Outside the Church there is no salvation

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piety101:
If one can be saved outside the church , then what purpose does faith, repentance, baptism and the Eucharist give, if not to offer the forgiveness of sins? This is the purpose of the sacraments. That through these sacraments recipients can receive God’s grace and be forgiven of their sins.

But even more importantly can the heathen who worship idols and false Gods be allowed into heaven out of ignorance? My goodness, the martyred saints of the first three centuries would roll over in their graves if they knew Nero of Rome and Domitian of Rome could also gain salvation, even though they were woefully ignorant of Christ.
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They were not ignorant of Christ, they willfully rejected Him. Then they murdered those who followed Him. That is not what is being addressed here, nor is it what is being addressed in the CCC.
 
"This is from Pius IX’s Encyclical Quanto Conficiam Moerore (better rely on secure sources)
7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. "

Thank you, Barsap, for this wonderful reference.
 
To all
Jesus Christ plainly said unless one is born of water and the spirit he shall NOT enter the kingdom of God. Is Jesus Christ also a heretic as you accuse me, when I say there is no salvation outside of Christ and the church? The modern church has blinded you into thinking there is another possibility, but this is heresy, as proved from the written testimony of the church fathers and the very words of Christ himself. What will you say to Jesus someday when you have told others that Christ did not mean what he said?
 
When I first heard this phrase, “Outside the Church, there is no Salvation”, I cringed. But you know, after being a new Catholic, all the learning, reading, discovering, I’m not so sure now that this is such a wrong statement. I think when the early Church Fathers said it, they meant, outside the body of believers, which was only the Catholic Church of course, that there was no salvation. If you were not a part of the body, believing in Christ Jesus, the Messiah, then there was, and today IS no salvation. Plain and simple. I do know though, that there are many believers in Christ, in varying churches, Protestant, etc., who are true Christians. They just don’t know or believe in the fullness of the First Catholic Church. And can you blame them? They are products of the sick and twisted “Reformation”. I was as well.
 
I agree with the title of this thread if you see Christ’s church as the collective body of Christ following lovers of God’s word - if you are saying only the RCC are saved then you would be wrong.
 
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sparkle:
I do know though, that there are many believers in Christ, in varying churches, Protestant, etc., who are true Christians. They just don’t know or believe in the fullness of the First Catholic Church. And can you blame them? They are products of the sick and twisted “Reformation”. I was as well.
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That is why we all need a greater zeal for evangelization and not more indifferentism.
 
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piety101:
To all

Jesus Christ plainly said unless one is born of water and the spirit he shall NOT enter the kingdom of God. Is Jesus Christ also a heretic as you accuse me, when I say there is no salvation outside of Christ and the church? The modern church has blinded you into thinking there is another possibility, but this is heresy, as proved from the written testimony of the church fathers and the very words of Christ himself.
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I would like to remind you that it was you who called a poster a heretic, specifically LSK. It is a fact that Fr. Feeney was ex-communicated for heresy by the Holy Father for promoting something that sounds exactly like what you have been saying. I asked once if you there was a difference between what you are saying and Feeney’s heresy and did not get a comment. I would never presume that you subscribe to his heretical interpretation of EENS.

In any case, if you wish to take what Jesus said to Nicodemus out of its context, interpret it for yourself apart from Magesterial teaching, then call the Church, Christ’s bride, as the being wrong, there are 20,000 other denominations that do the same thing, so go right ahead. As for me I will stick with the Church Jesus founded and the Holy Spirit leads today, even if I do not always agree and understand.
 
Let me ask you this:

1.Do you believe baptism is FOR the remission of sins? Acts 2:38, 22:16
  1. Do you believe anyone who denies the Eucharist as the flesh and blood of Christ has eternal life?
  2. Do you believe anyone who believes in once saved always saved and yet lives a carnal life of sin will really go to heaven?
  3. Do you believe all Buddhists and Muslims will go to heaven anyway, even though they reject Christ as their Lord and Savior in their religion?
5.Why do you suppose missionaries are out on the mission fields? What is their ultimate goal?
  1. Are all men and women born in sin at birth? How can that sin be be forgiven, if not by baptism? Does God excuse a man or woman of sin because they chose not to be baptized? Or are even ignorant of it? John 3:3-5
7.Why did Christ come to earth anyway? What was his goal? Was it not to save sinners? If so, what does he save them from? And if men can be saved apart from Christ, then it wasn’t really necessary after all for Christ to have died for us to begin with, now was it?
 
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marty1818:
Salvation is not possible unless you go through Jesus. This can be found in John 14:6:
Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” One must obtain salvation through Jesus. At the same time, every person has been given enough grace by God in order to get to heaven, but they can reject God, which would result in no salvation. It is also possible for those who do not explicitly know Jesus, to get to heaven. God can do things unknown to us in order to save souls.

matt
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Exactly, and Who is Jesus? Who is the Church? (Think Eph 5:23-33)
 
And, finally, what does the Holy Mother Church teach us through the Catechism?
 
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fix:
It may be possible, but it seems in recent times too many have taken such things to mean that indifferentism is licit. The zeal for evangelization has been lost too often because we over emphasize that it may be possible for those outside the visible Church to be saved with the same certainty of a Catholic dying in a state of grace.
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Agreed. The fact that God’s mercy is infinite does not mean that we can all believe “what we want.” It must NEVER be a way of justifying behaviors and beliefs that are actually self-serving, rather than principled.

Peace.
John
 
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piety101:
Let me ask you this:

1.Do you believe baptism is FOR the remission of sins? Acts 2:38, 22:16
  1. Do you believe anyone who denies the Eucharist as the flesh and blood of Christ has eternal life?
  2. Do you believe anyone who believes in once saved always saved and yet lives a carnal life of sin will really go to heaven?
  3. Do you believe all Buddhists and Muslims will go to heaven anyway, even though they reject Christ as their Lord and Savior in their religion?
5.Why do you suppose missionaries are out on the mission fields? What is their ultimate goal?
  1. Are all men and women born in sin at birth? How can that sin be be forgiven, if not by baptism? Does God excuse a man or woman of sin because they chose not to be baptized? Or are even ignorant of it? John 3:3-5
7.Why did Christ come to earth anyway? What was his goal? Was it not to save sinners? If so, what does he save them from? And if men can be saved apart from Christ, then it wasn’t really necessary after all for Christ to have died for us to begin with, now was it?
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I asked one question and received no answer. But rather 15 related but different questions. I am the first to admit that I am not a better theologian than the Pope and the all the Cardinals and Bishops. But in fairness, I will answer th first question, as one is all I asked. Yes, I believe in baptism for the remission of sin
 
What is important to remember is that being a member of the Catholic Church requires us to accept what is taught by the Church. We do not rely solely upon the Holy Scripture. We rely, also, upon Tradition. To call people who are relying upon what is being taught by those in proper authority heretics merely adds to their grace. To be persecuted for being a faithful daughter of the Church is a great honor.

Having said that, I am also glad that Piety was suspended. There is much to be said for following the rules and practicing the virtue of obedience. Let us all keep Piety in our prayers and hope that the Grace of a Loving God will wash over him.
 
The Catholic Church states that even if you are not in the catholic church you will have eternal salvation. But, not all can have eternal salvation.
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337 -CCC #847 - Lumen Gentium #16
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John Donlan:
I was in a Catholic chat room the other day, and the administrator of that room claimed that those people who did not know Jesus Christ – could not attain salvation. I quoted her the section (paragraph #847) in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church which says that salvation IS possible for people who do not know Jesus Christ. She responded by stating that many passages in the CCC are ‘gray areas’ that need proper interpretation. Am I wrong in taking para. #847 at it’s face value…or is there a different meaning than what is written there? (see below)

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
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What about the thief on the cross and Abraham and Moses and Elijah and David etc?
 
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sonseeker:
What about the thief on the cross and Abraham and Moses and Elijah and David etc?
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Bill,
What about them? Are you saying that they’re not saved? Are you saying that they are saved, but appart from Jesus? I don’t quite follow…

Peace,
RyanL
 
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RyanL:
Bill,
What about them? Are you saying that they’re not saved? Are you saying that they are saved, but appart from Jesus? I don’t quite follow…

Peace,
RyanL
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Ryan, James White has asked for you by name on his blog to call into his show tonight and back up the things that you have said about him.

Today 6/23/05 7p.m. edt. 877-753-3341

I’ll be listening for you.
 
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sonseeker:
Ryan, James White has asked for you by name on his blog to call into his show tonight and back up the things that you have said about him.

Today 6/23/05 7p.m. edt. 877-753-3341

I’ll be listening for you.
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Yeah…I read it. It kinda’ feels like being called out by Jack Chick. If I’m not with my wife in the delivery room (which is a distinct possibility), I may indeed give him a call. I’ll probably listen (at least for a bit), but if he’s too freaky-zealous I’m not going to “poke a rabid dog with a stick”. That’s just plain silly, and I’m not going to present an occasion of sin for either of us. If he doesn’t act like a humble servant of God, I see no reason why I should encite him into acting even more haughty or beligerant. If his debates are any indication of how he conducts himself on the radio, my expectations are pretty low. If he has learned how to respect people, however, and treats others with Christian charity and humility, I see no reason why I *shouldn’t *call in. 👍
Here’s some reading material for ya’:
catholicsource.net/articles/wh-sola-err.htm
ekkcom.com/white6.htm
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ105.HTM
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0104fea4.asp
I think the only way I’m going to be able to hear him is through the web-cast - is this correct? My connection has been giving me problems lately, so if there’s a more reliable way to get his program I would like to know.

That said, you didn’t answer my question.
Peace,
RyanL
 
viktor aleksndr:
The Catholic Church states that even if you are not in the catholic church you will have eternal salvation. But, not all can have eternal salvation.
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Thank you so much for affirming the Catechism!🙂

Ryan L. - here’s to a happy, healthy, baby:thumbsup: .
 
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RyanL:
Bill,
What about them? Are you saying that they’re not saved? Are you saying that they are saved, but appart from Jesus? I don’t quite follow…

Peace,
RyanL
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I am saying that they are saved.

I hope all goes well with your wife and her delivery. What a joy!
 
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