'Outside the Church, there is no Salvation' question

[fabio_rocha]

5 family members of mine were raised catholic, all of them has the sacraments (except holy orders and anointing of the sick) but they don’t go to mass, instead they go to a Christian service. the reason they go is because it makes them feel closer to God, plus they had bad experiences with catholic priests and they misunderstands some Church teachings and some gets repulsed by some dark history moments. they’re good people, they do more works than some catholic family members of mine. by that, can they achieve salvation?

 

[ahs]

Salvation is through Christ, Who gave us the Church to lead us to Him and give us our “Daily Bread” and teach us to live Christian lives and provide the Sacraments that He gave for us. That Church happens to be the Church that is today called the “Catholic Church”. That is what must be understood when we hear “all salvation comes through the Catholic Church”.

Whether a person is “good” person, or how they “feel” about a certain type of servive, or how many works they do compared to others, or whether they feel poorly about “dark” times in history…these are not relevant to whether they are “saved”.

 

[SaintFrancis333]

If protestants and other non Catholics are saved they are saved “in spite” of their erroneous beliefs, not “because” of them. It is ignorance that might save them. Those who know what Catholics believe it and deny it or stay outside the Church are willfully choosing to deny Christ’s will. We can’t say 100% who is saved or not but with what has been revealed I would not hold my breath on people whose arrogance blinds them to God. They serve their interpretation of God, not God Himself. How much worse for Catholics who abandon Truth for falsehood and man made religions of protestantism?

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

God is the judge, but yes, of course, they can be saved. The Catechism specifically says

“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”

So it is their faith in Christ and their baptism that tie them to the Church although in an imperfect communion.

The Catechism goes on to say:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:"

This is not to say that you should just give up praying that they may return to the Catholic Church (in full communion) or help them to understand her teachings. We are saved by God’s grace and there is no greater source of grace than the Sacraments. Each Sacrament has its particular purpose, but once you’ve been baptized, it is so important to receive the Lord in the Eucharist and receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation. These are graces that non-Catholics do not receive and they are life-giving and soul cleansing gifts of God.

 

[JM3]

5 family members of mine were raised catholic, all of them has the sacraments (except holy orders and anointing of the sick) but they don’t go to mass, instead they go to a Christian service. the reason they go is because it makes them feel closer to God, plus they had bad experiences with catholic priests and they misunderstands some Church teachings and some gets repulsed by some dark history moments. they’re good people, they do more works than some catholic family members of mine. by that, can they achieve salvation?

Not unless they repent before they die.

CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

(336 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5)

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Not unless they repent before they die.

CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

(336 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5)

We must all repent. But if you mean repent leaving the Catholic Church, then I think you are missing one important part of the text-- the part you didn’t bold. It says that they must know that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ. If they do not know it, then it is not a mortal sin.

As I’m sure you know, there are three criteria for mortal sin: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent (ccc 1857). While it seems clear that grave matter and consent are met, full knowledge is something that only God can judge. I would not presume that the people in question have full knowledge. Furthermore, it is clear to me that many, many people in the Catholic Church are not properly catechized. I see that here in the forums all the time. Without proper education, a person does not have sufficient knowledge when it comes to making the decision to find another church. (I’m not saying they do or do not have full knowledge-- only that we shouldn’t presume that they do and assume they are in mortal sin by leaving the Church)

 

[JM3]

I would not presume that the people in question have full knowledge.

Nor should you presume that they do not. The action, therefore, to take is to correct their errors and bring them home.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Nor should you presume that they do not. The action, therefore, to take is to correct their errors and bring them home.

I agree, and in my original post I also said we should pray for their return and try to help them understand the Church’s teachings.

 

[Zackeera]

Simply put, salvation comes through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” Romans 1:16

One does not need any ties with the Catholic Church in order to obtain salvation. For they must repent and believe in Jesus Christ, that He died in their place for their sins, was buried and then resurrected on the third day.

 

[SaintFrancis333]

Simply put, salvation comes through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” Romans 1:16

One does not need any ties with the Catholic Church in order to obtain salvation. For they must repent and believe in Jesus Christ, that He died in their place for their sins, was buried and then resurrected on the third day.

And where do the Gospels come from? The Catholic Church. Christ created a Church. He did “not” create a book. Scriptures are less than half the picture. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus Est. Protestants and other non Catholics do not have the Real Presence of Christ in te Eucharist. Christ Himself said He who does not eat the flesh of the son of man has no life in him. Go ahead and keep telling yourself that was symbolic. I’ll pray for you.

 

[Zackeera]

And where do the Gospels come from? The Catholic Church. Christ created a Church. He did “not” create a book. Scriptures are less than half the picture. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus Est. Protestants and other non Catholics do not have the Real Presence of Christ in te Eucharist. Christ Himself said He who does not eat the flesh of the son of man has no life in him. Go ahead and keep telling yourself that was symbolic. I’ll pray for you.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ came from God Himself. He inspired His apostles, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to write the true accounts of the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. As 2 Timothy 3:16 says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God…” Much scripture was written well before the Catholic church came into existence.

 

[JM3]

The Gospel of Jesus Christ came from God Himself. He inspired His apostles, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to write the true accounts of the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. As 2 Timothy 3:16 says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God…” Much scripture was written well before the Catholic church came into existence.

The Church was born from the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the cross and it is this Church, by it’s God given authority, that tells you what is Scripture and what is not. If not for the Church, you would not have Scripture or, even, know what Scripture is. If not for the Church, the word ‘scripture’ would have no meaning to you. Which non-Catholic community spent hours and years, before the invention of the printing press, carefully copying every letter of Scripture, so that it would be known to you?

There is only one Church, one Body of Christ, and there is no salvation outside of it.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus created His Catholic Church before He ascended into heaven. It was revealed in a big way to the disciples at Pentecost.

I believe that there are FEWER Invincibly ignorant people than a lot of people would guess.

Look at it this way–a seven year old at their first confession has KNOWLEDGE of the sins that they are confessing to a priest.

IF that is indeed true then couldn’t it also be true that there are many Protestants who do reject the Catholic faith with knowledge of it that means that they AREN’T invincibly ignorant.

I converted to the Catholic Church Easter of 2011. I can tell you that from my experience that there is a much better chance at avoiding MORTAL sin and HELL with the sacraments of the Catholic Church.

I have life in me BECAUSE of Jesus in the Eucharist!

Our Protestant brethren do not have that.

It is ALWAYS better that a person has the Fullness of Truth that is the Catholic faith.

Always remember that and always invite those who do not know the faith to come to Mass–and also ask Catholics that have fallen away to come back to the church.

When Jesus judges us hopefully there will be some people that will escape hell and make it to heaven because of our witness.

We should always thank Jesus for giving us the Catholic Church!

The Catholic church is the greatest thing that ever happened to me in my entire life!

You get closest to Jesus in the CatholicChurch!

 

[Zackeera]

The Church was born from the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the cross and it is this Church, by it’s God given authority, that tells you what is Scripture and what is not. If not for the Church, you would not have Scripture or, even, know what Scripture is. If not for the Church, the word ‘scripture’ would have no meaning to you. Which non-Catholic community spent hours and years, before the invention of the printing press, carefully copying every letter of Scripture, so that it would be known to you?

There is only one Church, one Body of Christ, and there is no salvation outside of it.

“Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” John 14:6.

I am not in the Catholic Church, yet by grace, through faith in Him, I have confidence that Jesus Christ who died in my place on the cross for my sins is giving me salvation. He has done what I could not do for myself. In response, I am leaning on Him and trusting in Him to take me through each day in my life.

 

[JM3]

Matthew 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

 

[R_C]

I am not in the Catholic Church, yet by grace, through faith in Him, I have confidence that Jesus Christ who died in my place on the cross for my sins is giving me salvation.

Where does the authority of priests and the Church comes from?

Judas saith to him, not the Iscariot: Lord, how is it, that you manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?

And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given."

Again he said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.”

“Father …] As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.”

“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

The ministry of Catholic priests is that of the presbyters mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 15:6, 23). They were ordained by the laying on of hands (1 Tm 4:14, 5:22), they preached and taught the flock (1 Tm 5:17), and they administered sacraments (Jas 5:13-15).

Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They sometimes appear to be called “evangelists” in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as “presbyters” or “elders.” In fact, the English term “priest” is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6).

Although the terms “bishop,” “priest,” and “deacon” were somewhat fluid in the apostolic age, by the beginning of the second century they had achieved the fixed form in which they are used today to designate the three offices whose functions are clearly distinct in the New Testament.

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[R_C]

The ministry of Catholic priests is that of the presbyters mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 15:6, 23). They were ordained by the laying on of hands (1 Tm 4:14, 5:22), they preached and taught the flock (1 Tm 5:17), and they administered sacraments (Jas 5:13-15).

Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They sometimes appear to be called “evangelists” in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as “presbyters” or “elders.” In fact, the English term “priest” is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6).

Although the terms “bishop,” “priest,” and “deacon” were somewhat fluid in the apostolic age, by the beginning of the second century they had achieved the fixed form in which they are used today to designate the three offices whose functions are clearly distinct in the New Testament.

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[R_C]

About the succession of the Apostles and in the Church

Church Father Ignatius of Antioch, disciple of John the Evangelist, wrote in AD 110:

Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ …]

Take care, therefore, to be confirmed in the decrees of the Lord and of the apostles, in order that in everything you do, you may prosper in body and in soul, in faith and in love, in Son and in Father and in Spirit, in beginning and in end, together with your most reverend bishop; and with that fittingly woven spiritual crown, the presbytery; and with the deacons, men of God. Be subject to the bishop and to one another as Jesus Christ was subject to the Father, and the apostles were subject to Christ and to the Father; so that there may be unity in both body and spirit …]

Indeed, when you submit to the bishop as you would to Jesus Christ, it is clear to me that you are living not in the manner of men but as Jesus Christ, who died for us, that through faith in his death you might escape dying. It is necessary, therefore—and such is your practice that you do nothing without the bishop, and that you be subject also to the presbytery, as to the apostles of Jesus Christ our hope, in whom we shall be found, if we live in him. It is necessary also that the deacons, the dispensers of the mysteries [sacraments] of Jesus Christ, be in every way pleasing to all men. For they are not the deacons of food and drink, but servants of the Church of God. …]

In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a church. …] In other words, anyone who acts without the bishop and the presbytery and the deacons does not have a clear conscience.

Church Father Clement of Alexandria writes in AD 208:

Even here in the Church the gradations of bishops, presbyters, and deacons happen to be imitations, in my opinion, of the angelic glory and of that arrangement which, the scriptures say, awaits those who have followed in the footsteps of the apostles and who have lived in complete righteousness according to the gospel.

About the Church, Irenaeus, also a disciple of John the Evangelist, writes in AD 189:

It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world.

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition. …]

it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?

*t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth.

The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere"*

Church Father Augustine of Hippo wrote:

[T]
here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. …] The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house.

 

[R_C]

Simply put, salvation comes through the gospel of Jesus Christ. One does not need any ties with the Catholic Church in order to obtain salvation.

About salvation without the Church

Church Father Ignatius of Antioch writes in 110 AD:

"Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism , he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine , he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons.

Church Father Irenaeus writes in 189 AD:

In the Church God has placed apostles, prophets, teachers, and every other working of the Spirit, of whom none of those are sharers who do not conform to the Church, but who defraud themselves of life by an evil mind and even worse way of acting. Where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace.

[The spiritual man] shall also judge those who give rise to schisms, who are destitute of the love of God, and who look to their own special advantage rather than to the unity of the Church; and who for trifling reasons, or any kind of reason which occurs to them, cut in pieces and divide the great and glorious body of Christ, and so far as in them lies, destroy it …] For they can bring about no ‘reformation’ of enough importance to compensate for the evil arising from their schism. . . . True knowledge is that which consists in the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place.

Church Father Origen wrote in AD 250:

If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved.

Church Father Cyprian of Carthage wrote in AD 250:

Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. …] He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother.

Let them not think that the way of life or salvation exists for them, if they have refused to obey the bishops and priests, since the Lord says in the book of Deuteronomy: ‘And any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest or judge, whoever he may be in those days, that man shall die’. …] now the proud and insolent are killed with the sword of the Spirit, when they are cast out from the Church. For they cannot live outside, since there is only one house of God, and there can be no salvation for anyone except in the Church.

When we say, ‘Do you believe in eternal life and the remission of sins through the holy Church?’ we mean that remission of sins is not granted except in the Church.

Church Father Lactantius wrote in AD 307:

It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. . . . Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church.

Church Father Jerome, translator of the Sacred Scripture in Latin, from which all current Bibles derive, wrote in AD 386:

Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation.

 

[Zackeera]

About salvation without the Church

Church Father Lactantius wrote in AD 307:

It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. . . . Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church.

Those are the words of mere man and don’t carry any weight with me. On the other hand, what God has given us through His Word is a message of life and hope through His Son Jesus Christ:

In John 5:24 Jesus said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

“Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:38, 39

“But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,” Acts 3:18,19

Do you believe those words? I do! And having been convicted of my sin by the Holy Spirit, I believe with all my heart that Jesus died in my place and that He will one day take me home to be with Him forever. I am now a child of God and a member of His church, the Bride of Christ.