Outside the Church there is no salvation

[Michael_Francis]

***Let’s get off the personal analysis and back and forth and focus on the topic under discussion.

Departure from topic will get a thread closed.
Sincerely,***

 

[laurenharper]

If I was at all rude to you, then your reply to me was 10-fold that. With that said, I will follow Jesus’ example and remain silent, allowing your posting to speak for itself to anyone else reading.

 

[Church_Militant]

Maybe it helps if we look at specifically what the Church teaches about this topic from the Catechism.

**Who belongs to the Catholic Church? **
836

Now, perhaps we can return to this topic and understand what the Church is teaching here,

I find some passages instructive and I hope they are helpful to others as well.

All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God.

I understand that to mean that we all are called to unity. A unity that seems to prove more elusive as time goes on.

. . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful,

This is directed at us Catholics obviously.

others who believe in Christ,

Here are the n-Cs…

and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

This is restating the mission of all of us to go into all the world and make disciples.

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

and

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
** “Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

(Cont’d)

 

[jean8]

Even if you were right, and the Gates of Hell prevailed over Christ’s Church almost as soon as it began, Our Lord commanded us to obey the “Pharisees”, and “do everything they tell you.” (Matt. 23) So you’re out of luck either way.

Acts 11:26 reads “So for a whole year Barnabus and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.”
The word 'Catholic ’ doesn’t appear in the N.T.
catholic means universial.

God bless,
jean

PS. Eph 2:19-20
“Consequently you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20. built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by His Spirit.”

 

[jean8]

Maybe it helps if we look at specifically what the Church teaches about this topic from the Catechism. and Now, perhaps we can return to this topic and understand what the Church is teaching here,

I find some passages instructive and I hope they are helpful to others as well. I understand that to mean that we all are called to unity. A unity that seems to prove more elusive as time goes on.This is directed at us Catholics obviously.

Here are the n-Cs…
This is restating the mission of all of us to go into all the world and make disciples.
(Cont’d)

Christian Catechisims are great teaching tools to have as long as the teachings are taken from the bible,

God bless,
jean

 

[Church_Militant]

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.

Here we are talking about (and to) Catholics. These are the very basic essentials of what being a member of the Catholic Church entails. I have no problem with that.

Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

There it is my friends, the Catholic Church does indeed teach that we can lose our salvation, which I have no problem with because I have found that in the New Testament as well as the writings of the early church fathers.

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323

Okay…this is directed to both Catholics and n-Cs as well and it is something that John Paul the Great went to some pains to try to explain in several encyclicals. It is dealt with in Ecclesia de Eucharistia and RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH just to name a couple. The facts is that we are Catholics and you other folks are not. There are differences and with very good reason. The Sacraments are a big part of that, but I think they key stumbling block is Sola Scriptura because it’s the foundational error that virtually every other n-C doctrinal error is built upon. Since my re-conversion to the Catholic faith about 9 years ago, I have been asking for scriptural citations that specifically teach Sola Scriptura, (and even reading n-C/a-C yeachings on it) and have yet to see it. IMO, it’s simply not there in the Bible, but let’s leave that for another thread. (I think there a coupe on that topic right now and I look in on them)

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

I know of few, either Catholic or n-C who would will argue this point that everyone in the world is called to Christ.
(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

Christian Catechisims are great teaching tools to have as long as the teachings are taken from the bible,

God bless,
jean

Show me where any of that cannot be supported from the New Testament Jean.

I suggest that you follow the link and look carefully at the footnotes for that section.

 

[Church_Militant]

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door.

This points up the fact that Our Lord founded a Church and not a collection of books. What does St. Paul tell St. Timothy? (1st Timothy 3) 15] if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

So then the Catholic Church teaches what the New Testament does and as the CCC says bases its remarks on both the New Testament and the Traditional writings that we have from the early church itself. For instance…let’s look briefly at what St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was a close friend & disciple of St. John the Evangelist, as well as bishop of that church and ultimately a martyr thrown to wild animals for his faith wrote about what members of the church believed in his day.

CHAP. VII.–LET US STAND ALOOF FROM SUCH HERETICS.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,(7) because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death(11) in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect,(13) that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of(15) them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion[of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved.(16) But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

N-Cs believe the same thing essentially because they will readily tell you that if you hear their witness and reject it that you put your soul in jeopardy.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

This harks back to the old question of “What about the guy out in the remote part of the world and he and his tribe never hear the Gospel?” It’s not his fault, and so the church teaches that they may achieve salvation. This in no way relieves us of our commission in Matthew 28:19 & 20.

 

[tqualey]

Michael,

I have really enjoyed reading your posts. This has been a genuine blessing to me.

This points up the fact that Our Lord founded a Church and not a collection of books. What does St. Paul tell St. Timothy? (1st Timothy 3) 15] if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

So then the Catholic Church teaches what the New Testament does and as the CCC says bases its remarks on both the New Testament and the Traditional writings that we have from the early church itself. For instance…let’s look briefly at what St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was a close friend & disciple of St. John the Evangelist, as well as bishop of that church and ultimately a martyr thrown to wild animals for his faith wrote about what members of the church believed in his day.N-Cs believe the same thing essentially because they will readily tell you that if you hear their witness and reject it that you put your soul in jeopardy. :shrug:This harks back to the old question of “What about the guy out in the remote part of the world and he and his tribe never hear the Gospel?” It’s not his fault, and so the church teaches that they may achieve salvation. This in no way relieves us of our commission in Matthew 28:19 & 20.

God bless

 

[laurenharper]

The above quotes from the Catechism were very helpful. I’d like to add a section, though, that I haven’t seen quoted from so far: (I took the liberty to bold the sections that struck me most, and the red type is, of course, my own inserted thoughts)

Section 817:

In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and **large communities **became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body -here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:
[inserted here there is a nice quote by St. Origen that I will not take up the space to type]

I think it is clear that the Protestant Community is what the passage is refering to by “large communities seperated…”

Section 818:

“However, one **cannot charge with the sin of the separation **those who at present are **born into these communities **[that result from such seperation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with repect and affection as brothers…All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

A very charitable section. Of course, one retort may be that “well, so you’re Christians technically, but you’re probably still not in good shape salvation-wise”

Section 819: (*I particularly like this section)

“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, along with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Crist has entrusted the Catholic Church. All these blessings come rom Christ and lead to Him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

Wow. Christ uses Protestant Churches as MEANS of salvation. But, I am not out to defend Protestantism, only to find truth. It seems to me that this section is saying that the power of salvation always comes from the Catholic Church, but extends through the Protestant Churches as well. And, naturally, being unified with the Catholic Church is a call to all Christians.

It seems fair to me to say that Protestantism isn’t the normative means of salvation, and we all know that salvation isn’t guaranteed to either Catholics or non-Catholics: we must all work out our salvation with fear and trembling (sorry no biblical reference)! I do, however, think it is unfair, and quite opposite of Catholic charity, to try and tell someone what the likelyhood of Christ’s decision to save is. More than one Catholic priest has told me that the Church NEVER states who is in Hell. It seems, then, only reasonable that they also wouldn’t try and guess “how close” someone came. Any thoughts on this?

 

[laurenharper]

books.google.com/books?id=7zao8kBL7CYC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=scott+hahn+no+salvation+outside+the+church&source=bl&ots=lX1ZWYBKaF&sig=X-Pbzliy3PceNPQcUA5hS173Vt4&hl=en&ei=X2NSSt6SJYOuNsCg9b8B&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

Sorry for such a long link. I found an amazing passage by Scott Hahn on our topic in a book that he assisted editing titled “Catholic for a Reason.” The section I am refering to is on page 11, section 4, and I’m hoping that the link will take you straight to it. It wouldn’t allow me to copy/paste the quote. Does anyone disagree with his take on salvation and the church?

 

[GodIsGracious]

books.google.com/books?id=7zao8kBL7CYC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=scott+hahn+no+salvation+outside+the+church&source=bl&ots=lX1ZWYBKaF&sig=X-Pbzliy3PceNPQcUA5hS173Vt4&hl=en&ei=X2NSSt6SJYOuNsCg9b8B&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

Sorry for such a long link. I found an amazing passage by Scott Hahn on our topic in a book that he assisted editing titled “Catholic for a Reason.” The section I am refering to is on page 11, section 4, and I’m hoping that the link will take you straight to it. It wouldn’t allow me to copy/paste the quote. Does anyone disagree with his take on salvation and the church?

One of the things that I noticed in his passage was that he used a capital C. Catholic, not catholic.

First. As a Catholic, I am taught that Catholic, with a capital C, it means people who are, specifically, Catholic. I wondered what catholic with a little c meant. I have recently asked (when I was in my adult confirmation class) two people - the class leader, who he and his wife used to be Anglican and converted to Catholicism and has a masters in theology. And another gentleman there who converted over from Protestantism and is also studying theology.

I asked about “catholic” with a little C. Because I had learned that even though catholic with a little c meant universal catholic, that what the REALLY meant were all the CATHOLIC Rites and churches UNDER the CATHOLIC church who were in communion with the Bisho of Rome. So in our creed when we say “holy catholic (little c) and apostolic church” that’s what we mean. That’s what I had learned, and that protestants, sorry to say, were not “covered” so to speak, under the catholic umbrella, not even with little c.

So this past May I was talkign to these two gentleman and I asked them, sincerely, honestly, and willing to accept that Protestants were under the catholic umbrella, with a little c. I was told, No. I asked why is it that Protestants keep bringing up that line. The plain and simple answer I received was, “They just interpret it differently that we do.”

That was, believe it or not, an answer I could accept. Especially considering that Protestants simply interpret the bible differently, and what they want, differently, than we do.

All of that being said, one of the things I noticed in that passage was that Hahn used a capital letter C for “Catholic.” He said, “…the Family of God, the Catholic Church.”

Now, the thing to do would be to ask Mr. Hahn himself what he meant. But to me, he meant Catholic, not “universal catholic (lower case C) as Protestants define catholic” to mean. So, from not having read the whole book but that mere section, and him being Catholic, I would read that as him meaning the Catholic church.

More in my next response…

 

[GodIsGracious]

(note: I had to shorten the response so I deleted some of your post, but I am addressing it all.)

[deletia]

Wow. Christ uses Protestant Churches as MEANS of salvation. But, I am not out to defend Protestantism, only to find truth. It seems to me that this section is saying that the power of salvation always comes from the Catholic Church, but extends through the Protestant Churches as well. And, naturally, being unified with the Catholic Church is a call to all Christians.

It seems fair to me to say that Protestantism isn’t the normative means of salvation, and we all know that salvation isn’t guaranteed to either Catholics or non-Catholics: we must all work out our salvation with fear and trembling (sorry no biblical reference)! I do, however, think it is unfair, and quite opposite of Catholic charity, to try and tell someone what the likelyhood of Christ’s decision to save is. More than one Catholic priest has told me that the Church NEVER states who is in Hell. It seems, then, only reasonable that they also wouldn’t try and guess “how close” someone came. Any thoughts on this?

Also, due to the fact that Protestants interpret “one holy, catholic and apostolic church” differently than a Catholic would, I can certainly see why a non-Catholic christian could, and possibly would read those passages from the CC that you pointed out, Lauren, as a justification to say, “SEE! Even your church says we are saved!” (Ok, simplified statement there, but I think you get my meaning.)

See, I don’t read that passage that way. If what you’re saying is true, that then tells me that there is no need to join the Catholic church and that she has no real reason to be here but yet some other “denomination” or “sect” of Christianity. I can see how some Protestants can and some do view it that way, but as a Catholic, those passages don’t mean the same thing. To me, the Catholic church is not simply a sect of Christianity but THE Church.

You said yourself that Christ uses it as a “means” of salvation. Sure. I personally believe that God uses anyone He wants to as a “means” of salvation. By the community of saints that Catholics are, that’s a “use” He has for us as a “means” of salvation. non-Catholic Christian denominations that baptise (which we believe to be a requirement for salvation) people serve this very purpose. At least a person is being baptised.

I consider that “means” to be, “Atleast they’re hearing the Gospel. Ok, now it’s time for them to convert to Catholicism.”

I don’t think anyone is saying that we don’t have commonality and some common ground. And as I have said earlier in not so many words, it is not without charity to inform someone of the dire consequences to a lack of conversion. Wouldn’t you want an intervention, or wouldn’t you want to do an intervention, if you felt that someone was going down the wrong path in life? (i.e. hanging out with the wrong crowd, drugs, alcohol, messing up in school…)

The thing about religion is it is … gentle. i.e. You can’t see one’s soul, but it’s there. You can’t see God, but He’s there. You can’t see what happens to someone when they die, but judgement takes place. So without these hardline sensory “proofs,” it’s easy to say, “I’m fine going down the path I’m on, thanks.” Because we don’t know. I think that if we had had the human sensory cues, cues we can perceive while alive with our senses, things might be easier. But we don’t have that. And so since it’s always, “Well, yeah, we’ll die some day.” We always think of “some day” as being some time in the future when we’re old and gray. But that “some day” could be right now, this instant. We never know when we’re going to die so there is a sense of urgency for one’s eternal soul.

Lauren, I just don’t agree that it’s “uncharitable” to tell people what the possible consequences are for someone’s lack of conversion. The charity comes in how the consequences are presented.

It seems to me that you’re trying to find a reason as to why there is no need to convert to Catholicism. Some Catholics may feel there is no need, that through “God’s mercy” anyone can be saved, and I don’t doubt that. But as a Catholic who does believe the Catholic church is Christ’s church, what I hear is people saying that they don’t really need to join Christ’s church because, meh… His dad will have mercy on me. And I just don’t agree with that.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Laurenharper,

This was a really great link … and, now I see what you meant by teh size of it… Thanks for sending this!

God bless

books.google.com/books?id=7zao8kBL7CYC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=scott+hahn+no+salvation+outside+the+church&source=bl&ots=lX1ZWYBKaF&sig=X-Pbzliy3PceNPQcUA5hS173Vt4&hl=en&ei=X2NSSt6SJYOuNsCg9b8B&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

Sorry for such a long link. I found an amazing passage by Scott Hahn on our topic in a book that he assisted editing titled “Catholic for a Reason.” The section I am refering to is on page 11, section 4, and I’m hoping that the link will take you straight to it. It wouldn’t allow me to copy/paste the quote. Does anyone disagree with his take on salvation and the church?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Section 817:

I think it is clear that the Protestant Community is what the passage is refering to by “large communities seperated…”

It is referring to the large community of schismatics (i.e. Orthodox) and those neo-Christian “ecclesial communities” coming out of the errors of their heretical founders (e.g. Huss, Luther, Calvin, et-al) and all down-stream subdivisions. The many anathemas issued at Trent only apply to Catholics like Luther and others who followed him OUT of the Catholic Church. These were a severe penalty of apostolic binding in sin by the formal denial of sacraments (e.g. sacrament of reconciliation) as a last hope that the whithering effects of sin would bring them to their knees to repent. These anathemas no longer are in effect for anyone not originally in the Catholic Church.

In that sense one particular way God “USED” the schisms and the heretics was to demonstrate through their error a means to define explicitly what is NOT Christian through the 120 or so new Trent anathemas condemning the core of the Protestant tenants (which is the practical aspect of anathemas since these defining words become NEW infallable dogmatic teachings).

So, in that sense God USED the errors of the Protestant Uprising to tell us that such things as preaching “symbolic presence” vice real-presence, or sola-fide, or sola-scriptura, or the denial of priesthood and sacraments etc. are all not-apostolic teachings and therefore are NOT permitted Christian beliefs. Other ways God uses separated Churches is to teach the Catholic Church humility and make us examine why so many became disaffected. Trent corrected quite a few abuses more expediently than it had been doing in the prior Lateran councils already in work before Luther’s uprising. God pushed the Church along to institute the changes that we knew we needed to make to correct some abuses that no one denied. Other ways that God USES these separated and schismatic Churches is to let some aspects of the ensuing secularity show through consequence of example how reason without the illumination of the full faith can not succeed in advancing humanity and also how heterodoxy causes a loss of unity and an increase in sin and advances anarchy and secular-humanism. I am certain that there are quite a few more positive and negative examples that can be learned here for the person inclined to study them. So just as God was able to use Baalam’s Donkey to teach Baalam an important lesson and how God was able to make a greater good come out of the sins of David in preserving the Davidic lineage to bring forth Messiah we can expect good things. We can be confident that God is giving a lot of grace here for more saints and better teachings to be forthcoming - even while we all suffer the consequences together. But suffering is essential for grace and good for annealing His saints - so God permits it.

Section 818:
A very charitable section. Of course, one retort may be that “well, so you’re Christians technically, but you’re probably still not in good shape salvation-wise”

Baptism is what binds individuals to Christ and His Church and to His Church’s authority. All baptized Protestants (by Trinitarian formula) are, knowing or not, related to the Catholic Church and are subject to her authority but also are entitled to benefit by certain of her channels of grace (our combined universal prayers and mass offerings/intentions given daily). But they remain “separated” and so can not normally participate without rare permission in all the more efficacious channels of grace (e.g. Sacraments of Penance, Eucharist and Last rites - though I personally know of a few cases). Divine Mercy is however always a possibility - especially when pleaded by Catholics through the solicitous and potent appeal and merits of The Church and Her saints: “I shall show Mercy on whom I shall show Mercy”.

This section is particularly relevant to those Protestants newly baptised and those who maintain their original baptismal grace by avoiding grave sins. But it is silent about the aspects of sanctification that are lost when grave post-baptismal sin is committed - in which case all grave sinners (Catholics or others) become alienated from God and no longer participate in saving grace nor can they merit any supernatural merit before God without once again regaining their original baptismal grace (by repentance and perfect contrition or through God’s Divine Mercy - none of which can be known for certain without divine revelation). This is the thorny area for Catholics I spoke of earlier – where one needs perfect contrition without sacramental confession.

Section 819: (*I particularly like this section)

It seems to me that this section is saying that the power of salvation always comes from the Catholic Church, but extends through the Protestant Churches as well. And, naturally, being unified with the Catholic Church is a call to all Christians.

There are subtleties here. The power does not flow through the Catholic Church then through the Protestants “ecclesial communities” (btw we don’t call these “churches” since they are not – there is only one Church in Catholic belief and teaching). Rather, what happens is the grace flows from the extension of the Incarnate Body of Christ (which is The Catholic Church) to individuals who are predisposed to receive grace in accordance to their interior dispositions. Thus the real relationship here is Church to individual - there is no soul or mystical aspect to a protestant ecclesial community like there is in the One Catholic Church. There is only One Body of Christ with many members - not a network of churches within churches.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

More than one Catholic priest has told me that the Church NEVER states who is in Hell. It seems, then, only reasonable that they also wouldn’t try and guess “how close” someone came. Any thoughts on this?

You have good information on Church practice of never judging individual souls. But pragmatically I doubt many think Judas or anyone from Sodom and Gomorrah “made it”. Not too many Catholics believe that hell is empty.

I have seen no one here judge any specific individual’s soul to be in hell and I don’t think any Catholic would knowingly do that.

But we can certainly frame categories of behaviors or groups of peoples who practice and promote evil and immoral conduct as being subject to condemnation unless they repent before death. That is judging categories of behaviors but not judging individual souls. This can be useful when analysizing strategies for countering demonic and spiritual attacks. We are The Church Militant after all and that is why we are here – to overcome evil and resist it and to ward it off with the spiritual tools we have and to be as effective as we can.

We can never know what happens in the private moments in and around death between God and a particular soul. In such moments St. Faustina tells us in a teaching that can be accepted as true if we so choose that Jesus calls each soul 3 times with progressively more merciful grace to give it the opportunity to repent. But He will not completely overcome the soul’s free choice with irresistible grace. The Divine Mercy chaplet is said to be extremely effective in these moments – and can pray this anytime before or after a person’s death since God is eternal and hears us in the “now” of eternity – which is timeless.

Yet by the same accounts we are lead to believe that some souls when encountering God’s overwhelming holiness are so hardened by the shame of sin they imagine God could not forgive them and hold their guilt as greater than God’s Mercy. Such souls simply can not shake off this prideful notion of self-judgment to permit themselves to plead for mercy over their own self-centered shame – self-idolatry. These who despair will “go to their own place” as Judas “seems” to have done and doubt God could ever forgive them. That’s the one unforgivable sin - despair – refusing to repent and dieing in the hardness in impenitence – usually a thing a person was doing all their lives – rejecting God.

So, unless God reveals more plainly we will never know for certain how many or how few. How many exactly is irrelevant as long as one strives to cooperate to be one of those saved – whatever the number is. But there are lots of stars in heaven and lots of grains of sand on the beach. How many is “many that go by the wide path to their destruction” and how “few” are the “few who enter by the narrow gate to salvation”? It is said that it is even improper to use a majority rule here (i.e. few being less than 50%) since the statement was made before Christ completed his resurrection and because Christ valued souls so greatly that one lost is one too “many”.

As for how close one came? These do have merit and make great testimony stories for the grave sinner repenting on their death beds at the 11th hour. We hear of thousands of these and it can be worthwhile. I know of a number of fallen away Catholics over the years who were openly living sinful lives yet when they were on their death beds in a coma or unconscious a Catholic priest administered Extreme Unction – last rites. How close is that? We assume such a one is saved – and if they were not Catholic they would not have had that sacrament that forgives one of all sins even if they are unconscious and unable to form contrition or verbally confess. Powerful stuff! How many Protestants know of such powerful sacraments and would willingly reject them?

Yet I know of one family who did not believe in baptism and refused to take my council for an emergency baptism that forgives all sin when their incapacitated daughter was in a comma and facing certain imminent death from a catastrophic automobile accident. She was a friend of a friend’s co-worker who was very upset over it and called me up. She told me that she was afraid for her soul since this person was known to be doing extreme porno movies and all kinds of illicit sex acts “for kicks”. So I knew she was very likely headed for hell unless we could get her baptized. Her parents as her guardians flat out refused out of pure doctrinal pigheadedness and believed that baptism was only “symbolic” and useless. They did not even care about their daughter who was long ago estranged. They were just at the hospital to sign papers to terminate life support. Against pleadings they would not extend the benefit of the doubt about baptism. How close? Close enough for me to go rush out and start saying the Divine Mercy chaplet for an hour and pray for her, a complete stranger to me, on her death bed. And stuff happened. She has a miraculous partial recovery and came out of her coma and in a few weeks got off life support. And while now a complete paraplegic I think God saved her and is giving her time to repent and do penance for a very sinful life and healing her of the suffering she had to grow up with such heartless parents. That is close.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

I do, however, think it is unfair, and quite opposite of Catholic charity, to try and tell someone what the likelihood of Christ’s decision to save is.

Firstly, salvation is the individual’s decision. Christ does not force anyone to be saved or to be damned. Christ wills to save all that The Father gives Him. That is an upper limit on the probability we can bank on 100%. No one is damned unless he wants to be and by his own choice and fault. Every damned soul will be made to admit “I am damned by my own fault” because mortal sin requires consent of the will – and that is free-choice by definition.

Secondly, what is unfair is for a knowledgeable Catholic to give any impression that suggests that one is granted permission to be excused from the obligation to be a formal member of the Catholic Church and to conform oneself to her teachings; teachings that are intended to give the soul his ultimate freedom and the greatest joy - eternity with God at the fullest potential of the finite human soul. To do so or to fail to warn when there is a clear opportunity is to participate in that soul’s sins if it falls due to this disordered attitude.

As well, we should take note that there is an unfairness in passiveness since it can occasion the loss of a soul’s full potential or exposes it to higher risks. One does not want to give false assurances that being in or out of the Catholic Church are equivalent alternatives with respect to one’s ability to work out their salvation with God. No, not so! Without needing to quantify it precisely, we can assume that there is most definitely a much higher qualitative risk of loss of salvation to remain outside The Church where one is without all 7 sacraments and the full teachings and the many spiritual and corporeal disciplines. Clearly logic alone tells us that God would not have given The Church the sacraments for a frivolous reason. Grace is precious stuff and there is an economy of Grace – grace for atonement and for divinizing. Note too that each participation in the sacrament is an encounter with Jesus either in persona Christi or in person (Eucharist)! Wow – there He is! Emanuel! God with us! What right minded Catholic would dare to council a person not to encounter Christ? If all really believed as they should – the church would be fully occupied 24/7 with a queue wrapped around the street corner.

Losing eternity is the largest loss one could ever suffer. There is no supernatural charity to be found in any system of thinking that permits a person to go on believing and living in a false sense of security. It would most grave to permit one to hold to a false complacency when there is grave spiritual danger – and there is at every moment. Every heart beat is an opportunity for Mercy and Repentance – as well as an opportunity to reject Mercy and the call for Repentance to encounter “The Day of The Lord” where one is suddenly taken “like a thief in the night”.

Style and incompetence are not sins unless practiced to perfection. Some say toe-may-toe some say toe-ma-toe and others just say “eat your vegetables and let’s get on with the program already”. Still others will want to force style to the exclusion to the warnings – go figure? The only real time a warning becomes uncharitable is if one uses the occasion to intimidate and bully a person to force compel a person to convert. It can be fine a line though and a matter of real vs perceived intention. “Was he shaking-up a person with rigorous reason or was she shaking-up a person psychologically just to be mean or to feel more righteous”? The alpha-dog wants to assume the worst motive and will self appoint themselves custos morum and bark either way just to gain the bone of self righteousness. It’s no wonder most people just shut up and mind their own business – no good deed ever goes unpunished they say.

But what we all really want deep down is to appeal to the Spirit of Truth in whatever way works and let one imagine it was all a sudden personal Epiphany.

But being silent on the matter at hand opens other less than optimum possibilities. There is also a possibility for reducing the spiritual growth of a person and not letting them be all God intended for them to be. So let me share a pearl or two on this new thought here.

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[from above]

The Catholic Church does not teach nor condemn a notion of a hierarchy of rewards in heaven. But scripture suggests each soul is rewarded personally according to his individual works. Of course beatitude with God would seem to be the highest reward common to all - but there is in fact legitimate inspiration in scripture as well as from some saintly insights that suggest the biblical notion of a range from “the least in heaven” and the “greatest in heaven”. Attainment of heaven is infinately bettter than not getting there. We need not worry much here except in assessing the cost of silence. This notion of range of rewards implies that while on earth basking in God’s grace one can increase and actually grow their spiritual capacity by exercising through charitable works of grace (usually implies suffering – ‘no pain no gain’). The nine choirs of angels is another strong suggestion of a spiritual hierarchy. So it is very plausible that the more once advances in spiritual growth on earth (our gestation period) then the greater the capacity of the soul to draw deeper into beatitude with God.

The reason I mention this at all is because my personal theory is that those Protestants that are able to be saved will not reach their full spiritual potential for lack of the Church’s full sacramental channels of graces that we Catholics have access to over all our lives. So I speculate that those gaining heaven without reaching their full potential will therefore lack greater spiritual capacity to draw as deep into beatitude as perhaps the higher saints and martyrs etc. attain to. If true then here is yet another reason to re-consider the necessity and the imperative to access ALL the sacraments of The Church to attain fully what God intends for each of us. More reason to be Catholic.

Eternity is a long time and the only thing we take with us at death is what sanctifying grace we have managed to enrichen our soul with and retain – that grace is our eternal life since grace is the stuff of divinity. So we want as much as we can gain while here on earth and to grow our souls by exercising them by doing God’s works of charity (and I include corrective warnings here as legitimate works ) and availing ourselves to all the channels of grace that are available to us. All Christians should be grace-junkies and be doing all we can to get more and grow so we will have more utility to God here on earth and also so we may gain a greater beatitude in heaven to share in the communion of saints.

Again - this latter thing is a personal opinion - but I am well-read and consider it an informed opinion that is well within the apostolic framework of teachings.

James

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

846 …they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
CCC

Why would someone “refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” if they know “that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ”?
Wouldn’t such person NOT know?
Unless they did not want salvation…

People act against knowledge, & the conscience that is their clue to its application, all the time . Human beings are not passionless Brains, like the beings so often seen in science fiction films: they are - we are - swayed by circumstances, emotion, appetite, reason, unreason, our characters, “personal equations”, actions, omissions, knowledge, absence of it - & not least, by our sins. So what ought to be very obvious, often isn’t: & not only in religion; but if in other things this can be so, then it usually can in religion as well. ​

 

[GodIsGracious]

All Christians should be grace-junkies and be doing all we can to get more and grow so we will have more utility to God here on earth and also so we may gain a greater beatitude in heaven to share in the communion of saints.

I must say that I am. (I need to go to confession soon too!)

Let me mention something that I think you may probably already understand.

I had an emotional plea with my boyfriend (he is Byzantine Catholic) one evening on the sanctifying grace of Reconciliation. Having been his girlfriend for the last 5 years I know a sin or two of his. When I came back to the church I confessed EVERYTHING and “cleaned up my act.” For me, I completely get and totally understand the sacrament of reconciliation. Not only that, it’s personally healing! I was crying and i asked him, “I don’t get it. I really don’t get it, (his name). How can you not want to take advantage of every single tool that the Catholic church places at your feet for grace and attainment of salvation?”

And he said, “I’m just being dumb right now I guess.”

And I got it. Because I was there too. I continue to pray for him to understand some things and his salvation as well. He’s got health issues and I already plan on “attacking” (said playfully) him should he find himself in the hospital with saying the Chaplet of Divine Mercy. Right now he’s got that picture of Jesus on his desk and is expressing an interest in the Rosary.

I firmly believe that to be a Catholic, to follow her teachings, and all of the sacraments is what helps to keep us on that very, what at times feelslike an extremely narrow, path. While I do believe that God does have infinite and perfect mercy and love, it is through the Catholic church, which is beloved son, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, gives us these tools and an easier access to a very narrow path.

You’re doing great, James!