Outside the Church there is no salvation

[jean8]

Thank you for your opinions - but what I have said is very mild (esp. compared to being more strong in my words in prior posting histories). And I must say I don’t agree with your opinion either.

As an Anglican, you should know very well that the Catholic Church has gone on record for 2,000 years preaching this same consistent message : Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS: Outside the Church there is no salvation). Your Anglican forefathers, before King Henry forced hijacked all Catholics to be in HIS new church, were all once Catholic who had real ordained apostolic Bishops and Priests. If you know the Anglican legacy and history then you must know your forefathers were all Catholic for over 1,000 years before the King “took the church”. All these rigorously believed and taught EENS too. If they were here today they would be passionately urging you to come into the Catholic Church - daily. The members of the ecclesia Anglicana branch of the Catholic Church, when it was Catholic, were more disciplined and focused than today’s generation of “patriotic-Anglicans”. They would know that a person who loves another person does not permit one to walk perilously close to the edge of the cliff to risk falling and perishing without giving them a warning. They would see that as irresponsible and know that it would put the guilt of loss on them for not speaking out at least a warning.

The very same sense of responsibility was present in the apostolic times. All apostles and disciples would warn you to your face if you were in danger of falling away. Frankly, I think you have a very anachronistic view of what the personalities of the apostles really were. Let me give you some insights:

*Galatians 1-9:
As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

2 Peter 2:12
But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

2 Peter 3:15-16
…our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.*

Philippians 3:2-4
Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; 3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, 4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh

Matthew 7:6
Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Rev 22:114-15
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside [ed: the Church] are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Mark 7:27
And He was saying to her, “Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”

Sorry, I just don’t see a lot of love-n-lollipops false Christian pandering about being complacent in a false faith in the above verses. There is a sense of urgeny to get right with God and enter into the apostolic Church and the original gospel.

This is strawman - I never said anything contrary to this. But let me correct you on what the Catholic Church really teaches. The Church teaches that those who are outside of the church through invincible ignorance who find themselves in post-baptismal mortal/grave sin may be forgiven if they form a PERFECT CONTRITION. But we also know that a perfect contrition is only formed when one is sorry for offending God out of love and without any regard to being fearful of His just punishments (hell). We also know that this is impossible for natural man to do on his own and it requires supernatural grace to attain to perfect contrition - where one must rather desire to die than offend God again and have real tears, spiritual pain and bitter sorrow over sinning against God. Few saints can attain this level of contrition. So to rely on this and to preach this as an alternative to sacramental confession is creating and abetting a false compassion that will likely lead many to hell. Further, if any Catholic is counseling a person that this perfect contrition is possible then they are also obligate to tell a person that they are obligated to become Catholic so that they may more easily gain forgivness through sacramental confession. That removes a barrier to the excuse of invincible ignorance (which one should rightfully also inform the person).

So why are you not Catholic when you should know better? Do you know the history of your Church?

James

james,
shame on you.
Your judging other christians. See Mt.7:1-5
God shows no favoritism. Jas. 2;1 Rom.2:11, Eph. 6:9

I was just researching the Gift of Tongues .Supernatural tongues go back as far as 1100B.C.
speaking-in-tongues.net if your interested.

Did you know this gift has been given to about 55 million people , Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Pentecostals and and many others. This gift is given to believers. So you see, there are many saved folks outside of the RCC.

Please read the acticle.

God bless,
jean

 

[CentralFLJames]

james,
shame on you.
Your judging other christians. See Mt.7:1-5
God shows no favoritism. Jas. 2;1 Rom.2:11, Eph. 6:9

I was just researching the Gift of Tongues .Supernatural tongues go back as far as 1100B.C.

Did you know this gift has been given to about 55 million people , Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Pentecostals and and many others. This gift is given to believers. So you see, there are many saved folks outside of the RCC.

You have me confused Jean. Are you cross-threading different discussions I have been in?

1. First of all I don’t see any specific judgement of anyone’s soul in this post and generally try hard to not judge another person’s soul - just admonish behaviors. I spoke to the historical record of the Anglican Church while referencing scripture verses that contradicted the generalized assertions I was responding too. But now that you bring it up - are you suggesting that Christians are exempt from being judged or corrected simply because they are “Christian”? If that is true then how does one “correct” a wayward Christian when they start preaching heresy or deviating from the truth as scripture admonishes us to?

Do men such as Jim Jones, David Korish and Jim Bakker get a kitchen pass to say anything they want and exempt themselves from “being judged” by pinning on a lapel pin that says: “Can’t criticize me - I’m Christian & saved”?

Jean, I love you sister, but I think you are falling victim to the neo-Christian message that says “I’m OK, you’re OK - let’s all just hold hands in what anyone wants to believe in and just Luv everyone and sing Kumbaya (and toast dogma on the campfire like burned marshmallows)” . Nope - that is not an apostolic Christianity. We are to show love and compassion in our dealings with one another but we are love bound to correct and teach because we are Christian. Again, what good is a pandering love if all it does is cause somone to relax their grip on the truth and smile as they slide down the slope into the pit? Opps… “sorry sis I messed up there”. Uh, huh.

Some scripture to consider:

*Romans 15:14 I myself am also persuaded about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish others.

1 Corinthians 4:14 I don’t write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.

Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, remembering that for a period of three years I didn’t cease to admonish everyone night and day with tears

1 Thessalonians 5:14 We exhort you, brothers, admonish the disorderly, encourage the fainthearted, support the weak, be patient toward all.

Mark 8:32 But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”

Luke 17:3 Be careful. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him.

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear

Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent

Leviticus 19:17 "'You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.*

That said here is a verse I and everyone need to keep in mind:

*Jude 1:9 But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, “May the Lord rebuke you!” *

1. Be careful about the gift of tongues Jean. There is a lot of emotionalism, sensationalism and hysteria associated with false discernment in this area. The Catholic church permits charismatic gatherings but monitors it for abuses - since there have been many. I have a very strong opinion in this area and think that I can speak with some authority on it since myself was given this gift at an early age in my life. But I have deliberately elected not to speak in tongues because I have serious misgivings. I prefer to rely on the Holy Spirit to spiritually speak in quiet inner moanings and groanings too sublime for us to comprehend. There are other OPs about this topic and I don’t want to go down a rabbit hole here. But again be careful what you read and hear on this. My own estimation is that 90% of these people who claim to speak in tongue are delusional. The Holy Spirit never aids and abets by giving a gift that would operate to divide unity and would never ratify false faiths. There is only one Holy Spirit and one faith and one truth. Anything that gives creedance to the plausibility of a universal “invisible church” is anti-Catholic and not the spirit of truth. I don’t want to sound mean here but the facts are that there has been not one single credible case of a single “Protestant” ever gaining heaven. In all of the pluralism of Protestantism we have not one single credible report of miracalous post-death events associated with any Protestant to suggest that they are saints in heaven - not one. Compare and contrast that fact with the thousands of cases of Catholic saints - even contemporary ones. One would think that in 500 years if Protestantism was legitimate that we would surely have at least one case of a Protestant saint to validate their beliefs. I don’t take the deafening silence in this area of consideration as evidence that no non-Catholics have made it to heaven but I do take it as God deliberately telling us that we are not to take our earthly inspiration from those subscribing to protestant faiths. What I will say with conviction is that there are in heaven only supernatural-converts and perfected Catholics in heaven since there is only one perfect truth.

Pax,
James

 

[GodIsGracious]

So question then. And I hope that this is still in line with this thread, especially regarding salvation.

I had done a Google search to look for the name of “Baphomet” I think it is, the satanic goat man image, and found a thread on some “Christian” forum that was title the 11 deadly sins of the Catholic church. (James, I’ll send you the link in PM as I do not want to give them unnecessary advertisement.)

Their second one was amusing to say the least. I actually just about really "LOL"ed it was so absurd. But I read a few posts and there is so much hate on that forum thread alone.

These are actually the types of people I think about when it comes to “possible” salvation outside of the Catholic church. These people may have even had a Trinitarian baptism and so it puts them in with us as Christian (but separated) brothers and sisters. However, the forum was such full of hatred and contempt, especially for the Catholic church. Infact, it was totally directed at the Catholic church. (There was also much ignorance exhibited.)

The idea of “invincible ignorance” could, probably, be applied to a child growing up in this environment. Through no fault of their own they’re taught this hatred and so for some people they never open their eyes to the Truth of the Catholic church and her teachings. Some do, sure, of course! But others don’t. And sometimes it bothers me to think that these people who perpetuate hate, whether directed at the Catholic Church (she is strong and protected by the Holy Spirit anyway) or at any other group of people, how is their hope for salvation? Christ commanded us to love one another and yet …

Anyway. My Google search led me to that forum and I thought about this thread and decided to post this question.

 

[CentralFLJames]

So question then. And I hope that this is still in line with this thread, especially regarding salvation.

I had done a Google search to look for the name of “Baphomet” I think it is, the satanic goat man image, and found a thread on some “Christian” forum that was title the 11 deadly sins of the Catholic church. (James, I’ll send you the link in PM as I do not want to give them unnecessary advertisement.)

Their second one was amusing to say the least. I actually just about really "LOL"ed it was so absurd. But I read a few posts and there is so much hate on that forum thread alone.

These are actually the types of people I think about when it comes to “possible” salvation outside of the Catholic church. These people may have even had a Trinitarian baptism and so it puts them in with us as Christian (but separated) brothers and sisters. However, the forum was such full of hatred and contempt, especially for the Catholic church. Infact, it was totally directed at the Catholic church. (There was also much ignorance exhibited.)

The idea of “invincible ignorance” could, probably, be applied to a child growing up in this environment. Through no fault of their own they’re taught this hatred and so for some people they never open their eyes to the Truth of the Catholic church and her teachings. Some do, sure, of course! But others don’t. And sometimes it bothers me to think that these people who perpetuate hate, whether directed at the Catholic Church (she is strong and protected by the Holy Spirit anyway) or at any other group of people, how is their hope for salvation? Christ commanded us to love one another and yet …

Anyway. My Google search led me to that forum and I thought about this thread and decided to post this question.

**Dear GiG - beware of that site! **

Landover Baptist is a fictitious church constructed on the web for one purpose - to lampoon all Christians and paint them as either extremist fundamentalist bigots or as Satanic Catholics.

I almost fell for it a year ago and went in head first guns-blazing and debated 3-4 different personas of what proved to be the same man playing multiple-sock puppet accounts. It is a FAKE virtual-church site and not a real physical church. The man running it is an atheist who knows a lot of theology (I think a fallen away Christian from a very academic background). If you subscribe there and post a single thing he will mock you and change your title to call you “papist dog” or “restricted pending judgement” or “unsaved scum” or “certified True Christian”. He will ban you if you don’t even use the KJV as the ONLY bible for “True Christians[sup]®[/sup]” (yes he copyrighted the name) - just to be funny and condescending.

It took me a few weeks to understand his game and I actually was able to draw him in on real personal and scholarly debate with real apologetics. Most don’t last that long but I think I got to him at an intellectual level and he felt a real challenge. I had him on the ropes and then he banned me for exposing his site as fraudulent. He has protected his site ownership using secret-private domain name registration since many fundamentalist have essentially put a bounty on him and are trying to shut him down in court.

More Info Here:
Wikipedia: Landover Baptist Church

Do not take the man serious - he is making an enterprise and profiting out of marketing hatred and contempt of all Christians. He does seem to be softening up in some of his posts (if you can figure out his real account name) and now leaning toward Unitarian as I do think he truly wants to believe in something and is getting worn down by all the debate and prayers.

But I suggest just staying away from that site. Everyone that signs up on his forum that does not take an ultra-rightwing extremist fundamentalist and even bigoted WASP view is labeled as “unsaved” and is then subject to daily ridicule and mocked by dozens of fictitious “persona”. I really think it is mostly just one man and perhaps a few friends running the site as “the man behind the curtain” who are playing along like they are an entire church membership. It’s a pretty good ruse and many fall for it.

James

 

[GodIsGracious]

James,

ah ha! Well, I did not sign on to that site as generally I simply stay away from such hate and vitriole. I also did not realize it was a fictious “church” either, so they “got me” there. As I have known some evangelicals and fundamentals to have such views that were shown on that forum thread alone.

Unfortunately, they’re out there, James, even though Landover Baptist is fake.

 

[Black_Knight]

People act against knowledge, & the conscience that is their clue to its application, all the time . Human beings are not passionless Brains, like the beings so often seen in science fiction films: they are - we are - swayed by circumstances, emotion, appetite, reason, unreason, our characters, “personal equations”, actions, omissions, knowledge, absence of it - & not least, by our sins. So what ought to be very obvious, often isn’t: & not only in religion; but if in other things this can be so, then it usually can in religion as well. ​

A good point Michael.
Pride is a factor as well. Sometimes we just don’t want to admit to the evidence before us. No one I know likes eating crow. We see and respond to things through the lenses of our own perception and that can make us unreasonable.

Let’s take the hypothetical of someone who perhaps does not want to “lose face” and humbly change. That person might cling to their pride and refuse to come into the Catholic Church even though inside they know that the information presented by the church and us Catholics is sound.

This person would be someone that this passage of the catechism applies to.
Blackie

 

[holy_moly]

books.google.com/books?id=7zao8kBL7CYC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=scott+hahn+no+salvation+outside+the+church&source=bl&ots=lX1ZWYBKaF&sig=X-Pbzliy3PceNPQcUA5hS173Vt4&hl=en&ei=X2NSSt6SJYOuNsCg9b8B&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

Sorry for such a long link. I found an amazing passage by Scott Hahn on our topic in a book that he assisted editing titled “Catholic for a Reason.” The section I am refering to is on page 11, section 4, and I’m hoping that the link will take you straight to it. It wouldn’t allow me to copy/paste the quote. Does anyone disagree with his take on salvation and the church?

I was just reading that page today after buying the book many months ago! When I can figure out what he’s saying, I generally agree w/ him. One of my favorite writers actually.

Jim

 

[tqualey]

Hi, James,

What an inspirational story…thanks for sharing These parents are in a class by themselves…

Yet I know of one family who did not believe in baptism and refused to take my council for an emergency baptism that forgives all sin when their incapacitated daughter was in a comma and facing certain imminent death from a catastrophic automobile accident. She was a friend of a friend’s co-worker who was very upset over it and called me up. She told me that she was afraid for her soul since this person was known to be doing extreme porno movies and all kinds of illicit sex acts “for kicks”. So I knew she was very likely headed for hell unless we could get her baptized. Her parents as her guardians flat out refused out of pure doctrinal pigheadedness and believed that baptism was only “symbolic” and useless. They did not even care about their daughter who was long ago estranged. They were just at the hospital to sign papers to terminate life support. Against pleadings they would not extend the benefit of the doubt about baptism. How close? Close enough for me to go rush out and start saying the Divine Mercy chaplet for an hour and pray for her, a complete stranger to me, on her death bed. And stuff happened. She has a miraculous partial recovery and came out of her coma and in a few weeks got off life support. And while now a complete paraplegic I think God saved her and is giving her time to repent and do penance for a very sinful life and healing her of the suffering she had to grow up with such heartless parents. That is close.

James

God bless

 

[laurenharper]

Hi, Laurenharper,

This was a really great link … and, now I see what you meant by teh size of it… Thanks for sending this!

God bless

Glad you liked it - I was really excited to find it.

Lauren

 

[anon5216]

Just curious how I would be defined as far as the CC “invincible ignorance” definition goes.

I was born and raised Catholic and went through the rituals/sacraments up through confirmation as a child.
None of it ever meant anything more to me than family/social rituals I grew up with.

When I did finally awaken to a real interest in spirituality and read voraciously, I found it in many traditions - but in specific individual person examples (i.e. saints) - not the external group tradition or organizational structures at all.
I do include quite a few Catholic defined saints in that category.

However, I have never found arguments for the exclusivity of “fulness” of Truth claims made by the CC to be at all convincing.
I have also never found undistorted, inerrant “Word of God” claims convincing (of any religion).

Technically I’m not ‘ignorant’ of CC ‘claims’ since I attended a Catholic elementary school for 3 years, and went through Catechism classes as an adolescent - not to mention have been participating on these forums for a while.
(No, I have no recollection of any improprieties by any priests or nuns that would scar a child or repulse someone away from the Church).

I am also not ignorant of the fact that there is indisputable evidence of saintly, spiritually advanced individuals from all times and cultures and religions - believing all kinds of mythologies.
Many of these spiritual giants gave indication of having far transcended any attachment to the mythologies they started out with - even if they may have left the spiritual beginners around them happily still believing them.

So, while I certainly agree that it is possible to become a spiritual giant within the context of the CC and wouldn’t lobby anyone to leave it who truly believes in it and is spiritually at home there,
I personally do not believe the claims made by the CC and would never feel spiritually at home there - even while appreciating some of the saints such as Padre Pio (to name just a recent one).

The CC, as an institution, is clinging far too much to its mythologies for fear of losing control and compromising spiritual integrity.
At least in various Indian spirituality, there is a strong thread of the necessity for transcending mythologies (not that the average masses do so - but it’s there and not hidden away).

With the CC, my impression is that it clings to its mythologies like a drowning person claws at someone attempting to save them - with similar results.

So, regarding my position as stated above, and not only outside the CC, and outside Christianity, but also outside any formal religious system whatsoever:
How does the CC categorize someone like me with regards to the subject of this thread?

 

[holy_moly]

Just curious how I would be defined as far as the CC “invincible ignorance” definition goes.

I was born and raised Catholic and went through the rituals/sacraments up through confirmation as a child.
None of it ever meant anything more to me than family/social rituals I grew up with.

When I did finally awaken to a real interest in spirituality and read voraciously, I found it in many traditions - but in specific individual person examples (i.e. saints) - not the external group tradition or organizational structures at all.
I do include quite a few Catholic defined saints in that category.

However, I have never found arguments for the exclusivity of “fulness” of Truth claims made by the CC to be at all convincing.
I have also never found undistorted, inerrant “Word of God” claims convincing (of any religion).

Technically I’m not ‘ignorant’ of CC ‘claims’ since I attended a Catholic elementary school for 3 years, and went through Catechism classes as an adolescent - not to mention have been participating on these forums for a while.
(No, I have no recollection of any improprieties by any priests or nuns that would scar a child or repulse someone away from the Church).

I am also not ignorant of the fact that there is indisputable evidence of saintly, spiritually advanced individuals from all times and cultures and religions - believing all kinds of mythologies.
Many of these spiritual giants gave indication of having far transcended any attachment to the mythologies they started out with - even if they may have left the spiritual beginners around them happily still believing them.

So, while I certainly agree that it is possible to become a spiritual giant within the context of the CC and wouldn’t lobby anyone to leave it who truly believes in it and is spiritually at home there,
I personally do not believe the claims made by the CC and would never feel spiritually at home there - even while appreciating some of the saints such as Padre Pio (to name just a recent one).

**The CC, as an institution, is clinging far too much to its mythologies for fear of losing control and compromising spiritual integrity.**At least in various Indian spirituality, there is a strong thread of the necessity for transcending mythologies (not that the average masses do so - but it’s there and not hidden away).

With the CC, my impression is that it clings to its mythologies like a drowning person claws at someone attempting to save them - with similar results.

So, regarding my position as stated above, and not only outside the CC, and outside Christianity, but also outside any formal religious system whatsoever:
How does the CC categorize someone like me with regards to the subject of this thread?

Can you explain what you mean by the sentence in bold?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[CentralFLJames]

So, regarding my position as stated above, and not only outside the CC, and outside Christianity, but also outside any formal religious system whatsoever:
How does the CC categorize someone like me with regards to the subject of this thread?

Given that you abandoned your Catholic faith after having being properly instructed it sure seems that your estrangement and loss of faith is in the realm of grave matter. I don’t think invincible ignorance is going to come into play at all. “Once a Catholic always a Catholic” but one must also be in a state of grace and in communion with the Church to gain beatitude.

I think you know the answer here - repent and come home as the prodigals son did.

James

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Anon5216,

I really do not know about a characterization. What you have described, at least to my understanding, is a person without Faith and is simply progressing through releativism. It must be remembered that Faith is a Gift of God and Spirit moves where it will.

It appears that merely sitting through 3 years of elementary catechism classes did not achieve its objective: to get you to learn more about Christ, the Son of God Who died for our sins and established the Catholic Church as the vehicle.

Now, it may be that you are interested in more then some type of ‘label’ - although I do not think that ‘invincible ignorance’ quite fits the situation you have presented here. So, tell me what is it that you DO believe in - more then anything else?

Just curious how I would be defined as far as the CC “invincible ignorance” definition goes.

I was born and raised Catholic and went through the rituals/sacraments up through confirmation as a child.
None of it ever meant anything more to me than family/social rituals I grew up with.

When I did finally awaken to a real interest in spirituality and read voraciously, I found it in many traditions - but in specific individual person examples (i.e. saints) - not the external group tradition or organizational structures at all.
I do include quite a few Catholic defined saints in that category.

However, I have never found arguments for the exclusivity of “fulness” of Truth claims made by the CC to be at all convincing.
I have also never found undistorted, inerrant “Word of God” claims convincing (of any religion).

Technically I’m not ‘ignorant’ of CC ‘claims’ since I attended a Catholic elementary school for 3 years, and went through Catechism classes as an adolescent - not to mention have been participating on these forums for a while.
(No, I have no recollection of any improprieties by any priests or nuns that would scar a child or repulse someone away from the Church).

I am also not ignorant of the fact that there is indisputable evidence of saintly, spiritually advanced individuals from all times and cultures and religions - believing all kinds of mythologies.
Many of these spiritual giants gave indication of having far transcended any attachment to the mythologies they started out with - even if they may have left the spiritual beginners around them happily still believing them.

So, while I certainly agree that it is possible to become a spiritual giant within the context of the CC and wouldn’t lobby anyone to leave it who truly believes in it and is spiritually at home there,
I personally do not believe the claims made by the CC and would never feel spiritually at home there - even while appreciating some of the saints such as Padre Pio (to name just a recent one).

The CC, as an institution, is clinging far too much to its mythologies for fear of losing control and compromising spiritual integrity.
At least in various Indian spirituality, there is a strong thread of the necessity for transcending mythologies (not that the average masses do so - but it’s there and not hidden away).

With the CC, my impression is that it clings to its mythologies like a drowning person claws at someone attempting to save them - with similar results.

So, regarding my position as stated above, and not only outside the CC, and outside Christianity, but also outside any formal religious system whatsoever:
How does the CC categorize someone like me with regards to the subject of this thread?

God bless

 

[thecourt]

Seeking to reply, please. I have and will remain outside, if you will, due to this subject.

Also, what is the process to stop the correspondence from Karl Keating relative supporting Catholic Answers? Is a phone call sufficent for removal from mailing list?

 

[GodIsGracious]

Seeking to reply, please. I have and will remain outside, if you will, due to this subject.

Also, what is the process to stop the correspondence from Karl Keating relative supporting Catholic Answers? Is a phone call sufficent for removal from mailing list?

If you are getting notices from forum messages, you’ll need to go into your profile and remove subscriptions. Also, when you reply, make sure you don’t “subscribe” to the thread. I think you can look around your profile to turn off automatic subscriptions.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Seeking to reply, please. I have and will remain outside, if you will, due to this subject.

Also, what is the process to stop the correspondence from Karl Keating relative supporting Catholic Answers? Is a phone call sufficent for removal from mailing list?

TheCourt - would you please share why this single topic is compelling you to remain outside the Church? Does it seem unjust that there can be only one truth or does it seem to violate some aspect of your perception of God’s nature? I am just curious.

James

 

[Black_Knight]

GodIsGracious:
If you are getting notices from forum messages, you’ll need to go into your profile and remove subscriptions. Also, when you reply, make sure you don’t “subscribe” to the thread. I think you can look around your profile to turn off automatic subscriptions.Yep…and you can simply write an e-mail to ForumAdmin@Catholic.com and they will handle it.

 

[anon5216]

Can you explain what you mean by the sentence in bold?

Thanks,
Jim

Well, I’m outside the Church and so the CC says there is no salvation for me unless some extraordinary grace happens or I am invincibly ignorant - or something like that.
CFLJames and tqualey seem to think invincible ignorance doesn’t apply to my situation.

 

[anon5216]

Given that you abandoned your Catholic faith after having being properly instructed it sure seems that your estrangement and loss of faith is in the realm of grave matter. I don’t think invincible ignorance is going to come into play at all. “Once a Catholic always a Catholic” but one must also be in a state of grace and in communion with the Church to gain beatitude.

I think you know the answer here - repent and come home as the prodigals son did.

James

James,

Since I never believed in CC mythology, how could I have abandoned a faith I never had?

I may have been told what to believe, but I never actually bought into it. So again, since I never had Catholic faith, how could I possibly have lost it.

Same with “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic”. I was under the impression that being Catholic was defined as believing all the things the CC requires you to believe.
Since I never believed those things, was I ever really a Catholic at all?
Is it really CC doctrine that merely having official magical CC incantations said to one makes them forever bound to the CC?
I still have to come back to being truly Catholic would have to mean a person truly believes all of CC belief requirements, not just being listed on some membership roll.

Regarding “invincible ignorance”, is it just your opinion or official CC doctrine that once a person as been informed of CC claims that they are then bound by them - regardless of ever having believed said claims?
That concept sounds like a bizarre combination of naivete and spiritual hubris.

Don’t get me wrong. I do believe people like Padre Pio were spiritual giants and developed into that within the context of CC mythology.
They simply aren’t the only spiritual giants and CC mythology isn’t the only one that allowed people to reach those spiritual heights.
At the same time, buying into whatever mythology they did is not the ultimate source of their spiritual development.

 

[anon5216]

Hi, Anon5216,

I really do not know about a characterization. What you have described, at least to my understanding, is a person without Faith and is simply progressing through releativism. It must be remembered that Faith is a Gift of God and Spirit moves where it will.

It appears that merely sitting through 3 years of elementary catechism classes did not achieve its objective: to get you to learn more about Christ, the Son of God Who died for our sins and established the Catholic Church as the vehicle.

Now, it may be that you are interested in more then some type of ‘label’ - although I do not think that ‘invincible ignorance’ quite fits the situation you have presented here. So, tell me what is it that you DO believe in - more then anything else?

God bless

Hi tqualey,

To start, I am not a person without Faith. I am a person without Catholic faith.

Relativism doesn’t describe me either. I do not believe that Truth is relative.
I do however, realize that mythology is relative and to the extent that a person believes their mythology is actual Truth - those people are living in relativism and I would say the vast majority are there.
I include Catholics in that category as well as most people in most religious traditions.

Regarding catechism, 3 years at Catholic elementary school I don’t remember how much catechesis there was - I was referring to after school catechism as an adolescent later.
But yes, if you mean it did not achieve its objective of forming my mind with the definitive imprint of CC beliefs - you are correct, that didn’t happen.

What do I believe in? Good question.
In a sense, less and less - of my own favorite mythologies.

I do believe in God, as my signature affirms - but I am really working on divesting from my ideas about God, so in a sense I’m becoming more and more of a spiritual atheist.
Not, however, in the ordinary sense of simply believing that God doesn’t exist - that’s no more than another mythology itself - a conclusion based on inference drawn from ignorance.
I’m referring to the striping away of illusory beliefs to allow for direct spiritual experience of Truth instead of worshipping of ideas of Truth (which is nothing more than ideological idolatry).

Before you go down this road - no, I don’t mean simply being a blank mind, open to whatever weird idea coming along that may enter.
Spiritual mythologies do have a usefulness in focusing and directing the spiritual will - but it’s clear they must be transcended to actually get to what the mythologies can only hint at.