"Outside the Chuch..." I get it BUT

[northstar3]

OK, first off, hello-hi-and good day I am in the beginning stages of converting to the Catholic faith (thanks be to God). While there are a number of things that I, of course, am trying to learn and understand, one stands out above the rest (at least at present). I’ve tried very much to find a sound explanation for this, but haven’t as of yet, so I thought I’d pose it to those on this forum. Chances are this may be a long post, but I’ll do my best to keep it as short as possible.

“EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS” (No Salvation Outside the Church)

I had read a fair amount from, well, lets say “stricter” interpretations of this, as well as from other interpretations (yes I’m trying to avoid labels). While I was finding a “looser” interpretation of this difficult (that is, something that would go: “one doesn’t necessarily need be a card-carrying Catholic” to obtain the mercy of God"), I came across an article last night that seemed to put it into pretty fair terms: [christorchaos.com/OutisdetheChurchThereIsNoSalvationbyFatherStepanic h.htm](http://www.christorchaos.com/OutisdetheChurchThereIsNoSalvationbyFatherStepanic h.htm)

So here’s my current dilemma:

It’s possible that there are those who are not visible members of the Catholic Church who obtain salvation from God…ok. Then I’ve got a couple questions. (1) If this is so, why are certain groups named specifically as being outside the Church in Pope Eugene IV’s Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed ex cathedra: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’.?

If these things are so, why would a certain Popes praise other religions?? Not only that, but point in case: The prayer gatherings in Assisi. That is, when the Pope (JPII) not only invited other religions to come and pray together, but specifically cleared out any Christian symbols from the rooms they were to pray in (removing and/or covering up crucifixes, etc)? Also, what of certain clergy (including Popes) accepting blessings from pagan priests and priestesses?

I understand charitable dialogue, I really do. But when is one “crossing the line?” OK, so there may be people who are given the gift of salvation who are not visible members of the Church, but it seems that so many Catholics today (laity, clergy, Popes(?)) go beyond that thought and encourage people to be true to their false religions. To tell them it is not necessary to convert to the Catholic faith (stories after stories of priests and bishops telling people who want to convert, sometimes thousands, that they shouldn’t) seems a very, VERY big dis-service to them and their souls. It’s like saying: yes the Catholic religion is the only religion given to man by God to be practiced, it is where God gives His grace in a way unattainable by your religion…but don’t feel compelled to search out the truth and convert, you’re fine where you are.

(2) How does this tie-in with “the few saved.” Again, it seems that the idea prevailing in the Church today is that most people will be saved. Which, a quick look through the writings of the
Saints and Doctors of the Church, along with Scripture, would seem to show the opposite - that is, that the majority are lost and not saved. (For an example, see “The Little Number of Those Saved” by St. Leonard of Port Maurice, available online here: olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml

Does any of this make sense? I’m not going on the attack here, honestly, I’m really just trying to make some sense of this all…which has proved to be difficult at times.

I hope there are some of you out there who can offer some clear thoughts concerning this topic, thanks!

 

[rwoehmke]

Taking number 2. first, I don’t believe that anyone, including the Majesterium, has a clue as to how many are saved or lost. There are opinions aplenty, but no one on this earth really knows. We only have somewhat of a handle on a few, those proclaimed Saints, who we are sure were saved.

What has happened with many of those earlier teachings is that they were absolutely correct in saying that “outside the Church there is no salvation.” What has changed is our understanding of what it means to be outside the Church. It doesn’t change the basic teaching, but clarifies our understanding of just waht it means.

Some mistakenly use this new understanding to affirm people in other Faiths where salvation is possible, but not necessarily more assured. Anyone who knows that the Catholic Church is the true church of Jesus Christ is required in conscience to join it. To turn these people away is absolutely wrong.

 

[BlestOne]

First… in 1441… there were only the groups the pope mentioned… there were no Protestants, so that narrows the field down alot. There were pagans, there were Jews, There were Muslims, and there were schismatics and heretics that used to be Catholics. I say this by means of explaining that most of Europe was Catholic at this time. They had no mass communications and they had not the support to evangelize the whole world… Look at the OT when the Jews segregated themselves as to keep themselves “pure” of others that were not considered to be the “chosen” doesn’t it look similar to what we were doing in the 1400’s? At only 1300+ yrs after Christ we were still babies in our faith…(which incidentally, puts us at toddler stage now). We are growing and learning… the teachings aren’t changing… our understanding is.

Now about the next part… even good men can err when trying to be charitable. It isn’t for me to say that they were wrong, but lets look at their hearts not just their actions. I can’t persecute them on their motives… no matter that I may disagree with what they did.

As for the “few” saved… we will not know in this world who they will be. We can conjecture, and even make educated guesses sometimes. My theory is that the saved will be especially humble and will not believe at first that they are part of the “few” so look for the humble of heart if you want to know who the “chosen” are.

 

[Todd_Easton]

1. The pope’s declaration presupposes that the pagans, Jews, heretics and schismatics mentioned are not invincibly ignorant of Christ and his Church but culpable for being outside the Catholic Church and so destined for eternal fire.

I suggest you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the subject of “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” paragraphs 846-848.

 

[CentralFLJames]

“EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS” (No Salvation Outside the Church)

I had read a fair amount from, well, lets say “stricter” interpretations of this, as well as from other interpretations (yes I’m trying to avoid labels)…

So here’s my current dilemma:

It’s possible that there are those who are not visible members of the Catholic Church who obtain salvation from God…ok. Then I’ve got a couple questions…

You ask some difficult questions. To answer these with an answer that appears credible could require a lot of background discussion to set up the proper context for each of the things you reference.

Nonetheless I will try to give a brief answer to what are actualy layered question without going into a lot of detail.

BTW this post looks a lot like one made last year here:
How is this Hellish Papal Bull not Infallible

(1) Why are certain groups named specifically as being outside the Church in Pope Eugene IV’s Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed ex cathedra: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’.?

Part of your problem here is that you cut an important part out of the original content of what is actually not a Papal Bull at all - but a dogma formed at an ecumenical Council - The Council of Florence. Here is the part you missed:

… but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their alms-givings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his alms-giving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

Anybody who is not joined before death to Christ in some way is simply not in His Church and thus cannot be saved. Protestants actually believe the same thing - “one must believe to be saved”. They just don’t think of it explicitly. The subtle differences are in knowing what are the different ways one can be joined to Christ and to his Church? Protestants for example, through baptism are whether they like it or not or or aware of it are imperfect members of the Catholic Church (this is not to imply that all Catholics are perfect members either).

The requirements for salvation are correctly stated - that one must be joined to the body of Christ through His Church. Only God knows for certain who are perfect or imperfect members of His church and only God judges who such are. The groups specifically identified were probably seen as gravely deficient in their relationship with the The One Catholic Church due to the estranged relationship. It is a warning that those that remain imperfectly joined to the Church and in faith communities that are seen as gravely deficient are at serious risk.

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

If these things are so, why would a certain Popes praise other religions?? Not only that, but point in case: The prayer gatherings in Assisi. That is, when the Pope (JPII) not only invited other religions to come and pray together, but specifically cleared out any Christian symbols from the rooms they were to pray in (removing and/or covering up crucifixes, etc)? Also, what of certain clergy (including Popes) accepting blessings from pagan priests and priestesses?

I think we have to be adult here and recognize that Popes are not only religious leaders but also heads of state. They have certain diplomatic relationships and need to keep a congenial dialog with those who are imperfectly joined to The Church in order to have any real hope of evangelizing them for their own benefit.
It is certainly permissible to acknowledge a religion that imperfectly accepts one Creator God over hedonism or paganism. Everyone has to start somewhere in their faith journey. Few Christians understand the fullness of their faith on day one and so it is true also that some cultures are in an early formation of their understanding of God - but are a world apart from being total unbelievers. We should acknowledge where we have common agreement - God, Creator of all.

I can’t speak for the details of the pope clearing out religious articles and catering to other beliefs though. I suspect there are probably quite a few Protestants or Catholics who remove the dusty bible from the hallway book display and crosses and “WWJD” Posters from the walls at home when they host office parties with secular members present etc. Is that a really bad thing?

(2) How does this tie-in with “the few saved.” Again, it seems that the idea prevailing in the Church today is that most people will be saved. Which, a quick look through the writings of the
Saints and Doctors of the Church, along with Scripture, would seem to show the opposite - that is, that the majority are lost and not saved. (For an example, see “The Little Number of Those Saved” by St. Leonard of Port Maurice, available online here: olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml

We don’t know for sure how many are saved. There are competing ideas in scripture about this. In the OT Abraham’s descendants are to be as uncountable as the stars in the heavens or the sand on the seashore. Jesus tells us that few enter by the narrow gate and many take the wide gate to destruction (but he does not tell us how many he pulls out of that trap). We don’t need to be concerned about salvation lotto - if we want to be saved we can choose to respond to our call and put our RSVP into Jesus’ hand and say " I choose you to be custodian of my soul".

What is relevant here is in recognizing that there are many temptations and pitfalls in life that are obstacles to our salvation. To improve our chances we must try to avoid sin and live by Christian virtues and OBEY not just believe Jesus’ teachings and commandments. But it is ONLY in the Catholic Church that we have 7 distinct and special channels of sacramental graces to help us. This is why it is much easier to attain to perfection and unity with Christ while here alive through His Church. Some who are imperfectly joined to Christ through baptism in other faith communities will make it - but its much harder since they do not have all the sacraments. But those who are consciously outside the Church knowing in their hearts that The Catholic Church is the fullness of faith - are living in a certain condition of grave sin.

Hope this helps,
James

 

[allischalmers]

Who is saved or not saved is entirely up to God, it is his chosing not the churches, SORRY

 

[Genesis315]

In regards to the Bull from the Council of Florence (promulated by Pope Eugene IV), notice that it is speaking of those existing outside the Church and then it says they cannot be saved unless they are joined to the Church before death. That’'s true–no one can be saved unless they are joined to the Church before death because cut off from the Body of Christ we do not draw life from Him. It’s not talking about those who may be united the Body in good faith seeking to surrender themselves to God, but who are mistaken as to true revelation.

Popes praise what is good and where we have common ground with other people, but not where they go wrong.

Be careful of certain websites that use a hermeneutic of suspicion and clip quotes here and there. (the reason I say this is the bull you quote is from an ecumenical Council, but those kinds of groups quote it as a papal definition because the infallibility of an ecumenical Council was taught explicitly by the supreme Magisterium first by Vatican II, which they reject).

 

[CentralFLJames]

Who is saved or not saved is entirely up to God, it is his chosing not the churches, SORRY

Scripture reference please alli.
Do you think that God/Jesus can not choose who he wants to be in His Church? Don’t you think you are trying to limit God with a private opinion that can’t be substantiated by scripture? SORRY.

James

 

[Genesis315]

Here, Pope John Paul II explains this well, citing the Bull you do (and others).

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html

Essentially, the purpose of evangelization is to persuade the world to accept divine grace and surrender themselves completely to the will and love of God (this will and love is manifest in the faith and life of the Church). Some may already do this, but are ignorant or mistaken as to His will–they are already united to the Church in a particular way, but knowledge of the Gospel fulfills their desires, allows them to develop that grace to the fullest, and adhere more strongly to Christ.

Since we mere mortals cannot judge, we share the Gospel with all regardless.

Remember, when Christ is born, the angel brings glad tidings to men of good will, not men of perfect knowledge. We are not Gnostics, but we are also not religious indifferentists. We persuade all to actively unite their wills with God’s and we provide the means for those already with good will to fulfill it and strengthen it.

I hope that helps!

 

[allischalmers]

Scripture reference please alli.
Do you think that God/Jesus can not choose who he wants to be in His Church? Don’t you think you are trying to limit God with a private opinion that can’t be substantiated by scripture? SORRY.

James

I think that you misunderstood what I wrote. What I meant was that God choses some to receive salvation and not others, it’s called divine election and it is Biblical.
Now some will say that God would be unjust it that were so. But if God were totally just there would be no one saved because there is no one that deserves to be saved.

 

[Genesis315]

Now some will say that God would be unjust it that were so. But if God were totally just there would be no one saved because there is no one that deserves to be saved.

That’s not why people would say God is unjust. It is true that none of us deserves it, but God is love and therefore by definition He seeks what is best for us (that communion of love with Him–he who abides in love abides in Him–we become partakers of the divine nature, which is love)–if He did not offer the means to the ultimate good to some persons, He would not be seeking their ultimate good and therefore not love them–that is contrary to His very essence. We are damned when we cling to our sins and the destruction they cause when God has offered us the means to turn to Him instead. God still loves the damned, their pain is caused by their own sins and their refusal to love Him.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I think that you misunderstood what I wrote. What I meant was that God choses some to receive salvation and not others, it’s called divine election and it is Biblical.
Now some will say that God would be unjust it that were so. But if God were totally just there would be no one saved because there is no one that deserves to be saved.

No - God calls all men to salvation. While God knows in His omniscience who will respond to His call and who will reject Him God predestines no one to damnation.

From the Catholic Catechism
30 "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."5 Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, “an upright heart”, as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.

46 When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arrive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything.

47 The Church teaches that the one true God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty from his works, by the natural light of human reason (cf. Vatican Council I, can. 2 § 1: DS 3026),

Thus man has been given every natural means to seek and discover God. Also true is the fact that we each can all announce God to our fellow man (and are in fact obliged to do so since all are called) - even to those who are inclined to turn a deaf ear.

James

 

[SemperPax]

I can’t speak for the details of the pope clearing out religious articles and catering to other beliefs though. I suspect there are probably quite a few Protestants or Catholics who remove the dusty bible from the hallway book display and crosses and “WWJD” Posters from the walls at home when they host office parties with secular members present etc. Is that a really bad thing?

Personally, I think it is a bad thing. Recall: “He who confesses me before men, the same shall I confess before my Father in heaven.” I am not saying you have to cram Catholicism down the throats of non-Catholic (or even Christian) guests, but I would not make any changes to things in my home for their benefit…or detriment (e.g., I wouldn’t take down the little crucifix and put up a larger one in its place, LOL.)

I find it especially troubling if the stories of JPII hiding/removing Catholic items in rooms is true…makes me recall:

**2 Corinthians 6:14-17: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers [in Christ]: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial [Baal]? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel…Wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.” **

and

1 Corinthians 10:20-21: “But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.” Again, the Gods of the Gentile Pagan religions were perceived as devils.

Pagans, animists, etc. weren’t worshipping God in those rooms…

 

[CentralFLJames]

Personally, I think it is a bad thing. Recall: “He who confesses me before men, the same shall I confess before my Father in heaven.” I am not saying you have to cram Catholicism down the throats of non-Catholic (or even Christian) guests, but I would not make any changes to things in my home for their benefit…or detriment (e.g., I wouldn’t take down the little crucifix and put up a larger one in its place, LOL.)

I find it especially troubling if the stories of JPII hiding/removing Catholic items in rooms is true…makes me recall:

**2 Corinthians 6:14-17: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers [in Christ]: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial [Baal]? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel…Wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.” **

and

1 Corinthians 10:20-21: “But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.” Again, the Gods of the Gentile Pagan religions were perceived as devils.

Pagans, animists, etc. weren’t worshipping God in those rooms…

Well if the pontiff knew that one of the people that was coming was possessed and knew that the religious articles would cause that one to go into a conniption fit and disrupt the entire opportunity to make headway in improving dialog with non-Catholics it might be worth it.

Kidding.

I do know that Muslim leaders will never consent to being seen in the presence of the cross or crucifix and the pontiff may have cleared the room to prevent photographs getting out that would embarrass the clerics back home and lead to riots and fatwahs and such. The whole Muslim intolerance thing is so difficult to deal with and even moderate clerics don’t want to risk agitating the fundamentalist. I say that in certain cases its pragmatic to facilitate rather than not have a meeting and miss out on all opportunities for productive dialog.

James

 

[northstar3]

Many thanks for the responses, very helpful indeed When I get some time I’ll read through the provided links.

Thanks again.

 

[rwoehmke]

Scripture reference please alli.
Do you think that God/Jesus can not choose who he wants to be in His Church? Don’t you think you are trying to limit God with a private opinion that can’t be substantiated by scripture? SORRY.

James

[John 6:44] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day.

 

[allischalmers]

John 10 ; 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of MY SHEEP

 

[CentralFLJames]

[John 6:44] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day.

Since you are teaching RCIA rwoemke can you please reconcile the apparent contradiction you seem to want to incte by quoting that verse against my statement to the other person with the following catechism?

From the Catholic Catechism
30 "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."5 Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, “an upright heart”, as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.

James

 

[Genesis315]

No one can come to the Father unless He is drawn by Him–and God draws all men. The above verse requires to humbly admit that we do not come to Him of our own power and merit.

To alli’s post, those who have obstinately hardened their hearts to grace do believe because they do not seek to do the will of the Father (Christ’s sheep are those that seek to do the will of Father.)