Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

[mikew262]

Wonderful, and I like the honey thing.

Except the following is just blatantly false, whether you like it or not:

If anyone is in fact saved, it is because they were somehow (grace permitting) connected to or a part of the body of Christ, that is, the Church. There is simply no way to be outside the Body of Christ and attain Eternal Beatitude! Those who argue to the contrary are indeed in direct opposition to the teaching of the Church and Gospel. Don’t make that error, how ever well intentioned you are.

Pax

First off, you are saying the Catechism is false? It reads pretty clear to me, and I happen to believe it. Secondly, pls remember you (and certain others) are talking from purely a Catholic perspective when you say the “Church”. Non-Catholic Christians do not believe the Catholic Church is the only way to salvation (in fact some say its our way to damnation) and it does not represent all Christians. The piece of catchism quoted, shows the Church recognizes this and provides an allowance for it.

I’m sorry if this is so hard to accept, but thats the way it is.

 

[fix]

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”.(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.
LUMEN GENTIUM

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.
Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life-that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is “the all-embracing means of salvation,” that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation.

UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

 

[Steven_Merten]

Even when the Church uses her God-given authority to exclude a Catholic from membership in the Mystical Body of Christ, she is not making a pronouncement on the salvation or damnation of the person being punished. Such a decision belongs to God alone, and is based on the condition of the person’s soul at death–a condition that God alone can judge, as Vatican II teaches in Gaudium et spes, section 28.

Excommunications, interdicts, and other penalties imposed by the Church are merely warnings
–but warnings that must be taken with the utmost seriousness.

The fundamental points involved in the dictum “Outside the Church there is no salvation” are these three:

1. No one can be saved–and this includes non-Catholics–without some kind of relationship (known at least to God) with the Catholic Church. The Church is the only Ark that can save people from the deluge.

Hello Steve,

Do you have a Church link which describes a Church belief in the existance of what you describe as, “some kind of relationship” in heaven which is outside of the bosom of the Church in heaven, where unabsolved anathematized people exist in heaven? "we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven",

It is my belief that when Jesus binds a soul to sin in heaven that that soul cannot go to heaven and that soul goes to hell. Jesus swears to the Apostles that anyone they call upon Him to bind to sin, Jesus will bind to sin in heaven. The Church punishment of anathema uses Christ’s sworn oath to bind a soul to sin in heaven of anyone Apostolic Successors call upon Him to do so. It is my belief that anyone whom Jesus does not forgive in heaven, due to His sworn oath to Apostolic Successors, goes to hell.

Is this “some kind of relationship”, which you describe as a relationship to Christ outside the bosom of the Church in heaven, where souls go to in heaven who are not forgiven by Jesus in heaven, due to Christ’s sworn oath to Apostolic Successors that He will not forgive in heaven anyone Apostolic Successors call upon Him to bind to sin in heaven?

I would think that such a place in heaven, “some kind of relationship” outside the bosom of the Church in heaven, does not exist. I would think that those who Jesus binds to sin in heaven, due to His sworn oath to Apostolic Successors, simply go to hell. Do you have a Church link describing, what you describe as “some kind of relationship”, outside the bosom of the Church in heaven, where people, who have not been forgiven by Jesus due to His sworn oath to Apostolic Successors, go to?

Anathema
**Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, **

**in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, **

we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians,

**we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, **

**we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate **,

Quoted from: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia - Anathema

**NAB MAT 16:13 **

I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
**NAB REV 1:16 **

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth,…

…I hold the keys of death and the nether world."
​

NAB JOH 20:20
If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound."

 

[Dan-Man916]

SteveMerten,

Anathemas ONLY apply to those who are first Catholic and fall away from the Catholic faith.
Those who were brought up in a Protestant tradition were never Catholic and so the Church proclaims that those anathemas DO NOT apply to them today.

Just thought you might like to know as it negates your argument.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

Do you have a Church link which describes a Church belief in the existance of what you describe as, “some kind of relationship” in heaven which is outside of the bosom of the Church in heaven, where unabsolved anathematized people exist in heaven? "we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven",

Again, the Church teaches–in Vatican II’s Gaudium et spes, section 28–that God alone judges internal guilt. This means that even an excommunicated, anathematized person may be subjectively guiltless in the eyes of God, and thus a potential candidate for heaven. Such a person could be sufficiently related to the Catholic Church to achieve salvation. Although not inside the Ark, he or she is, as it were, hanging from its side.

Please remember that it is one of the fundamental moral teachings of the Catholic Church that everyone is obliged to follow his or her conscience even if that conscience is erroneous (Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 1790).

As for some kind of relationship to the Catholic Church (including a relationship that is not membership in good standing) as an indispensable condition for salvation, please study carefully these sections of the new catechism: 846-848, 1260.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

I think KK says it clearly:

The Catholic Church is not some subset of the Church Christ founded. It is the only and true Church. Grace that properly belongs in Her may be found outside Her too.

Karl Keating’s explanation of “subsists in” is helpful. Please note that he says nothing to deny that the expression “subsists in,” understood as the Church understands it, means the same thing as “is.”

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Except that they don’t use the word “is”, they use the words “subsist in”, and because of that, we should be using the terminology the Church has chosen.

 

[mardukm]

I agree with Gamera – the proper teaching is “no salvation outside the Church.”(though Godzilla can slap Gamera 100 ways to Sunday )

I also believe that 1) all salvation has its Source from the Sacrifice of Christ; 2) all Grace and salvation is mediated THROUGH the Catholic Church, even to those outside her visible boundaries, Christian and non-Christian alike.

Since all salvation is from Christ, I theorize that Jesus, as God in the Eternal Moment, “continuously” preaches to the souls of the righteous dead who have never heard and rejected the message of the Gospel, or who have died in invincible ignorance while having lived their life according to the Natural Law written by God in the hearts of every human being, as the Scripture teaches. Is this tantamount to a “second chance” after death? I don’t believe so, because this will be their FIRST chance to hear the Gospel.

Comments?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

Except that they don’t use the word “is”, they use the words “subsist in”, and because of that, we should be using the terminology the Church has chosen.

As Pope Pius XII teaches in section 16 of the encyclical ***Humani generis, ***the Magisterium uses a variety of formulations to express the same doctrinal truth. As has already been noted, Pius XII also teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing (Humani generis, section 27).

From the perspective of orthodoxy, it is absolutely correct to say that the one true Church ***IS ***the Catholic Church. Nor does Vatican II say that this statement should no longer be made.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Dan-Man916]

From the perspective of orthodoxy, it is absolutely correct to say that the one true Church ***IS ***the Catholic Church. Nor does Vatican II say that this statement should no longer be made.

As long as it is understood in the light of the magisterial teachings of the Vatican council and one does not deny that elements of sanctification can be found in other ecclesial bodies that draw their efficacy from the Church of Christ. I am not saying that you are denying this, but it is better to be more clear than less clear.

We can say “real presence” and understand what it means. But Lutherans and Anglicans believe in the real presence, and yet their understanding of the real presence is incorrect because they do not affirm transubstantiation. Their concept of real presence is not the objectively true meaning of it.
So we avoid that same kind of misunderstanding of using “is” with the very precise language used in Lumen Gentium, which is “subsist in”.

 

[mikew262]

We can say “real presence” and understand what it means. But Lutherans and Anglicans believe in the real presence, and yet their understanding of the real presence is incorrect because they do not affirm transubstantiation. Their concept of real presence is not the objectively true meaning of it.
So we avoid that same kind of misunderstanding of using “is” with the very precise language used in Lumen Gentium, which is “subsist in”.

Incorrect or just different? To you and me (I do struggle with the concept, I admit), from a Catholic perspective, it’s incorrect, to them, it’s correct or just different.

Sorry, I don’t mean to derail the thread, but when I see these “we are right and they are wrong” comparisons, it nags on me. Just a weakness of mine.

 

[Steven_Merten]

SteveMerten,

Anathemas ONLY apply to those who are first Catholic and fall away from the Catholic faith.
Those who were brought up in a Protestant tradition were never Catholic and so the Church proclaims that those anathemas DO NOT apply to them today.

Just thought you might like to know as it negates your argument.

Hello Dan,

I am talking about whom ever is under anathema. How did your dicerning who suffers from Church anathema and who cannot suffer from Church anathema “negate” my argument?

I have read where only Catholics, not Protestants, can be anathematized out of the bosom of the Church. One has to wonder why a Protestant, enjoying all the benifits of salvation within the bosom of the Catholic Church, would ever want to convert to become a Catholic where they are exposed to the posibility of being cast out of the bosom of the Catholic Church? That, though, is another thread. Do only Catholics suffer from Church punishments?

I am just talking about those who fall under Church anathema in this thread.

 

[Dan-Man916]

I have read where only Catholics, not Protestants, can be anathematized out of the bosom of the Church. One has to wonder why a Protestant, enjoying all the benifits of salvation within the bosom of the Catholic Church, would ever want to convert to become a Catholic .

Hi StevenMerten,

Well, I don’t think that we can really say that Protestants enjoy the benefits of salvation (at least not all of them. They don’t have the Sacramentas to avail themselves to. How can they be forgiven apart from the Sacrament of Reconciliation?
How can they receive the benefit of the unity with the Body, Blood, Soul, and Dvinity of Christ apart from the Holy Eucharist, which they do not have. How can they enter into the paschal mystery if they do not offer themselves up in union with Christ at the Mass that makes Calvary present.

Pius XII seems to affirm this difficulty for Protestants in Mystici Corporis Christi in par. 103:

For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love.[197] Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger’s house, but to their own, their father’s home.

I would affirm that the only way to fully embrace Christ is to come home to the unity of the Church…

 

[Steven_Merten]

Again, the Church teaches–in Vatican II’s Gaudium et spes, section 28–that God alone judges internal guilt. This means that even an excommunicated, anathematized person may be subjectively guiltless in the eyes of God, and thus a potential candidate for heaven. Such a person could be sufficiently related to the Catholic Church to achieve salvation. Although not inside the Ark, he or she is, as it were, hanging from its side.

Please remember that it is one of the fundamental moral teachings of the Catholic Church that everyone is obliged to follow his or her conscience even if that conscience is erroneous (Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 1790).

As for some kind of relationship to the Catholic Church (including a relationship that is not membership in good standing) as an indispensable condition for salvation, please study carefully these sections of the new catechism: 846-848, 1260.

Keep and spread the Faith.

Hello

Do you have a link the this “new” catechism? I believe we are talking about the “new” catechism that Pope John Paul II wrote in 1983. Is this right? It seems that a “hanging on the side” (of the Church) outside of the bosom of the Church, in heaven is not a concept of the Catechism of the Catholic Church before 1983.

I mean, I do not think that Pope Eugene IV, at the counsil of Florence, would have approved of such a Cathecism. Pope Eugene IV tells us that even if a baptized Christian sheds his blood for Jesus, he will burn in hell if not within the bosom of the Church. I would certianly think that, if anyone would be hanging out on the side of the Church in heaven, it would be a baptized non-Catholic who shed his life for Jesus. Yet Pope Eugene IV tells us no. This Christian, who lost his life for Jesus, will burn in hell with the devil and his angels, if he is not within the bosom of the Church.

Do you have anything pre-1983 Catechism, like a couple hundred years ago, which would indicate this “new” Catechism concept of hanging from the side of the Church, outside the bosom of the Church, for salvation?:
This means that even an excommunicated, anathematized person may be subjectively guiltless in the eyes of God, and thus a potential candidate for heaven. Such a person could be sufficiently related to the Catholic Church to achieve salvation. Although not inside the Ark, he or she is, as it were, hanging from its side.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence (ex-Cathedra and infallible):
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church” (“Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra).

 

[mikew262]

Hi StevenMerten,

Well, I don’t think that we can really say that Protestants enjoy the benefits of salvation (at least not all of them. They don’t have the Sacramentas to avail themselves to. How can they be forgiven apart from the Sacrament of Reconciliation?
How can they receive the benefit of the unity with the Body, Blood, Soul, and Dvinity of Christ apart from the Holy Eucharist, which they do not have. How can they enter into the paschal mystery if they do not offer themselves up in union with Christ at the Mass that makes Calvary present.

As a Catholic, I won’t say that. I suspect the majority of Protestants feel very secure in their faith and their relationship with Christ. I certainly won’t challenge it. Even the Church acknowledges, those outside the Church may find salvation.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hi StevenMerten,

Well, I don’t think that we can really say that Protestants enjoy the benefits of salvation…

Hello Dan-Man,

Will you agree that Protestants are withing the bosom of the Catholic Church for salvation but outside the reach of Church punishments which can cast them out of the bosom of the Church? Only Catholics, not Protestants, can be cast out of the bosom of the Catholic Church through Church punishments. Is this correct?

Do only Catholics suffer from Church punishments?

 

[mikew262]

Hello

Do you have a link the this “new” catechism? I believe we are talking about the “new” catechism that Pope John Paul II wrote in 1983. Is this right? It seems that a “hanging on the side” (of the Church) outside of the bosom of the Church, in heaven is not a concept of the Catechism of the Catholic Church before 1983.

I mean, I do not think that Pope Eugene IV, at the counsil of Florence, would have approved of such a Cathecism. Pope Eugene IV tells us that even if a baptized Christian sheds his blood for Jesus, he will burn in hell if not within the bosom of the Church. I would certianly think that, if anyone would be hanging out on the side of the Church in heaven, it would be a baptized non-Catholic who shed his life for Jesus. Yet Pope Eugene IV tells us no. This Christian, who lost his life for Jesus, will burn in hell with the devil and his angels, if he is not within the bosom of the Church.

Do you have anything pre-1983 Catechism, like a couple hundred years ago, which would indicate this “new” Catechism concept of hanging from the side of the Church, outside the bosom of the Church, for salvation?:
This means that even an excommunicated, anathematized person may be subjectively guiltless in the eyes of God, and thus a potential candidate for heaven. Such a person could be sufficiently related to the Catholic Church to achieve salvation. Although not inside the Ark, he or she is, as it were, hanging from its side.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence (ex-Cathedra and infallible):
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church” (“Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra).

catholic-catechism.com/?searchtext=847

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.1

Is this what you are looking for?

 

[Gamera]

[/INDENT]Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence (ex-Cathedra and infallible):

… Cantate Domino

Huh? What makes you think this particular papal bull was “ex cathedra and infallible?” What source says that? I must have missed something major.
​

​

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

I mean, I do not think that Pope Eugene IV, at the counsil of Florence, would have approved of such a Cathecism. Pope Eugene IV tells us that even if a baptized Christian sheds his blood for Jesus, he will burn in hell if not within the bosom of the Church. I would certianly think that, if anyone would be hanging out on the side of the Church in heaven, it would be a baptized non-Catholic who shed his life for Jesus. Yet Pope Eugene IV tells us no. This Christian, who lost his life for Jesus, will burn in hell with the devil and his angels, if he is not within the bosom of the Church.

Do you have anything pre-1983 Catechism, like a couple hundred years ago, which would indicate this “new” Catechism concept of hanging from the side of the Church, outside the bosom of the Church, for salvation?:
This means that even an excommunicated, anathematized person may be subjectively guiltless in the eyes of God, and thus a potential candidate for heaven. Such a person could be sufficiently related to the Catholic Church to achieve salvation. Although not inside the Ark, he or she is, as it were, hanging from its side.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence (ex-Cathedra and infallible):
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church” (“Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra).

catholic-catechism.com/?searchtext=847

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.1

Is this what you are looking for?

So the new Catechism is false, then? This does make it a great deal harder for honest inquirers to learn about Catholicism. I find it quite alarming that the RCIA program at the local Cathedral uses this new Catechism. As some have pointed out, the new Catechism is not infallible, however, so I guess the old teaching must stand. Therefore, it is the obligation of every Catholic to protest the existence of the new Catechism and seek out older teachings. Thoughts?

 

[Steven_Merten]

So the new Catechism is false, then? This does make it a great deal harder for honest inquirers to learn about Catholicism. I find it quite alarming that the RCIA program at the local Cathedral uses this new Catechism. As some have pointed out, the new Catechism is not infallible, however, so I guess the old teaching must stand. Therefore, it is the obligation of every Catholic to protest the existence of the new Catechism and seek out older teachings. Thoughts?

Hello lambic Pen,

I would not say that the “new” Catechism is false. It is simply different from the previous Catechism. Jesus gave the Apostolic Successors the power to bind and to loost.

I think it is confusing to bring up a title “no salvation outside the Church” from the old Catechism and then try to redefine it in terms of the new Catechism. If God’s authorized Church leader chooses a different path from previous God authorized Church leaders, then this is the perogative that God has authorized him to be allowed to do. I don’t think we have to run around trying to confuse everyone into thinking that the old and the new two concepts are identical. Which seems to be the point of this thread.

The Church used to put it like this: The Church Teaches Ex Cathedra: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire “which was prepared for the devil, and his angels,” (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)
Pope John Paul II puts it like this:The following is a quote of Pope John Paul II’s statement in English to those gathered in St. Peter’s square on Wednesday, December 6th, 2000, in which he briefly summarized his message of the day, “FOR US, THE KINGDOM IS GRACE”:

…The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure] the sufferings of life; will enter God’s kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom. In the Lord’s prayer we say ‘Thy kingdom come’. May this be the hope that sustains us and inspires our Christian life and world."
We confess with the Apostle Paul “that there is salvation in no other name” (Acts 4:12). The “Dominus Iesus” declaration, in the wake of Vatican II, shows that with this the salvation of non-Christians is not denied, but explains its ultimate source in Christ, in whom God and man are united. God gives light to all in a way appropriate to their interior and environmental situation, granting them saving grace through ways known to him…

…Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation****in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples,