Outside the Church there is no salvation

[tqualey]

Hi, Anon5216,

I know James is perfectly capable of responding … I was just up early and thought I would get a head start on a cup of coffee when I came across your post…and decided to jump in…

James, Since I never believed in CC mythology, how could I have abandoned a faith I never had? I may have been told what to believe, but I never actually bought into it. So again, since I never had Catholic faith, how could I possibly have lost it.

I guess what has me intrigued is your insistance on an answer from participants in Catholic Answers Forum, when you obviously already have the answer you want. Coming from a ‘mythology’ base, as you have characterized Catholicism, what ‘myth’ could possibly answer whatever question it is that you are really asking?

As I see it, you are a baptized Catholic - and, as you will recall from your earlier instruction, this wonderous event has permanently identified your soul as being a child of God, and heir to heaven. But, you still have to believe and then WORK with the Grace of God to collect your inheritance…and, there’s the rub Is this real - or, another ‘myth’? Was Jesus Who He said He was or a fraud? Did Buddha die for your sins?

My ‘bet’ is that, notwithstanding your contemptious and disdainful post - you are not sure… The evidence for this, in my opinion, is that you are on this site asking for the opinions of participants and trying to hide behind a fig leaf of ‘invincible ignorance’ of all things! Good grief, man, are you serious? What kind of game are you playing?

Shouldn’t you have the confidence of your non-convictions? I mean, what value is there to relativism if it does not numb this apparent throbing insecurity? This is enough to cross an agnostic’s eyes!

Now, if there is anything beyond St. Padre Pio being more then a ‘nice guy’ … you may want to look at his life in some detail and then begin to follow his example as he live out his life. Do what you can in this area… it really is a tall assignment! If you are sincere, you will come to a better undestanding of Christ, our Savior, who St. Padre Pio was following on a daily basis. Personally, I think St. Pade Pio would be an excellent saint to pray to as you work through whatever difficulty this is that you are facing. Here is a link that may help get you started: padrepio.org/default.asp?page=home I am sure you can find additional links on St. Padre Pio.

God bless

 

[holy_moly]

Well, I’m outside the Church and so the CC says there is no salvation for me unless some extraordinary grace happens or I am invincibly ignorant - or something like that.
CFLJames and tqualey seem to think invincible ignorance doesn’t apply to my situation.

It does sound like you’ve had enough formation that you can’t play the ii card, however you do seem to be in an intellectally honest search. Take tqualey’s advice to heat & embrace Padre Pio a bit. Start there & perhaps you’ll be inspired to talk w/ a priest, maybe even have him hear your confession. Trust me, as a Catholic who has fallen away a number of times (but no more!), there IS grace in the sacraments & that’s no myth! I will also pray for you…
Jim

 

[steve_b]

Since I never believed in CC mythology, how could I have abandoned a faith I never had?

Does that mean you were baptized as an infant but never taught the faith, or participated in any other sacrament? Or were you just going through the motions?.

anon:

I may have been told what to believe, but I never actually bought into it. So again, since I never had Catholic faith, how could I possibly have lost it.

IOW you were disobedient.

anon:

Same with “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic”. I was under the impression that being Catholic was defined as believing all the things the CC requires you to believe.

Being baptized automatically brings you into the Catholic Church. There is no other Church. Your parents at that point have a responsibility to raise you as a Catholic teaching you the faith. THEN it is your responsibility to continue your education in the Catholic faith so you won’t become ineffective and fall away

our first pope explains as follows

:

[2 Pet 1: … ]

5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, * to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things. 16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

As Peter said, knowledge takes effort but each person MUST make every effort to increase their faith with among other attributes, knowledge of our faith. And it needs to be ever increasing. It can’t stop. That’s OUR individual responsibility throughout our lives. And the Catholic Church has incredible resources for individuals to provide the increases in education of the faith.

And as you can see he anticipated those who would come along and charge the Catholic Faith with myths. These people as he said have already fallen and put their election in jeopardy.

anon:

Since I never believed those things, was I ever really a Catholic at all?
Is it really CC doctrine that merely having official magical CC incantations said to one makes them forever bound to the CC?
I still have to come back to being truly Catholic would have to mean a person truly believes all of CC belief requirements, not just being listed on some membership roll.

Regarding “invincible ignorance”, is it just your opinion or official CC doctrine that once a person as been informed of CC claims that they are then bound by them - regardless of ever having believed said claims?
That concept sounds like a bizarre combination of naivete and spiritual hubris.

Don’t get me wrong. I do believe people like Padre Pio were spiritual giants and developed into that within the context of CC mythology.
They simply aren’t the only spiritual giants and CC **mythology **isn’t the only one that allowed people to reach those spiritual heights.
At the same time, buying into whatever mythology they did is not the ultimate source of their spiritual development.

• Unless one is mentally retarded or has some learning disability, Invincible ignorance maybe very difficult or near impossible for a normal person to think they are invincibly ignorant in this area. But only God will sort that out.
• As far as what the invisable God implants in each individual about Himself, and confirms His existance about Himself by what He makes, there is NO excuse for any man to believe God exists or what He made[Rm 1:20…] How much more will it apply also to the man who refuses to believe in The Catholic Church the only Church God made? There is NO excuse for refusing either entering it, or remain in it.
• as Peter assures, what the Catholic Church teaches isn’t myth. Come home and learn your faith.

 

[holy_moly]

It does sound like you’ve had enough formation that you can’t play the ii card, however you do seem to be in an intellectally honest search. Take tqualey’s advice to heat & embrace Padre Pio a bit. Start there & perhaps you’ll be inspired to talk w/ a priest, maybe even have him hear your confession. Trust me, as a Catholic who has fallen away a number of times (but no more!), there IS grace in the sacraments & that’s no myth! I will also pray for you…
Jim

Augustine said, ‘my heart won’t rest until it rests w/ thee’… I think that is true of all hearts.

 

[laurenharper]

Augustine said, ‘my heart won’t rest until it rests w/ thee’… I think that is true of all hearts.

Very nice quote.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Anon5216,

Pretty soon you will be talking about the meaning of meaning …

Well, I’m outside the Church and so the CC says there is no salvation for me unless some extraordinary grace happens or I am invincibly ignorant - or something like that. CFLJames and tqualey seem to think invincible ignorance doesn’t apply to my situation.

I really think you need to get past your engulfing fixation on mythologies. Try responding to Post #328 … ah… that would be mine… and I am trying in my own way to get you to look as some objective reality.

This “spiritual atheistic view” is the stuff that causes some folks to lose control of their minds. Not a healthy way to be.

God bless

 

[CentralFLJames]

James,

Since I never believed in CC mythology, how could I have abandoned a faith I never had?

I think you need to be adult here and try to be more intellectually honest with yourself anon. There is a lot on the line. I reject the absurd implication that as a young Catholic boy that you even had the verbal and intellectual wherewithal to even utter a 4 part polysyllabic word like my·thol·o·gy, much less understand then all its complex socio-religious semantical nuances to your youthful world context and still be where you are today in that same original adolescently formed epiphany where you can still declare infallibly that the Catholic Religion is"mythology". If you were so smart back then do you really think you can make a case for Invincible Ignorance before God?

Don’t you see your own logical fallacy? God does. How can you claim on one hand that you were invincibly ignorant about what Catholicism taught when you were a child but managed to have the infallible wisdom to declare it mythology and even carry all that adolescent anger and baggage around with you all these many past decades into adulthood? Please… If it turns out Catholics have it right, do you really expect to stand before Almighty God and dare to plead that you were ignorant when you were a mere lad even as you claimed then and again as an adult that you were absolutely sure it was all mythology? So it all becomes an error of judgement and not rejection of God and His Church? So are you admitting you understand Catholicism enough now to reaffirm it as mythology? Frankly I would not be expecting that kind of self contradictory hubris to garner a whole lot of Mercy from God. And if you do get the benefit of the doubt on invincible ignorance don’t be surprised if you are found guilty of grave-cheekiness.

I may have been told what to believe, but I never actually bought into it. So again, since I never had Catholic faith, how could I possibly have lost it.

You had the faith of your parents. But you rejected it.

Same with “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic”. I was under the impression that being Catholic was defined as believing all the things the CC requires you to believe.

You have a misunderstanding on what a Catholic is. You were baptised Catholic and now have an obligation to continue perfecting that faith. Do you need to know and master all aspects of your human psychology and physiology to be a human? Be the best that you can be with the caveat that “to much that is given much is expected”. God gave you a good intellect and He expects you to use it and desires for you to honor him by loving him with all your heart, mind and soul.

Regarding “invincible ignorance”, is it just your opinion or official CC doctrine that once a person as been informed of CC claims that they are then bound by them - regardless of ever having believed said claims?
That concept sounds like a bizarre combination of naivete and spiritual hubris.

You asked for opinions and now you want to criticize them? We told you that only God can know for certain the interior state of your soul and what conditions exist in your psyche to gage sincerity or self-deception. So are you here to win a contest of debate or are you here to mitigate anxiety about lingering doubts or are you here just for rhetorical exchange or to pull others out of their faith?

Don’t get me wrong. I do believe people like Padre Pio were spiritual giants and developed into that within the context of CC mythology.
…

I notice that you use the mythology word a lot as if you are trying to convince yourself and others that this opinion of yours will become accepted as truth if only you say it enough or somone does not challenge you each time you say it. Kind of reminds me of the kids game that went like this on any argument that one cared to argue over to feel relevant or better than one’s playmate: "Is so - is not - is so - is not is not - is so is so - not not - so so - not times infinity - so x infinity +1). Geeze, give it a rest already guy. What do you want pandering so you can feel secure in your own private spirituality or are you looking for a choir to come join your church? If you want to risk your eternity that is your business and if you can convince God that you really are invincibly ignorant then more power to you. But now, based on your self-recursive line of reasoning I now think you might have a new case by reason of disordered facilities. They say God drives mad those He intends to destroy but I think otherwise and see it as divine intervention to grant mercy through removal of facilities (a spiritual lobotomy of sorts). But that idea bothers the double-predestiny Calvinists who insist that those destined to hell can’t escape that fate. Someday, if you remind me I will share another theory about why the pandemic of Alzheimer’s could really be God’s blessings in disguise – assuming I can remember all the particulars. But right now I am occupied trying to remember why I have this string tied around my finger.

Matthew 25:29
For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.

My advise, try not to lose what little faith you have left. Even a thread of supernatural grace is a better fig-leaf than a raw plea of ignorance to God that you were not really so sure about the mythology as you had lead others on to believe and follow you. Personally I think He condems more atheists and do-it-yourself spiritual voyeurs for lack of sincerity than He does for lack of faith and self centeredness.

James

 

[jean8]

846 …they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
CCC

Why would someone “refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” if they know “that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ”?
Wouldn’t such person NOT know?
Unless they did not want salvation…

look,
Those who do not love their fellow Christians are not living in the light, but instead are living in darkness. they are not abiding in life, but in death. v,14 What they are doing is not of God, but of the devil. Jn.3:13-14

We are commanded by Jesus to love one another. Jn.13;34 reads “A new command
I give you: Love one another , as I have loved you, By this you will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Do you really believe that Jesus died on the cross fo Catholic believers only? Oneness Pentecostals believe the same thing. Please give this some thought.

We also are not to judge one another. See Mt:7:1-5
May I ask ,
How much time do you take reading God’s word each day?

God bless you,
jean

PS The sin of pride may fall into judging others too. See Prov…16:18

 

[holy_moly]

Very nice quote.

thanks- sometimes i think the simple one’s are best…

 

[jean8]

846 …they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
CCC

Why would someone “refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” if they know “that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ”?
Wouldn’t such person NOT know?
Unless they did not want salvation…

look,
I looked up 846 . I found this teaching doesn’t offer a scripture from the Bible. to substantiate what 846 reads…
It is difficult for me to believe that Christ died for Catholics only. While I do believe some are saved just as I think some non-catholics are saved. Having a personal relationship with our Savior is needed, and to live a holy life and loving others. That is just the beginning of salvation.
See 1Cor.13;13

God bless you,
jean

 

[anon5216]

Hi, Anon5216,
…
I guess what has me intrigued is your insistance on an answer from participants in Catholic Answers Forum, when you obviously already have the answer you want. Coming from a ‘mythology’ base, as you have characterized Catholicism, what ‘myth’ could possibly answer whatever question it is that you are really asking?
It is not a question of “what answer do I want to hear”.
My question was expressed to clearly find out what the CC & CC member position was in my specific case.
Regarding “what myth could possibly answer my spiritual questions?”, None.
Wasn’t that explicitly clear from my last response to you?

As I see it, you are a baptized Catholic - and, as you will recall from your earlier instruction, this wonderous event has permanently identified your soul as being a child of God, and heir to heaven. But, you still have to believe and then WORK with the Grace of God to collect your inheritance…and, there’s the rub Is this real - or, another ‘myth’? Was Jesus Who He said He was or a fraud? Did Buddha die for your sins?
But I don’t believe the CC myths.
And the proper next question is “Did Jesus actually claim what others claim He claimed - and in the manner in which these others claimed it?; or did these others inadequately try to explain something way over their heads?”
Dying for someone else’s sins in not part of Buddhist myth - that’s an irrelevant question.

My ‘bet’ is that, notwithstanding your contemptious and disdainful post - you are not sure… The evidence for this, in my opinion, is that you are on this site asking for the opinions of participants and trying to hide behind a fig leaf of ‘invincible ignorance’ of all things! Good grief, man, are you serious? What kind of game are you playing?
I’m sorry you think not believing CC claims is synonymous with contempt and disdain.
Regarding ‘invincible ignorance’, I merely want to get a clear understanding of how the CC uses the term.
It’s obvious from everyones responses that it is used in the most superficial meaning.
In other words, as long as I have a normally functioning brain and have heard or read CC claims, in a language that I’m familiar with, then ‘invincible ignorance’ can not apply.
I was probing for a distinction between form and substance.
Substance as I’m using the word in this case would mean a person honestly came to a personal conclusion that CC claims were Truth, and yet rejected adapting to said claims.
I would definitely agree that within a Catholic belief system context, that scenario could not be called ignorance, let alone of the ‘invincible’ variety.

Shouldn’t you have the confidence of your non-convictions? I mean, what value is there to relativism if it does not numb this apparent throbing insecurity? This is enough to cross an agnostic’s eyes!
To assume that conclusion requires one to never inquire into another’s convictions unless you are insecure in your own.
But if that is the case, that actually implies the person who won’t inquire about other’s convictions is the one who lacks confidence, for fear of their own convictions weakening.

As I explicitly mentioned in my last post to you, I do not believe in relativism.

Now, if there is anything beyond St. Padre Pio being more then a ‘nice guy’ … you may want to look at his life in some detail and then begin to follow his example as he live out his life. Do what you can in this area… it really is a tall assignment! If you are sincere, you will come to a better undestanding of Christ, our Savior, who St. Padre Pio was following on a daily basis. Personally, I think St. Pade Pio would be an excellent saint to pray to as you work through whatever difficulty this is that you are facing. Here is a link that may help get you started: padrepio.org/default.asp?page=home I am sure you can find additional links on St. Padre Pio.
I would hardly reference Padre Pio as a spiritual giant if I considered him a mere ‘nice guy’.
I was deeply inspired by his life story long before the CC even beatified him.

God bless

 

[anon5216]

It does sound like you’ve had enough formation that you can’t play the ii card, however you do seem to be in an intellectally honest search. Take tqualey’s advice to heat & embrace Padre Pio a bit. Start there & perhaps you’ll be inspired to talk w/ a priest, maybe even have him hear your confession. Trust me, as a Catholic who has fallen away a number of times (but no more!), there IS grace in the sacraments & that’s no myth! I will also pray for you…
Jim

Prayers are always welcome, but please pray for my soul’s highest good - not for me to merely accept the same belief system as you.
I will in turn, pray for your soul’s highest good - whatever that may be, regardless of how that highest good may, or may not, relate to my belief system.

 

[anon5216]

Does that mean you were baptized as an infant but never taught the faith, or participated in any other sacrament? Or were you just going through the motions?.
From my original post:

I was born and raised Catholic and went through the rituals/sacraments up through confirmation

IOW you were disobedient.
Curious response.
Belief has to follow rational inquiry and honest conclusion.
You would have to abandon all rational thought and all honesty to simply obey and ‘believe’ what you are told.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not claiming an honest, rational person would never conclude CC claims were true - rational and honest conclusions are not guaranteed accurate.

Being baptized automatically brings you into the Catholic Church. There is no other Church. Your parents at that point have a responsibility to raise you as a Catholic teaching you the faith. THEN it is your responsibility to continue your education in the Catholic faith so you won’t become ineffective and fall away
I don’t believe having magical incantations said over one automatically does anything, and therefore have not ‘responsibility’ to act in accordance with those incantations.

our first pope explains as follows
[2 Pet 1: … ]

5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, * to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things. 16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

As Peter said, knowledge takes effort but each person MUST make every effort to increase their faith with among other attributes, knowledge of our faith. And it needs to be ever increasing. It can’t stop. That’s OUR individual responsibility throughout our lives. And the Catholic Church has incredible resources for individuals to provide the increases in education of the faith.
I can agree the apostles were eyewitnesses of Jesus.
But I believe the experience of Jesus was way over their heads and their response to that experience and teachings based on that experience were not uncolored by their spiritual ignorance - and therefore degenerated into myth eventually.

And as you can see he anticipated those who would come along and charge the Catholic Faith with myths. These people as he said have already fallen and put their election in jeopardy.
He only anticipated people would come along and claim that the person of Jesus was a myth. I do believe there was a historical Jesus of great spiritual stature, but the quote you presented doesn’t counter my prior statement.

• Unless one is mentally retarded or has some learning disability, Invincible ignorance maybe very difficult or near impossible for a normal person to think they are invincibly ignorant in this area. But only God will sort that out.
• As far as what the invisable God implants in each individual about Himself, and confirms His existance about Himself by what He makes, there is NO excuse for any man to believe God exists or what He made[Rm 1:20…] How much more will it apply also to the man who refuses to believe in The Catholic Church the only Church God made? There is NO excuse for refusing either entering it, or remain in it.
• as Peter assures, what the Catholic Church teaches isn’t myth. Come home and learn your faith.

The CC requires belief in all their claims to be Catholic, does it not? The CC itself does not allow me entry by that requirement.

[/QUOTE]

 

[anon5216]

Hi, Anon5216,
…
I really think you need to get past your engulfing fixation on mythologies. Try responding to Post #328 … ah… that would be mine… and I am trying in my own way to get you to look as some objective reality.
Funny, that’s precisely one of my big complaints with Catholicism.
Regarding Post #328, see my post #338

This “spiritual atheistic view” is the stuff that causes some folks to lose control of their minds. Not a healthy way to be.
As generic advice for generic spiritual aspirants, that’s certainly an appropriate, safe statement.

God bless

 

[anon5216]

I think you need to be adult here and try to be more intellectually honest with yourself anon. There is a lot on the line. I reject the absurd implication that as a young Catholic boy that you even had the verbal and intellectual wherewithal to even utter a 4 part polysyllabic word like my·thol·o·gy, much less understand then all its complex socio-religious semantical nuances to your youthful world context and still be where you are today in that same original adolescently formed epiphany where you can still declare infallibly that the Catholic Religion is"mythology".
Nowhere did I claim my current statements were derived from my awareness as a kid in elementary school - nor as a teenager taking catechism classes.
(Although I’m sure even you had to learn some 4 syllable vocabulary words while still in high school. )
Make sure you are being intellectually honest and not just egotistically condescending in your responses.
If you were so smart back then do you really think you can make a case for Invincible Ignorance before God?
I’m not looking to make any case for anything before God with this inquiry.
I’m merely looking to get an accurate view of CC doctrine regarding this idea.

Don’t you see your own logical fallacy? God does. How can you claim on one hand that you were invincibly ignorant about what Catholicism taught when you were a child but managed to have the infallible wisdom to declare it mythology and even carry all that adolescent anger and baggage around with you all these many past decades into adulthood? Please…
Why do you assume that my current views were developed and articulated entirely as a child, only to be repeated ad nauseam into eventual old age.
Why do you assume that not finding CC claims believable is synonymous with anger?
Are you angry at everything you don’t find believable or every idea you disagree with?
If it turns out Catholics have it right, do you really expect to stand before Almighty God and dare to plead that you were ignorant when you were a mere lad even as you claimed then and again as an adult that you were absolutely sure it was all mythology? So it all becomes an error of judgement and not rejection of God and His Church? So are you admitting you understand Catholicism enough now to reaffirm it as mythology? Frankly I would not be expecting that kind of self contradictory hubris to garner a whole lot of Mercy from God. And if you do get the benefit of the doubt on invincible ignorance don’t be surprised if you are found guilty of grave-cheekiness.
Personally, I find CC claims to be the height of hubris. I’m sorry if anyone finds that statement offensive, but it is my honest perception.

You had the faith of your parents. But you rejected it.
No, I never had the faith of my parents. I thought I made that explicitly clear already.
Don’t confuse faith with externally going through the motions of religious ritual.
If you are making that mistake in your own spiritual life, don’t be surprised at the state of your soul post physical death.

You have a misunderstanding on what a Catholic is. You were baptised Catholic and now have an obligation to continue perfecting that faith. Do you need to know and master all aspects of your human psychology and physiology to be a human? Be the best that you can be with the caveat that “to much that is given much is expected”. God gave you a good intellect and He expects you to use it and desires for you to honor him by loving him with all your heart, mind and soul.
I agree with your last sentence - we simply have different approaches on the method of implementation.

continued…

 

[anon5216]

You asked for opinions and now you want to criticize them? We told you that only God can know for certain the interior state of your soul and what conditions exist in your psyche to gage sincerity or self-deception. So are you here to win a contest of debate or are you here to mitigate anxiety about lingering doubts or are you here just for rhetorical exchange or to pull others out of their faith?
I have no aspirations to making a fortune as a professional debater, so winning a debate is not meaningful.
I haven’t asked this question to mitigate anxiety and don’t have the time to waste in meaningless rhetorical exchange.

And I’ve repeatedly made clear that I’m not trying to pull anyone out of their faith - Padre Pio is quite good recent evidence that significant spiritual results are possible within the context of the CC.

I notice that you use the mythology word a lot as if you are trying to convince yourself and others that this opinion of yours will become accepted as truth if only you say it enough or somone does not challenge you each time you say it. Kind of reminds me of the kids game that went like this on any argument that one cared to argue over to feel relevant or better than one’s playmate: "Is so - is not - is so - is not is not - is so is so - not not - so so - not times infinity - so x infinity +1). Geeze, give it a rest already guy. What do you want pandering so you can feel secure in your own private spirituality or are you looking for a choir to come join your church? If you want to risk your eternity that is your business and if you can convince God that you really are invincibly ignorant then more power to you. But now, based on your self-recursive line of reasoning I now think you might have a new case by reason of disordered facilities. They say God drives mad those He intends to destroy but I think otherwise and see it as divine intervention to grant mercy through removal of facilities (a spiritual lobotomy of sorts). But that idea bothers the double-predestiny Calvinists who insist that those destined to hell can’t escape that fate. Someday, if you remind me I will share another theory about why the pandemic of Alzheimer’s could really be God’s blessings in disguise – assuming I can remember all the particulars. But right now I am occupied trying to remember why I have this string tied around my finger.
The word conveys my meaning. If it’s getting overused, I’ll have to look for adequate phrases that convey the same concept without reusing that particular alphabet sequence.
Regarding the rest of your above paragraph: James, we’ve had this exchange before - give it a rest already.

Matthew 25:29
For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Think about form vs. substance relative to applying this quote.

My advise, try not to lose what little faith you have left. Even a thread of supernatural grace is a better fig-leaf than a raw plea of ignorance to God that you were not really so sure about the mythology as you had lead others on to believe and follow you. Personally I think He condems more atheists and do-it-yourself spiritual voyeurs for lack of sincerity than He does for lack of faith and self centeredness.
I am quite sincere in my spiritual life and have no dearth of faith.
I am not looking for followers - I’ve made it quite clear on several occasions that I am in no way qualified to be anyone’s spiritual director.
If you claim to serve in that function in your life outside of these forums (or even on them), rest assured I am not looking to ‘steal’ away anyone’s disciples or acolytes.

James

 

[tqualey]

Hi, James,

I read your posts and the ones that followed - plus Anon’s responses (or, in some cases, non-responses) and I think you have captured the essence in your post here! Now, this is a sad capture … but, you’ve called a spade a spade and he has turned up a few more cards.

The one item that caught me by surprise was your term: "…found guilty of grave-cheekiness.: item. i did get a chuckle out of that.

Anon claims he has no time for rhetorical exchanges, so I guess this will end the show he is putting on. The idea of him trying to claim anything other then desertion of the Faith while he claims to admire Padre Pio is really astounding. Personally, I do not see how this has any bearing on anything. By the way, did you know there is ‘new’ way to spell “denial”? Yeah, it goes D.E.K.I.A.L. (Don’t Even Know I Am Lying)!

Enjoyed reading your post.

God bless

I think you need to be adult here and try to be more intellectually honest with yourself anon. There is a lot on the line. I reject the absurd implication that as a young Catholic boy that you even had the verbal and intellectual wherewithal to even utter a 4 part polysyllabic word like my·thol·o·gy, much less understand then all its complex socio-religious semantical nuances to your youthful world context and still be where you are today in that same original adolescently formed epiphany where you can still declare infallibly that the Catholic Religion is"mythology". If you were so smart back then do you really think you can make a case for Invincible Ignorance before God?

Don’t you see your own logical fallacy? God does. How can you claim on one hand that you were invincibly ignorant about what Catholicism taught when you were a child but managed to have the infallible wisdom to declare it mythology and even carry all that adolescent anger and baggage around with you all these many past decades into adulthood? Please… If it turns out Catholics have it right, do you really expect to stand before Almighty God and dare to plead that you were ignorant when you were a mere lad even as you claimed then and again as an adult that you were absolutely sure it was all mythology? So it all becomes an error of judgement and not rejection of God and His Church? So are you admitting you understand Catholicism enough now to reaffirm it as mythology? Frankly I would not be expecting that kind of self contradictory hubris to garner a whole lot of Mercy from God. And if you do get the benefit of the doubt on invincible ignorance don’t be surprised if you are found guilty of grave-cheekiness.

You had the faith of your parents. But you rejected it.

You have a misunderstanding on what a Catholic is. You were baptised Catholic and now have an obligation to continue perfecting that faith. Do you need to know and master all aspects of your human psychology and physiology to be a human? Be the best that you can be with the caveat that “to much that is given much is expected”. God gave you a good intellect and He expects you to use it and desires for you to honor him by loving him with all your heart, mind and soul.

You asked for opinions and now you want to criticize them? We told you that only God can know for certain the interior state of your soul and what conditions exist in your psyche to gage sincerity or self-deception. So are you here to win a contest of debate or are you here to mitigate anxiety about lingering doubts or are you here just for rhetorical exchange or to pull others out of their faith?

I notice that you use the mythology word a lot as if you are trying to convince yourself and others that this opinion of yours will become accepted as truth if only you say it enough or somone does not challenge you each time you say it. Kind of reminds me of the kids game that went like this on any argument that one cared to argue over to feel relevant or better than one’s playmate: "Is so - is not - is so - is not is not - is so is so - not not - so so - not times infinity - so x infinity +1). Geeze, give it a rest already guy. What do you want pandering so you can feel secure in your own private spirituality or are you looking for a choir to come join your church? If you want to risk your eternity that is your business and if you can convince God that you really are invincibly ignorant then more power to you. But now, based on your self-recursive line of reasoning I now think you might have a new case by reason of disordered facilities. They say God drives mad those He intends to destroy but I think otherwise and see it as divine intervention to grant mercy through removal of facilities (a spiritual lobotomy of sorts). But that idea bothers the double-predestiny Calvinists who insist that those destined to hell can’t escape that fate. Someday, if you remind me I will share another theory about why the pandemic of Alzheimer’s could really be God’s blessings in disguise – assuming I can remember all the particulars. But right now I am occupied trying to remember why I have this string tied around my finger.

Matthew 25:29
For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.

My advise, try not to lose what little faith you have left. Even a thread of supernatural grace is a better fig-leaf than a raw plea of ignorance to God that you were not really so sure about the mythology as you had lead others on to believe and follow you. Personally I think He condems more atheists and do-it-yourself spiritual voyeurs for lack of sincerity than He does for lack of faith and self centeredness.

James

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Jean8,

You are having a problem here because of two main reasons: (1) you insist that teaching can only come from the Bible - as opposed to teaching coming from the organization that put the Bible together (and, that would be the Catholic Chruch) and…

look,
I looked up 846 . I found this teaching doesn’t offer a scripture from the Bible. to substantiate what 846 reads…
It is difficult for me to believe that Christ died for Catholics only. While I do believe some are saved just as I think some non-catholics are saved. Having a personal relationship with our Savior is needed, and to live a holy life and loving others. That is just the beginning of salvation. See 1Cor.13;13 God bless you, jean

(2) Christ was quite clear that if we are (as opposed to merely claiming) to follow Him we are to do the following things:

** - believe in the Church Christ founded on Peter (and his successors) [Matt 16]

• be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit [Matt 28]
• confess your sins to Christ’s representatives on earth [John 20]
• eat the Flesh and drink the Blood of Jesus Christ to have life in you [John 6]
• love one another as Christ has loved us [John 15]**

I only provided the Author and Chapter and omitted the specific verse because so much difficulty has been created by omitting the context in which the specific verse appears. In my opinion, if you are sincere in your quest for specific Scripture, this will not present a problem. This should give you enough Scripture to satisfy your request for the need to unite with the Chruch of Christ (and, that would be the Catholic Church). The alternative is to stay with the chruch you are with and this is a church founded by a man.

The only thing remaining, at least as I appreciate it, is to now put these words into practice.

God bless

 

[CentralFLJames]

Hi, James,

I read your posts and the ones that followed - plus Anon’s responses (or, in some cases, non-responses) and I think you have captured the essence in your post here! Now, this is a sad capture … but, you’ve called a spade a spade and he has turned up a few more cards.
…
Enjoyed reading your post.

God bless

Thanks - glad you enjoyed reading it.

Gauging on past comments I think Anon imagines that he has found a higher and better “way” that is above the mere religion of Christianity. I don’t think he believes that God requires that he be beholding to anything but his own conscience and reason. The problem with his mindset is that it ignores the blatant evidence seen in history of a progressive darkening of intellect anytime reason is separated from faith. By faith I mean an orthodox Christian faith since it is axiomatic to me that truth is not multivalued and therefor there is only one true faith. No other faith on the planet has been as fruitful nor as corrupted by imitators and human tinkerers bent on reforming it to their own liking…

[sign]Temporary Detour Warning[/sign]
My complaint here is that except for occasional serendipity (grace?) I really doubt that form can follow function to produce anything beautiful when a darkened intellect seeks truth in the recesses of its own shadows. Nope, without faith illumining the intellect I’d only expect one would encounter variations of disordered and unnatural functions that are not of the Divine Order. How then could we ever hope to get anything but perverse forms from unnatural function? I don’t know how religious Picasso was when he voyeured into his Analytic Cubism (I am told he was baptised as a child). But I am curious just what was in his heart and mind when he drew his Les Demoiselles works: 5 nude prostitutes blatantly unsentimental, barbaric with mask-like faces devoid of soul and unable to engage their senses - yet able to provoke our natural sense of order to revulsion. I am no expert in art and I know the man lost a young sister at a young age - sorrow, rage, cries for help? Lex orandi, lex credendi - “the law of prayer is the law of belief” - The Church prays as she believes. So too I think that ‘The World cries as she suffers’ and the arts ever since the Reformation having been screaming the loudest . Was Pis Christ a premature demonic cry of victory on earth or a last ditch despairing cry from humanity to get the attention of God to save us from the hell we are creating for ourselves?

Abstract art now completely dominates the hedonistic Western world. It reveals profound estrangement, contradiction and sad testimony to the condition of our Western post-Christian civilization. We must call it as it really is - its not Christian anymore. We remnant Christians can see it all as a cultural cry for salvation from our self made materialistic carnality. I really don’t think any sort of Existentialism is going to do us any good - that was only just one of the many failed experiments of our post-Christian culture that have been tried. Frankly by provoking God I think we are inviting our culture to revisit the persecution of our first century Christian heritage to reseed the planet with a new crop of Christian martyers to regain the soul of humanity. If not that then we may be approaching epoch and it may be Alas Babylon…
[sign]Exit Detour Back to OP[/sign]

Amon has no need for a church or anyone else - except for perhaps a “spiritual advisor” to spot check him. I always wondered about that latter bit - where does one go shopping for one and how would you know who to trust?

If you look behind what he says he really seems to subscribe to a generalized hinduistic framework of belief. Perhaps he is here looking for a virtual swami to give him checkpoints as a safety-check against the possibility that he has gone so far down the road to “master oneself” that he has attained that difficult nirvana of “freedom from his senses”. That suggests that he is at least clever enough to know that its impossible to be objective if one is cut off from reality and has no sensory (name removed by moderator)uts. I’ll extend the benefit of the doubt and take that as a weak admission of fallibility. There’s still hope. But it could all be a self-deceiving ruse to gain self affirmation. Perhaps he is probing the markets to see if any here might like to employee him as their own personal swami. I think that will prove futile since most of us here are too cheep and are only good for tossing out our occasional 2 cents. So I really don’t think anyone’s likely to put bread on his table.

Anon my friend, not that we don’t enjoy the company but why are you here if you don’t agree with Catholic Doctrine and have no intention of considering it further and say you don’t want to debate - even as you do debate? You know we can’t and won’t change it to accommodate you. It’s past trying to convince you since you are sure its all mythology. We are at an empasse here and not much more can be said…

BTW - I could be wrong but I don’t think the principal of Invincible Ignorance comes into play just because a particular Catholic was incompetent in selling you on “The Faith”. You have been exposed to the faith by many different people and still reject it and call it mythology - a mythology that you claims works for some people (padre pio) but stil a mythology that won’t work for you. All I offer at this point is to go pray for St. Pio’s intercession since he seems to be the only Catholic you respect.

Pax,
James

 

[tqualey]

Hi, James,

Well… you’re right … but, I would have just said the dude is still out to lunch… and let it go at that!

There really is no helping those who refuse to accept help. That is primarily why people die in hurricanes - they ignore the weather, they ignore the evacuation plans, they ignore the mandatory evacuation orders, and then they can not get out of their house and drown. (We are in hurricane season (Jun - Nov) and it just seemed like an appropriate analogy.)

God bless

Thanks - glad you enjoyed reading it.

Gauging on past comments I think Anon imagines that he has found a higher and better “way” that is above the mere religion of Christianity. I don’t think he believes that God requires that he be beholding to anything but his own conscience and reason. The problem with his mindset is that it ignores the blatant evidence seen in history of a progressive darkening of intellect anytime reason is separated from faith. By faith I mean an orthodox Christian faith since it is axiomatic to me that truth is not multivalued and therefor there is only one true faith. No other faith on the planet has been as fruitful nor as corrupted by imitators and human tinkerers bent on reforming it to their own liking…

[sign]Temporary Detour Warning[/sign]
My complaint here is that except for occasional serendipity (grace?) I really doubt that form can follow function to produce anything beautiful when a darkened intellect seeks truth in the recesses of its own shadows. Nope, without faith illumining the intellect I’d only expect one would encounter variations of disordered and unnatural functions that are not of the Divine Order. How then could we ever hope to get anything but perverse forms from unnatural function? I don’t know how religious Picasso was when he voyeured into his Analytic Cubism (I am told he was baptised as a child). But I am curious just what was in his heart and mind when he drew his Les Demoiselles works: 5 nude prostitutes blatantly unsentimental, barbaric with mask-like faces devoid of soul and unable to engage their senses - yet able to provoke our natural sense of order to revulsion. I am no expert in art and I know the man lost a young sister at a young age - sorrow, rage, cries for help? Lex orandi, lex credendi - “the law of prayer is the law of belief” - The Church prays as she believes. So too I think that ‘The World cries as she suffers’ and the arts ever since the Reformation having been screaming the loudest . Was Pis Christ a premature demonic cry of victory on earth or a last ditch despairing cry from humanity to get the attention of God to save us from the hell we are creating for ourselves?

Abstract art now completely dominates the hedonistic Western world. It reveals profound estrangement, contradiction and sad testimony to the condition of our Western post-Christian civilization. We must call it as it really is - its not Christian anymore. We remnant Christians can see it all as a cultural cry for salvation from our self made materialistic carnality. I really don’t think any sort of Existentialism is going to do us any good - that was only just one of the many failed experiments of our post-Christian culture that have been tried. Frankly by provoking God I think we are inviting our culture to revisit the persecution of our first century Christian heritage to reseed the planet with a new crop of Christian martyers to regain the soul of humanity. If not that then we may be approaching epoch and it may be Alas Babylon…
[sign]Exit Detour Back to OP[/sign]

Amon has no need for a church or anyone else - except for perhaps a “spiritual advisor” to spot check him. I always wondered about that latter bit - where does one go shopping for one and how would you know who to trust?

If you look behind what he says he really seems to subscribe to a generalized hinduistic framework of belief. Perhaps he is here looking for a virtual swami to give him checkpoints as a safety-check against the possibility that he has gone so far down the road to “master oneself” that he has attained that difficult nirvana of “freedom from his senses”. That suggests that he is at least clever enough to know that its impossible to be objective if one is cut off from reality and has no sensory (name removed by moderator)uts. I’ll extend the benefit of the doubt and take that as a weak admission of fallibility. There’s still hope. But it could all be a self-deceiving ruse to gain self affirmation. Perhaps he is probing the markets to see if any here might like to employee him as their own personal swami. I think that will prove futile since most of us here are too cheep and are only good for tossing out our occasional 2 cents. So I really don’t think anyone’s likely to put bread on his table.

Anon my friend, not that we don’t enjoy the company but why are you here if you don’t agree with Catholic Doctrine and have no intention of considering it further and say you don’t want to debate - even as you do debate? You know we can’t and won’t change it to accommodate you. It’s past trying to convince you since you are sure its all mythology. We are at an empasse here and not much more can be said…

BTW - I could be wrong but I don’t think the principal of Invincible Ignorance comes into play just because a particular Catholic was incompetent in selling you on “The Faith”. You have been exposed to the faith by many different people and still reject it and call it mythology - a mythology that you claims works for some people (padre pio) but stil a mythology that won’t work for you. All I offer at this point is to go pray for St. Pio’s intercession since he seems to be the only Catholic you respect.

Pax,
James