Outside the Church there is no salvation

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Mike
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        First of all Mike, as I previously posted, ALL men are born under the wrath of God, BECAUSE of Adam's sin. This is called original sin. This is why it is urgent to have infants baptized. Unless men find a remedy for their sin, they cannot obtain eternal life with God,  but will perish and the wrath of God abides upon them. John 3:16-17

         You ask about the little boy in Africa who never received the gospel? Will he perish? The question should be, is that little boy declared a sinner before God just as much as a GROWN heathen? Or even a heathen here in the United States? Of course, because of Adam's sin being passed on to his posterity. All men,  until they come to the faith of Jesus Christ are BY NATURE sinners and under the wrath of God. Eph 2:1 thru 5

          You ask about the Protestants who refuse the Eucharist. Not to many do that I know of. But if they do WILLFULLY, they are guilty of the body and blood of Jesus. For our Lord said "DO THIS in remembrance of me." There aren't to many absent minded Protestant Christians concerning the Eucharist that I know of.

             You ask if the Eucharist is necessary? Is repentance and baptism necessary for the remission of sins. What do you say about those two sacraments? I would say that you agree they are. Well, the Eucharist is ALSO a sacrament of grace as well and grants the Christians forgiveness of sins. And not only that, but when we receive the Eucharist we are receiving the very flesh and blood of Christ within us as well. Jesus said UNLESS you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood, you have NO LIFE within you. Do you believe the words of our Lord Mike? That's what he said. The early fathers used to say that the Eucharist was the medicine for our souls.

               I urge you to attend mass as often as you can, so that you receive remission of your sins and your soul may be nourished by the precious flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.
 
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mike182d:
on?

To claim that people of other religions, that deny the Eucharist, can attain salvation is to claim that the Eucharist - or all the sacraments for that matter - is not necessary, but suggestions that improve your chances of getting into heaven and that is a blatant contradiction of Scripture and Catholic theology over the 1950 years before Vatican II.
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What was the explanation before Vatican II? Thats how I’ve always understood the Sacramanents to be beneficial to us.
 
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mike182d:
This is the million dollar question though: who are the people, who through no fault of their own do not know the Word but follow a sincere path to a God of their understanding?

.
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The Catechism teaches that this question is NOT MINE TO ANSWER…and I am so grateful for that. Could you imagine how tough it would be for me or you to have to make that decision? Are you not THRILLED that all we have to know is that salvation is possible and the rest is up to the Lord? I am, because I know how I can mess things up, deciding who and what and where of theology. I just try to love Jesus, fullfill my earthly obligations and let my Church guide me.

👍
 
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FuzzyBunny116:
What was the explanation before Vatican II? Thats how I’ve always understood the Sacramanents to be beneficial to us.
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That is not what this section of the Catechism teaches when it comes to salvation being possible for those outside the Church.

THANK HEAVENS:D
 
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thessalonian:
Why do we need to know who is going to heaven. Is’nt God the judge. I don’t think he gave us the words of John 6 asd a checkbox. Cornelius in Acts 10 is said to be “a righteous and God-fearing man” BEFORE Peter comes to him with the fullness of the Gospel. Do righteous and God fearing men go to hell? Jesus tells the apostles that “the one who knew (and behaved badly) will be treated with the unbeliever, but to the one who did not know, he will recieve but few lashes.”. Luke 12 around v. 48.

Now if a Protestant deny’s the Eucharist, knowing in his heart that it is true (we cannot judge hearts) he is damned to hell. God is the judge of that. Yet if his denial is not culpable (very difficult to judge) he MAY be saved. Only God knows. John 6 does say “unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you shall not have life within you”. These words spoken by the savior himself could not be rejected for those who heard them from his eternal mouth. But there were many who were not there. To them we can make no judgement. The word brings responsibility. But the most responsible in searching for God may not hear these words or may not be able to understand them. God is the judge of them. Not us. He is not limited by his sacraments.

Blessings
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NOW that’s following the CCC!
 
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piety101:
First of all Mike, as I previously posted, ALL men are born under the wrath of God, BECAUSE of Adam’s sin. This is called original sin. This is why it is urgent to have infants baptized. Unless men find a remedy for their sin, they cannot obtain eternal life with God, but will perish and the wrath of God abides upon them. John 3:16-17
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Agreed.
You ask about the little boy in Africa who never received the gospel? Will he perish? The question should be, is that little boy declared a sinner before God just as much as a GROWN heathen? Or even a heathen here in the United States? Of course, because of Adam’s sin being passed on to his posterity. All men, until they come to the faith of Jesus Christ are BY NATURE sinners and under the wrath of God. Eph 2:1 thru 5
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This is where it gets tricky. The reason why Christ suffered and died for us is because there was no good work that any of us could do to merit our own salvation and redeem our sins.

If our good works were not enough to warrant safe passage into heaven then, on what theological grounds are we to assume they can now?

This seems to be the other extreme of the sola fides discourse with Protestants. The belief that faith alone can save a person is equally wrong as works alone saving a person. It is the Catholic understanding that works done in Christ are what saves a person.

How is this reconcialable with the current teachings on salvation outside the Church?

Now, regarding the young boy, I personally do not feel that he would go to hell, but I cannot make this claim with *any *degree of certainty.
You ask about the Protestants who refuse the Eucharist. Not to many do that I know of. But if they do WILLFULLY, they are guilty of the body and blood of Jesus. For our Lord said “DO THIS in remembrance of me.” There aren’t to many absent minded Protestant Christians concerning the Eucharist that I know of.
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Agreed.
You ask if the Eucharist is necessary? Is repentance and baptism necessary for the remission of sins. What do you say about those two sacraments? I would say that you agree they are. Well, the Eucharist is ALSO a sacrament of grace as well and grants the Christians forgiveness of sins. And not only that, but when we receive the Eucharist we are receiving the very flesh and blood of Christ within us as well. Jesus said UNLESS you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood, you have NO LIFE within you. Do you believe the words of our Lord Mike? That’s what he said. The early fathers used to say that the Eucharist was the medicine for our souls.
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I wholeheartedly believe the words of Jesus Christ regarding the Eucharist, which is why my passion for Him in it has grown. I only ask this question because Christ goes as far as to say that if we do not eat his flesh and drink his blood, that we do not have life within us. Is this a figure of speech, or do those who refuse the Eucharist and those that don’t receive, really not have life within them? If God says that they do not have life within them, how are they to get into heaven? Would God contradict Himself in His judgement?
I urge you to attend mass as often as you can, so that you receive remission of your sins and your soul may be nourished by the precious flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.
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Thank you, kindly. 🙂
 
Mike
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      You are correct. No amount of works can save us. But God's grace and forgiveness can and does. This is the whole point. Just how does God grant us grace and forgiveness?

       Die hard evangelicals cite faith only in Jesus.But they pull out an isolated text such as Acts 16:31 and claim that is all one needs to do. I wholeheartedly agree, we need to show faith, but not faith ALONE. God also grants us grace and forgiveness through repentance, baptism and the Eucharist. His grace is exhibited THROUGH these sacraments. I don't believe I have to show you the scriptures to prove this. So what I'm saying to you is that we receive ALL of God's grace and forgiveness by receiving his MEANS of grace.

         There is a difference between obeying the works of God and trying to pull oneself up by one's human works. Human works, no matter how moral achieve nothing in God's sight, but only DOING the will of God. This is what pleases God and this is how we receive his grace and forgiveness.

           You state I personally do not agree God would send that little African boy to hell. Well, that is very noble, but is that little boy a sinner, under the wrath of God because of original sin? We must not decide matters by what WE THINK, but what God declares. Notice closely the words of St Paul in Ephesians 2:1 thru 5. He said before we were made alive in Christ we were BY NATURE sinners under the wrath of God. There are no exceptions.

                              This issue was so important in the early church that infants were urged to be baptized as soon as possible. Some argued to wait til the eight day, but nevertheless, baptism for infants was considered of great importance.Why? Because original sin had to be remitted or else an infant could go into hell forever.  

                                I can see that you are well into the faith already and that you treasure receiving the Lord at mass. Be strong in the faith that you will not fall. God bless you.
 
"This is where it gets tricky. The reason why Christ suffered and died for us is because there was no good work that any of us could do to merit our own salvation and redeem our sins.

If our good works were not enough to warrant safe passage into heaven then, on what theological grounds are we to assume they can now?"

Why not read the Catechism section again and take some heart in knowing that you do NOT have to be the one to decide who goes to heaven and who does not…all you have to believe is that God can and will find a way for someone outside the Church to find eternal salvation - it is possible. Isn’t that WONDERFUL???Isn’t our Church FABULOUS??? Aren’t you all GRATEFUL that none of the people on this forum are GOD???:dancing:
 
A helpful book on the subject:

Peter M.J. Stravinskas, Salvation Outside the Church? (OSV, 2002).

Happy reading!
 
This issue was so important in the early church that infants were urged to be baptized as soon as possible. Some argued to wait til the eight day, but nevertheless, baptism for infants was considered of great importance.Why? Because original sin had to be remitted or else an infant could go into hell forever.
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About the baptism of infants :

“As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.” (CCC, 1261)
 
That was not always the church’s position on unbaptized infants. Original sin was considered a more serious matter in the times of the early fathers. That’s why the controversy developed.
 
LSK
The early church never taught that salvation was possible outside the church, for within the church is Christ and the sacraments. If one has time to receive Christ and the sacraments, especially baptism, they must do so at once, if they hope to obtain salvation and eternal life. Someone has been feeding you some ecumenical non sense.
 
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piety101:
That was not always the church’s position on unbaptized infants.
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The Church doesn’t change her position. She tells us that it is permissible “to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism”. However, we cannot know that this is the case. Only God knows. For this reason, it is very important to “not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.”
 
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piety101:
LSK

The early church never taught that salvation was possible outside the church, for within the church is Christ and the sacraments. If one has time to receive Christ and the sacraments, especially baptism, they must do so at once, if they hope to obtain salvation and eternal life. Someone has been feeding you some ecumenical non sense.
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If it were true that the Church has always taught that the unbaptized went to hell, then how come they have celebrated he feast of the Holy Innocents all the way back to the 6th Century. These were the children killed by Herod in order to attempt to kill the Messiah. They were neither baptized nor circumcised.

I look forward to your answer.
 
The church has always taught that all men and women born into this world are stained with original sin. Original sin can ONLY be removed by the grace of God through baptism. This is why the necessity of baptism was encouraged in the first place. The sacrament of baptism for infants goes back to the apostles themselves. Whether you accept this or not, does not change the fact of both original sin and the necessity of baptism.
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                           Concerning par 1261 of the CC, this is a contradiction of the need to be baptized to begin with. If infants die without baptism, they die with and in original sin. That is simply a fact which no amount of twisting can change. 

                             I once heard from my mother the church once taught that un baptized babies who die in infancy, went to limbus, whatever that is? But that to is mere conjecture. John Calvin who was born and raised a Catholic,  once said hell is lined with the souls of unbaptized infants. Talk about a cold guy. 

                              The truth of the matter is, is that only baptism can remove the stain of original sin. If not, then millions of parents are baptizing their babies for nothing.
 
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piety101:
The church has always taught that all men and women born into this world are stained with original sin. Original sin can ONLY be removed by the grace of God through baptism. …
The truth of the matter is, is that only baptism can remove the stain of original sin.
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Then every one from Adam until the time of Jesus are stuck with their original sin, as none of them were baptized.
 
all this can be summed up in one question…

What is the Church?

Answer: body of christ (those that acknowledge and accept jesus christ as their lord and savior)

End Line…
 
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