Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

[Steve_O_Brien]

There is one true church which “subsists in” the Catholic Church (CCC 816). It also extends beyond the visible confines of the Catholic Church to include those partially united with the Catholic Church in baptism (CCC 818).

It’s contradictory to say that the Catholic Church is the one true Church while also saying that the true Church “extends beyond the visible confines of the Catholic Church.”

True, non-Catholic Christians are in imperfect communion with the one true Church (CCC 838). Nevertheless, this does ***not ***mean that they are ***members ***of the one true Church, or that their religious communities are ***parts ***of the one true Church. Those false understandings are precisely the errors that Catholics must avoid.

For example, even though committed and sincere non-Catholic Christians are to be found in the Southern Baptist Convention, that religious community is a sect, and **not **a part of the one true Church. Moreover, those brothers and sisters are ***not ***Catholics. They are not even ***semi-Catholics ***or quasi-Catholics. Either one is a Catholic or one is not.

To be a Catholic, one must profess the Catholic Faith in its entirety, and one must be in full communion with the successor of Peter and with one’s bishop.

Falling into confusion on any of these points is not the way to restore the unity of all Christians within Christ’s Church, which is the Catholic Church alone.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Gamera]

I agreee, falling into confusion is not the way to promote unity. That’s why it is so very important not to add words to established Catholic doctrine to make it say what we think it “really means.” “Outside the Church there is no salvation” is established doctrine. Falling into confusion by changing it to say, “Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation” is not the way to promote unity.

I never claimed that non-Catholics were “semi-Catholic” or “quasi-Catholic.” You’ve misunderstood me. They are NON-Catholics, and according to the Catholic Church, they can be saved.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

I agree, falling into confusion is not the way to promote unity. That’s why it is so very important not to add words to established Catholic doctrine to make it say what we think it “really means.” “Outside the Church there is no salvation” is established doctrine. Falling into confusion by changing it to say, “Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation” is not the way to promote unity.

Since the word “Church” in the dictum “Outside the Church there is no salvation” means “Catholic Church,” it is absolutely correct to say, “Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.”

There is only one true Church, the Catholic Church.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Gamera]

Since the word “Church” in the dictum “Outside the Church there is no salvation” means “Catholic Church,” it is absolutely correct to say, “Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.”

There is only one true Church, the Catholic Church.

Keep and spread the Faith.

Well, here’s the thing — the Catholic Church itself teaches that the one true church “subsists in” the Catholic Church. “The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after His resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care … This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, SUBSISTS IN (subsistit in) the Catholic Church …” CCC 816, quoting Lumen Gentium 8, 2.

“Subsists in” is not the same as “is,” and there’s a reason why the magesterium teaches us that the one true church “subsists in” the Catholic Church.

That’s why it is so important not to muddle the doctrine by adding words. The correct formulation is “Outside the church there is no salvation,” not “outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.” To paraphrase Mark Twain, the difference between the right word and nearly the right word is the difference between a lightning bolt and a lightning bug.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Everyone is morally obliged to investigate the Catholic Church and either to join her or to remain in her.

Rather unfortunate for those who are unaware of this obligation, eh? One hopes they get a slightly cooler place in Hell…

 

[anamchara]

Another excellent quote from

catholic-catechism.com/

This explains it even better.

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.1

IMO, this says salvation is possible outside of the Catholic Church under these circumstances. A practical example would be a Baptist, while not knowing Christ or his Gospel from a Catholic perspective, **nevertheless seeks God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience. **

While acknowledging the Catholic Church is the True Faith, it gives allowance to others that our honestly seeking Christ in their own way.

Mike, your on it! And I thought I would have to do a cut and paste again, thanks

 

[anamchara]

There is a tremendous need for Catholics to emphasize the two above truths during this time of confusion in the human elements of the Church. We must also combat the error of indifferentism (the idea that all religions are equally true or good), and we must make serious efforts to spread the true Faith to all non-Catholics.

I don’t get why in Gods name it is so important for us to make sure no one else gets into heaven. I would never spread something so ridiculous. I am so sick of hearing about indifferentism. I am very proud to be Catholic and I always make an effort to invite others to our Church. I wouldn’t win any converts telling them that they are not going to heaven if they aren’t Catholic.

Stop looking for ways to exclude and alienate people, we can catch more flies with honey.

There is salvation outside the Church, the Catechism seems to be clear on this.

 

[havemercy]

I don’t get why in Gods name it is so important for us to make sure no one else gets into heaven. I would never spread something so ridiculous. I am so sick of hearing about indifferentism. I am very proud to be Catholic and I always make an effort to invite others to our Church. I wouldn’t win any converts telling them that they are not going to heaven if they aren’t Catholic. Poppycock!

The error of indifferentism my fanny, stop looking for ways to exclude and alienate people, we can catch more flies with honey.

Wonderful, and I like the honey thing.

Except the following is just blatantly false, whether you like it or not:

There is salvation outside the Church, the Catechism makes it clear. I don’t understand why no one gets this.

If anyone is in fact saved, it is because they were somehow (grace permitting) connected to or a part of the body of Christ, that is, the Church. There is simply no way to be outside the Body of Christ and attain Eternal Beatitude! Those who argue to the contrary are indeed in direct opposition to the teaching of the Church and Gospel. Don’t make that error, how ever well intentioned you are.

Pax

 

[anamchara]

Wonderful, and I like the honey thing.

Except the following is just blatantly false, whether you like it or not:

If anyone is in fact saved, it is because they were somehow (grace permitting) connected to or a part of the body of Christ, that is, the Church. There is simply no way to be outside the Church and attain Eternal Beatitude.

I have to disagree, I believe there is salvation outside the Church as Mike has pointed out and the catechism makes clear, whether you or anyone like it or not, there is salvation. IMHO!

 

[anamchara]

Incase anyone missed it!

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.1

 

[Dan-Man916]

There is no salvation outside the Church because there is no salvation outside of Christ.
Christ is the One mediator and one savior and one redeemer.

The Church IS the Body of Christ. This isn’t just nice symbolic language. It is a mystical reality. Those who are saved by Christ, are saved THROUGH his body, which is the Church.

If one affirmd that Christ is the sole means of salvation, then one must also affirm that the Church, being his body, is how we are saved.

The second vatican council spoke at length about the nature of the Church, who is related to the Church by desire, and who can be saved (not who will be, an important distinction).

If we look at the other ecumenical councils of the Church, they all affirmed, infallibly that Outside the Church, there is no salvation. Vatican II further developed the teaching on the Church, especially in Lumen Gentium.

Most certainly non-Catholics can be saved. But only if they are incorporated into the body somehow, and persevere in charity. The Church doesn’t say how many in fact are.
I think it is probably acceptable for one to believe that the number of non-catholics that actually are saved can be anywhere from 0% to 100% and still consider ones self an orthodox Catholic.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Incase anyone missed it!

those too may achieve eternal salvation.1

Yes, MAY receive. It doesn’t say they actually do. It is a possibility only, which may or may not ever occur.

Pius XII encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi sheds much light on this, as this encyclical was written just a few years before Lumen Gentium.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

Well, here’s the thing — the Catholic Church itself teaches that the one true church “subsists in” the Catholic Church. “The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after His resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care … This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, SUBSISTS IN (subsistit in) the Catholic Church …” CCC 816, quoting Lumen Gentium 8, 2.

“Subsists in” is not the same as “is,” and there’s a reason why the magisterium teaches us that the one true church “subsists in” the Catholic Church.

That’s why it is so important not to muddle the doctrine by adding words. The correct formulation is “Outside the church there is no salvation,” not “outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.” To paraphrase Mark Twain, the difference between the right word and nearly the right word is the difference between a lightning bolt and a lightning bug.

On the contrary, “subsists in” in Lumen gentium 8 and CCC 816 means the same thing as “is.”

If this were not the case, then Pope Pius XII would have been seriously mistaken when he rejected the following errors in section 27 of his 1950 encyclical Humani generis:

***“Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.” ***

---

Please note that Pius XII uses the terms “Mystical Body of Christ,” “Roman Catholic Church,” and “true Church” in such a manner as to make clear that they are all synonyms of one another. He also implicitly accepts the validity of the formulation “Outside the true Church there is no salvation.”

Are we to accuse Pius XII of “muddling” Catholic doctrine?

---

Please don’t listen to me. Listen to Christ as he speaks through Pope Pius XII.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Dan-Man916]

On the contrary, “subsists in” in Lumen gentium 8 and CCC 816 means the same thing as “is.”

If this were not the case, then Pope Pius XII would have been seriously mistaken when he rejected the following errors in section 27 of his 1950 encyclical Humani generis:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but i disagree with that conclusion as the original draft used the word “is” and the final draft promulgated contained the word subists.

John Paul explicitly talks about this in the book, Crossing the Threshhold of life. Obviously, this isn’t a magesterial text, however, it does indicate the pontiff’s understandinf og the word subsist.

In the chapter titled, “Is Only Rome Right?”, John Paul II speaks about salvation and its relation to the Church.

First JPII explains:
the Christian doctrine of salvation and of the mediation of salvation, which always originates in God. “For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, / Christ Jesus, himself human” (1 Tm 2:5). “There is no salvation through any other name” (Acts 4:12).”

He then affirms:
It is therefore a revealed truth that there is salvation only and exclusively in Christ. The Church, inasmuch as it is the Body of Christ, is simply an instrument of this salvation.

John Paul II then explains what this means:
Man is saved in the Church by being brought into the Mystery of the Divine Trinity, into the mystery of the intimate life of God…
Thus, the Council is far from proclaiming any kind of ecclesiocentrism. Its teaching is Christocentric in all of its aspects, and therefore it is profoundly rooted in the Mystery of the Trinity.

JPII also affirms the council teaching of Vatican 2 affirming the necessity of the Church:
men cannot be saved who do not want to enter or remain in the Church, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded by God through Christ as a necessity" (Lumen Gentium 14).”

Then JPII goes on to explain exactly what Lumen Gentium is talking about in regards to their relation to the Church.
People are saved through the Church, they are saved in the Church, but they always are saved by the grace of Christ. Besides formal membership in the Church, the sphere of salvation can also include other forms of relation to the Church (emphasis mine). Paul VI expressed this same teaching in his first encyclical, Ecclesiam Suam, when he spoke of the various circles of the dialogue of salvation (cf. Ecclesiam Suam 101-117), which are the same as those indicated by the Council as the spheres of membership in and of relation to the Church. This is the authentic meaning of the well-known statement “Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

He also goes on to say:
It would be difficult to deny that this doctrine is extremely open. It cannot be accused of an ecclesiological exclusivism. Those who rebel against claims allegedly made by the Catholic Church probably do not have an adequate understanding of this teaching.

JPII then explains the authentic meaning of the word subsist in as opposed to “is”:
Although the Catholic Church knows that it has received the fullness of the means of salvation, it rejoices when other Christian communities join her in preaching the Gospel. This is the proper context for understanding the Council’s teaching that the Church of Christ "subsists" in the Catholic Church (cf. Lumen Gentium 8; Unitatis Redintegratio 4).

 

[Dan-Man916]

I would also point readers to the General Audience of Pope John Paul II on May, 31, 1995, in which he talks directly about this subject. Here is a link to that General audience:

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP950531.HTM

I would point out section 4.

4. Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom extra Ecclesiam nulla salus—“outside the Church there is no salvation”—stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition and was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull Unam sanctam of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and in the Council of Florence (Decretum pro jacobitis, DS 1351).
The axiom means that for those who are not ignorant of the fact that the Church has been established as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, there is an obligation to enter the Church and remain in her in order to attain salvation (cf. Lumen gentium, n. 14). For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. n. 10).
It is a “mysterious relationship”: mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her; it is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church founded by the Saviour.
In order to take effect, saving grace requires acceptance, co-operation, a yes to the divine gift: and this acceptance is, at least implicitly, oriented to Christ and the Church. Thus it can also be said that sine Ecclesia nulla salus—“without the Church there is no salvation”: belonging to the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, however implicitly and indeed mysteriously, is an essential condition for salvation.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I disagree with that conclusion as the original draft used the word “is” and the final draft promulgated contained the word subsists.

John Paul explicitly talks about this in the book, Crossing the Threshold of Life. Obviously, this isn’t a magisterial text; however, it does indicate the pontiff’s understanding of the word subsist.

In the citations of the words of Pope John Paul II, the Pontiff does ***not ***contradict the statement that the “subsists in” of Lumen gentium is equivalent to “is.” In other words, he does not contradict the truth that the one true Church of Christ ***is ***the Catholic Church.

What John Paul II is concerned to teach is that there are many truly Christian and grace-transmitting elements to be found among Christians who are outside the true Church. For example, our Orthodox brothers and sisters have real sacraments, above all the Holy Eucharist, which contains the Real Presence, and our Protestant brothers and sisters have most of the books of Sacred Scripture. A Catholic has to rejoice in the fact that non-Catholic Christians have these precious elements of the Christian life, even though the happy possession of these elements does not mean that those non-Catholics are members of the true Church, or that their churches and religious communities are parts of the one true Church.

On the contrary, those non-Catholics are merely related to, or are in imperfect communion with, the true Church, which is the Catholic Church alone. It is the responsibility of Catholics to help transform that mere relationship into membership, and that imperfect communion into full communion. This transformation is the true goal of ecumenism.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Steve,

My point is to say that it is theologically more precise to use the word “subsist”, than “is”.

There are reasons that the specific verb “is” was not used in Lumen Gentium. The point i am making is a very minute theological difference. If the Council Fathers used the word “is” in Lumen Gentium, then, theologically, it would exclude any elements of sanctification outside of the Church’s visible boundaries.
Which the Church of Christ IS the Catholic Church, the Mystical Body subsists in the Catholic Church visibly, and is also found in those in imperfect communion.

The invisible boundaries of the Body of Christ extend beyond the visible Church because those who are baptized are in a certain way incorporated into the Church, but are truly members of the Body.

If Lumen Gentium said “is”, then the terms Body of CHrist and Church would be exactly the same and interchangeable.
However, there is a distinction.

The Church is those who are baptized and profess the true faith as Mystici Corporis Christi affirms.

The Body of Christ is composed of all those baptized, whether in perfect communion or imperfect communion as affirmed in both Lumen Gentium as well as Unitatis Redintegratio.

That is the distinction I am making. To say that “subsist” theologically equals “is” isn’t technically correct.

 

[fix]

I think KK says it clearly:

                         Why did the Council use "subsists" instead of "is"? Because there is a                             level of ambiguity or misdirection in "is." Here's what I mean:
                        
                        When we say that the Catholic Church "is" Christ's Church, some people                             think--not entirely unreasonably--that we mean that no element of the                             Church can be found outside the Church. If so, this would imply that grace                             itself could not be found outside the Church.
                        
                        But we know that Protestants, for example, confer valid baptism (which                             confers grace), and we know that it is possible for a Protestant who falls                             into sin to repent and to be returned to a life of grace. We also know that                             "God wills the salvation of all men," and that means he must give "all men"                             enough grace to be saved, even if throughout life they remain outside the                             Church.
                        
                        Thus, something that properly "belongs" to the Catholic Church--grace--is                             found outside of its formal boundaries.
                        
                        The technical word "subsists" gets around this difficulty. Granted, it has                             a difficulty of its own. Some people think it means that the Catholic                             Church is just a subset of the bigger Church that Christ established. But                             this is not what the word really means. It means that the fullness of                             Christ's Church is found only in the Catholic Church, but it also means                             that certain elements of Christ's Church may be found elsewhere.

catholic.com/newsletters/kke_040615.asp

The Catholic Church is not some subset of the Church Christ founded. It is the only and true Church. Grace that properly belongs in Her may be found outside Her too.

 

[Dan-Man916]

fix,

thanks for posting that as that was pretty much what i was trying to say.

 

[fix]

fix,

thanks for posting that as that was pretty much what i was trying to say.

Well, you should really thank KK. I am simply a cutter and paster. I read the thread and was slightly confused. I was seeing fair points on all sides. Then I read what he said and it seemed to make sense. I am always grateful to learn more. Thanks to you and all here.