Outside the Church there is no salvation

[Matariel]

This thread is one of the most confusing I have ever been involved in. Some put more importance on fancy words and certain legal discussions than actually wanting to know how people can be saved. Again, it is so simple if we follow the Word of God in all things… Some, have provided different views from past people and popes, but have not gotten into the meat of the Word.

What a confusing post… we’re discussing God’s (and therefore the Church’s, which is the universal Sacrament of salvation) mode of salvation. “Different views from past people and Popes” clarified the how’s, why’s, and other specifics of salvation which weren’t explicitly available in the Sacred Scriptures. The Church clarified its position everytime a heresy arose (like Pelagianism or Calvinism) which confused or distorted the Church’s (and the Bible’s) original teaching on salvation.

 

[Matariel]

I believe, but I don’t believe what the Catholic Church teaches and never will. Does that statement send me to hell? I was a Catholic for 37 years and happy to be out of that churchy system.

I’ve found that the overwhelming majority of people who have left the Church are generally ignorant of the Church’s teaching and beliefs. But the truth is, Christ only established “one Faith, one Baptism”, not many Protestant faiths. That one Faith, historically speaking, is the Faith of the 2,000-year-old Catholic Church, whose Faith comes directly from Christ and his chosen Twelve. The Catholic Church is the universal Sacrament of Salvation, and the graces and truths present in the various Protestant sects and divisions are ultimately derived from the fullness of the holy Catholic Church’s apostolic Faith, doctrine, and Scriptures.

 

[davidv]

This thread is one of the most confusing I have ever been involved in. Some put more importance on fancy words and certain legal discussions than actually wanting to know how people can be saved. Again, it is so simple if we follow the Word of God in all things… Some, have provided different views from past people and popes, but have not gotten into the meat of the Word.

Peace, Golfjack

This thread is direct evidence that it (what “it” is), is not as simple as you would assert it to be. If it were that simple we would all draw the exact same conclusions and be in complete agreement, as we might be in agreeing that 1+1=2.

Without the Church one may not find the true Word.

 

[golfjack]

As far as this discussion goes, I think one can break it down to a definition of one word, which is Church, which has been a debate between Evangelcals and Catholic’s for centuries.

The number one reason I left the Catholic Church is I wanted to know how to avoid hell when I died. Therefore, God led me to a Church that was Bible-based, and Spirit-filled.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Matariel]

As far as this discussion goes, I think one can break it down to a definition of one word, which is Church, which has been a debate between Evangelcals and Catholic’s for centuries.

There was only disagreement from Protestants 1,500 years after the Catholic Church was founded. Before then, everyone agreed what the Church was. The early Protestants invented a new vision of what the word “church” meant in order to justify leaving the one Catholic Church of God.

The number one reason I left the Catholic Church is I wanted to know how to avoid hell when I died.

That’s funny; that’s why I joined it and left the chaos of Protestantism behind.

Therefore, God led me to a church that was Bible-based, and Spirit-filled.

How do you know “God” did it? Usually Protestants just join a group they feel conforms to their own beliefs-- which is not a good way to arrive at Truth, IMHO. I think there is a Bible passage about that having to do with “itching ears” wanting to hear their own version of things, and not God’s.

 

[PJM]

This is the beauty of truth. A false doctrine that contains “some” elements of truth will ALWAYS fail to full satisfy and leave us restless. Even a whole cloth truth imperfectly worn will ALWAYS fail to satisfy (e.g. poorly catechized or lapsed Catholics). That THIRST and restlessness stirs the spirit to bring one to the truth.

God has a hugely vested interest in all His creatures and a lot of grace invested. We can be confident that anyone who thirsts and wants to be satisfied WILL be delivered to The Truth eventually. The Law is the handmaid to Grace. The Law brings us to Christ through our common imperfections - we trip and fall and get tired of it and want to get out of that misery. Thus guilt is heaven’s hound and the person not in grace or a person not at their full potential will ache for it all the more. Sin whithers us and brings us to our knees - a perfect remedy to the prime vice of pride - begging God for mercy. That is what brings us to the truth - humility. What does NOT bring us to God is a false complacany that one’s sins are covered over no matter what we do since God could never send anyone to hell. But this is an intoxicating elixir of a scrupulous man who sought to dull the aches of the heart and to quite the tell tale murmurs of guilt and pain.

Thus the best practical medicine to get those who are alienated from the true faith back into full grace and healing is to try to appeal to reason before they suffer the whithering effects of sin or get too complacent in a false faith. But this is very labor intensive and does nor produce much yield for the effort. The deceived mind too quickly overcomes the heart’s calling. It is God’s hound from heaven, that is guilt, who will find those who want to be found when they get so far off the path and suffer the whithering effects of sin that they become open to The Full Truth and the restorative grace of God.

At this point in history there are many many souls at risk. Under the hood Protestantism leads to Rationalism, Transcendentalism, and therefore towards pantheism, atheism, nihilism. Protestantism has stratified itself like a small intestine feeding a large intestine from top to bottom beginning with Anglican Catholics, High Anglicans, Low Anglicans to Presbyterians and down to Baptist and Evangelicals and the me-and-my-bible believers etc. Reason and any remaining elements of Catholics teachings are being stripped away as one falls downward into the belly of the beast. The natural human gravity is to degrade to the next adjacent level down in succession (down worry - I won’t carry the analogy all the way down to its logical digestive conclusion which we call “atheism” but might smell like something else). So VERY few humans comfortable at level seek to climb up toward the higher teachings to escape to Catholicism (outside the reach of the claws of of the creature). Most will slide progressively down under the gravity of sin toward atheism and despair.

So it is very inefficient to try to coax a few here and there into the Catholic Church. What we really need is a radical universal change. For that we need God’s supernatural help to slay this beast once and for all. I expect something is in the near works…

In the mean time all we Catholics can do is pray, practice our faith and set good examples and try to convince those who trust and respect us…

James

**Promise not to tell anyone but as a HS Senior some forty-six years ago I took a Christophers Course in Efective Public Speaking." What I remember about it is their Motto: “It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.” Both profound and beautiful.

Your diagram of non-Catholic and fallen away catholics seems to have a rather large “VOID” in it. People like Billy Graham, Dr. Dobson and so many others, who are intelligent, educated and informed, and very active in not only their own Faith Practice, but influencing thousands of others to a higher calling, and a higher standard of belief. They not only “put their money where their mouth is” but also their very lifes evolve around serving God, one assumes in a manner consistant with their level of understanding.

Is their understanding complete? Heck no! Is ours? **

Love and prayers Brother James

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;5358186:

OK, do you understand what John is saying? It’s not good news for those who left!

Yeah, it goes back to the first post.
If you don’t remain, its because you don’t know. John

John is not saying that those who left will be OK, he is warning others of their fate. Just because you pretend that dumping or murdering 7 of your wives is OK and give some kind of lame excuse it is not going to work. You may be able to fool others or establish plausible deniablity of culpability, but it is not going to fool God. I’m sure Lucifer and his angels gave all kinds of excuses, but their excuses didn’t work.

 

[PJM]

PJM “…our truth is THE TRUTH!” Compared to what? Your thinking it is so?

"John 21: 25 “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” Yes, of course. Yet another support of my contention.

“I hope I’m not putting words in your mouth; but you seem to be leaning to a position that “The Truth” cannot be had, cannot be proven, and indeed might be some sort of Hoax?”~PJM

Thanks for your concern, but you cannot put words in my mouth, only misinterpret them or understand them. We are not proceeding from the same premises, so the likeyhood is that, either not being clear on–or dismissing my premises, you misunderstand. Remember, I am quite clear on the Catholic positions stated on here having for so long being a zealous proselytizer for the faith. It seems that the situation is not mutual in terms of you understanding mine. If memory serves you have no truck with my standpoint, nor wish to.

“Hoax” with an “H?” As in “Theo-tricks?” Though it’s been said “If you want to make God laugh–make plans” I don’t think that there is any other hoax that what we perpetrate on ourselves by means of a vast and encompassing ignorance. This ignorance, IMHO, is very often supported by unexamined pious faith.

This position seems to deny God His right and his Will of informing with the TRUTH, whomever He so chooses. What may not be possible for humainty on our own is certainly not impossible for God.

One of our differing premises, PJM, is that you maintain an anthropomorphic interpretation of God. You appear, to me, to consider the relationship of God to Creation similarly to a model rail roader and his train set. I remember my religion class with Fr. Brainard, where he just looked at us incredulously and said “You actually believe that God is up there tossing out little flowers of sainthood you might be lucky to catch! NO!! You have to work!” (Loved that man!) I’m just saying that most religionists tend to plow in the wrong field. Reading much on here this in my opinion is clearly so. God, to put it symbolically, is at right angles to, yet inclusive of, most of the considerations on here. Maybe “considerations” is the wrong word, as it means “with the stars.” Such “thinking” as is on here for the most parts seems to be rather earth-bound. (Yes, I know I used lower case “e”) As for what’s possible for Man vs. God, isn’t that a truism?

***We have no cause for any level of equality with God. None, zip, zero.

However there is a commonality of desire and purpose.

God wishes that we be “saved” as do we.

---

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Donald45]

…Did King Henry VIII know? At some point he might have known, but would he have left if he knew?..

This may fail to distinguish between personal awareness and psychological certainty. One may indeed possess a personal awareness (“knowledge”) that the Catholic Church is the true faith. However, at the same time, he may lack the psychological certainly (the internal conviction) that this is so in fact.

An analogous situation would be the difference between logical “proof” and psychological “proof” in apologetics. This is why the apologist can present an air-tight logical case for a particular point of Christian truth, and his opponent may nevertheless remain psychologically unconvinced.

Likewise with the scenario under discussion. One may personally “know” (be objectively aware) that Catholicism is true, and yet remain (through his own fault, perhaps) psychologically uncertain (subjectively unconvinced).

In other words, he willfully refuses to take what he knows to heart. Faith, after all, is an act of the will.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[CentralFLJames]

As far as this discussion goes, I think one can break it down to a definition of one word, which is Church, which has been a debate between Evangelcals and Catholic’s for centuries.

The number one reason I left the Catholic Church is I wanted to know how to avoid hell when I died. Therefore, God led me to a Church that was Bible-based, and Spirit-filled.

     Peace,    Golfjack

Well Christ did not found His Church on the bible - he found it on the Rock of Peter. THAT Church 400 years later assembled the bible cannon and incorporated it into its liturgy and has been teaching it for 2000 years. Why would you go to a new church founded on some one who got a mail order divinity degree or attended some dubious divinity college with NO linkage to anyone who ever knew an apostle when you had a guarantee of salvation in the Catholic Church already (assuming you conformed to its teachings)?

Even if one does not perfect themselves fully on earth through the Catholic Church - if you at least escape mortal sin at death you are guaranteed salvation even if you might have to spend some time in purgatory to complete the sanctification process. Why go to a church that has NO apostolic authority to forgive sins or administer the sacraments? You could read your bible at home and at the Catholic Church. Why go to a bunch of strangers to read your bible with them when your family would be more than happy to read it with you as well as teach you what the apostles handed down to us? Did you avail yourself of all the many Catholic Church internal programs like adult catechism, bible and church history study, go to the many missions (CHIRP, , Alpha, CaFE, Disciples in Mission, RENEW etc.)?

It sounds to me like you went out looking for social and fellowship programs and things that would make you “feel good” over what you need spiritually without first checking with your own Catholic parish. This is common - that people mistake an emotional-sensual experience (e.g. “feeling”) with a spiritual experience and imagine if they are not in a constant “euphoria” then they are not in good spiritual standing. This is just misunderstanding. The two are not really always linked. Protestant preachers often know that is the true motive of those seeking their church and so they are trained as motivational speakers above all else. But the feel-good therapy only lasts a short time and is impossible to sustain and will always disappoint us in the long run.

Something else to consider - If Protestants have it right that we are all living in a condition of total depravity and are so corrupt that we can do nothing at all good then have your preacher please explain why the reformers, as totally depraved and as corrupt men could construct a new and perfect blue print for “reformation” to build the church new? Then contemplate how a totally depraved person could ever hope to be happy in any church until they are with Christ in heaven…

James

 

[Donald45]

Hi, James ~

Excellent post, a really fine evaluation. As a former Evangelical Protestant myself, your comments ring true indeed. Thanks.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[holy_moly]

I see where you are coming from concerning the second Vatican council and the first.

I do know the reason we are both called “Christians” is because of our mutual love for the Lord which is a very good and powerful thing. What if, then, it is possible for our Christian friends to get into heaven. In the same vein, what if the above teaching of Vatican I is true. There are many scriptures, however, which say if one does God’s will, will enter the kingdom of heaven, if one believes that Jesus is the Savior, will enter. “If one eats My Body and Blood will enter heaven”. (Notice I emphasize if one Eats My Body and Blood - Catholic church), I feel that as all these are true and if one does all of these things, they will enter the kingdom of heaven, period.

And since our separated/protestant brothers & sisters don’t believe in the real presence, now what?

 

[golfjack]

Wasn’t it Pope John Paul who said that one must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. I don’t remember him saying one must go through all the religious hoops to be saved.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[CentralFLJames]

Wasn’t it Pope John Paul who said that one must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. I don’t remember him saying one must go through all the religious hoops to be saved.

   Peace,    Golfjack

Yes GJ - Pope JPII said one must believe in Jesus to be saved. But as you know “believing in Jesus” means believing in everything He believed in and in ALL He taught. He made it clear that ‘those who reject those who He sends in His name (his apostles and their assigns) reject Him and He who Sent Him’. He also told us any who reject Him or those who give lip service and call him Lord Lord but do not do what He commands can not love Him and so can’t live in His house for eternity. It seems rather straightforward to me that if we don’t agree with the rules of the house that we can’t get free rent in exchange for false flattery or pretending to love somone we don’t love so much to actually obey. Hell is the place where the rules are different and one is free to do anything they want using their own personal powers - which unfortunately are nil.

James

 

[Matariel]

Wasn’t it Pope John Paul who said that one must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. I don’t remember him saying one must go through all the religious hoops to be saved.

“Religious hoops”? What’re you talking about? When you speak vaguely and insultingly it’s hard to p(name removed by moderator)oint exact areas of discussion. And also you haven’t answeredany of my previous posts.

 

[golfjack]

Religious hoops are what Catholics call the seven sacraments, being good exterrnally, and so forth.

James, I think your problem is that Jesus doesn’t believe what you do. It is up to you by using God’s Word that Jesus believed in things like praying a rosary.

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but I thought you guys believed in the truth of the Word. One more thing that bothers me is this belief that one has to be a Catholic to be saved. At least PJM has pretty much the answer.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Golfjack,

Maybe you have a point…

This thread is one of the most confusing I have ever been involved in. Some put more importance on fancy words and certain legal discussions than actually wanting to know how people can be saved. Again, it is so simple if we follow the Word of God in all things… Some, have provided different views from past people and popes, but have not gotten into the meat of the Word. Peace, Golfjack

From what I have gathered from your past posts, you are only accepting the Bible as the only source of authority. So, let’s see what we have:

1.) Christ is proclaimed by God the Father as His Son adn the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity is witnessed (Matt 3:13-17)

2.) Christ performs numerous miracles and proclaims that He is the Messiah, the Son of God, and we are to believe in him (John 10:30)

3.) Jesus selects 12 Apostles and from this group, God the Father reveals to Peter that Jesus is the Son of God and Peter is then identified by Jesus as the foundation of the Chruch Christ will found AND THE GATES OF HELL WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT (Matt 16:18)

4.) Christ proclaims that we must eat His Flesh (John 6:53) or else we have no life in us and brings about this miracle at the Last Supper (Matt 26:26)

5.) Jesus announces He will rise from the dead and does so and gives a message to tell the Disciples and Peter that He has risen (Mark 16:7)

6.) Jesus appears to the Apostles who are hiding in a locked room and gives them the authority to lose or bind men to their sins (John 20:22)

7.) After Jesus goes up to Heaven the Holy Spirit descends on the assembeled members and the Power of God is made evident to all of Jerusalem (Acts 2:4)

This is considered the birth of the Catholic Church. No other group can claim Christ as their Founder, no other organization can claim the Gift of the Holy Spirit so that error is not taught

Now, what’s the basis for refusing to believe what the Catholic Chruch teaches?

God bless

 

[CentralFLJames]

Religious hoops are what Catholics call the seven sacraments, being good exterrnally, and so forth.

James, I think your problem is that Jesus doesn’t believe what you do. It is up to you by using God’s Word that Jesus believed in things like praying a rosary.

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but I thought you guys believed in the truth of the Word. One more thing that bothers me is this belief that one has to be a Catholic to be saved. At least PJM has pretty much the answer.

    Peace,   Golfjack

GJ I don’t believe you were an active Catholic for 36 years. You have that tell-tale “edge” of a person who is a dyed in the wool cradle-Protestant: 1) unsymmetrical contempt for the sacraments (except the protestant ones of baptism and marriage) 2) anti-clericalism and 3) bible-only naivety that substitutes personal interpretation for reason. Who “got to you” and how did you manage to become so hard-over against your original teachings so suddenly? If you were really a Catholic you would identify with us more than “you guys” and would also know that the Catholic Church is the most holistically scripturally-integrative Church on the planet. The Catechism has hundreds of footnotes referencing scripture. There is no comparable holistic scripture teaching anywhere on the planet. No other Church on the planet reads and teaches the entire bible through regular Sunday liturgy reading every 3 years (show up for 3 years and one is taught the entire bible). No one Church on the planet has an extended bible liturgy that recites not only the scripture but also the writings of the Early Church Fathers and the Saints in 7 times daily in personal readings through the Liturgy of the Hours. Did you even know about The Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours. There is no church on the planet that comes even close to Catholic scholarship and worship through the Divine Word. Protestants are not in the same league of devotion to The Divine Word. Who are you kidding?

And if you knew one single thing about the Catholic Rosary prayers you would know that it is the lay man’s emulation of praying the 150 psalms - they could not read like the monks could so they learned the 15 mysteries of the gospel and recited the 15 decades (full rosary) 10 times instead of reciting the 150 psalms (there were also few bibles available outside of the Church). Every rosary prayer is right out of scripture - The Lord’s Prayer and Hail Mary are literal scripture. 13 of the 15 Rosary mysteries likewise are right out of scripture and the other 2 are by tradition and latter revelation:

Joyful Mysteries
The Annunciation. Fruit of the Mystery: Humility
The Visitation. Fruit of the Mystery: Love of Neighbor
The Nativity. Fruit of the Mystery: Poverty (poor in spirit), Detachment from the things of the world, Contempt of Riches, Love of the Poor
The Presentation of Jesus at the Temple. Fruit of the Mystery: Purity
The Finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple. Fruit of the Mystery: True Wisdom and True Conversion.

Sorrowful Mysteries
The Agony in the Garden. Fruit of the Mystery: Sorrow for Sin, Uniformity with the will of God
The Scourging at the Pillar. Fruit of the Mystery: Mortification
The Crowning with Thorns. Fruit of the Mystery: Contempt of the world
The Carrying of the Cross. Fruit of the Mystery: Patience
The Crucifixion. Fruit of the Mystery: Salvation

Glorious Mysteries
The Resurrection. Fruit of the Mystery: Faith
The Ascension. Fruit of the Mystery: Hope and desire for ascension to Heaven
The Descent of the Holy Spirit. Fruit of the Mystery: Holy Wisdom to know the truth and share with everyone
The Assumption of Mary. Fruit of the Mystery: Grace of a Happy Death and True Devotion towards Mary
The Coronation of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Fruit of the Mystery: Perseverance and Crown of Glory

Luminous Mysteries
The Baptism of Jesus in the Jordan. Fruit of the Mystery: Openness to the Holy Spirit-the Healer.
The Wedding at Cana. Fruit of the Mystery: To Jesus through Mary. The understanding of the ability to manifest-through faith.
Jesus’ Proclamation of the Kingdom of God. Fruit of the Mystery: Trust in God
The Transfiguration. Fruit of the Mystery: Desire for Holiness
The Institution of the Eucharist. Fruit of the Mystery: Adoration

If you were ever really a Catholic, which I doubt, you were not at all well catechised and were not practising.

Sorry - you don’t know one wit about Catholicism nor understand what you are talking about. So how can you hope to be able to interpret scripture?

James

 

[Matariel]

Religious hoops are what Catholics call the seven sacraments, being good exterrnally, and so forth.

Sacraments were of divine institution, they’re not “religious hoops” and it’s wrong to trivialise them. As for good works, St. James says, like we do, that “faith without works is dead”.

James, I think your problem is that Jesus doesn’t believe what you do. It is up to you by using God’s Word that Jesus believed in things like praying a rosary.

The rosary didn’t exist until much later. It’s a devotional practice, not a doctrine, I fail to see what this has to do with our discussion.

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but I thought you guys believed in the truth of the Word.

The Bible you have was compiled, codified, and canonised by the Catholic Church (in the Synod of Carthage, Council of Rome, and and finally in the Council of Trent). The doctrine of the Trinity which you belief (I assume) was affirmed in the Catholic Church’s Council of Nicea. I could go on, but you get the point.

One more thing that bothers me is this belief that one has to be a Catholic to be saved.

The Catholic Church is God’s Church on Earth, but people who are in ignorance outside of the visible structure of the Catholic Church are only held accountable for what they know. It is possible for people to be saved outside of the visible Catholic Church, but only through the graces and truths which come from the Catholic Church. In this sense, only Catholics can be saved.

 

[golfjack]

Here is some of my take on the Church: Christ is the Head, the Church His Body. Christ is the head of the body, the chu8rch ( Col. 1:18). Nobody can have more than one head; therefore it is wrong for any man, other than the Lord Jesus Christ, to claim to be the head of the church on earth or in heaven. His body has many members, and they asre all equal in His sight. His church is one body with only one head, Christ, who has all authority over each member of His body ( 1 Cor. 12:12-26).
Peace, Golfjack