Outside the Church there is no salvation"

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The only reason it was “pastorally” changed was to jump on the diversity bandwagon in the post-war years – in particular with Jews after the atrocity of Nazi Germany (but there the Church has gone particularly and uncharitably overboard – we can not even try to convert Jews – it is “antisemitic” – even though Jesus and all the Apostles were ethnically Jews and it was the Jewish people they initially tried to convert).

The best way to approach this is the way the Church has always approached it. We don’t know the infinite Mercy of God, and what will happen to any particular person, but we do know what Christ said and unambiguously taught!
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
I don’t understand Protestants despite being in a relationship/ married to one for over three decades and I don’t think I ever will understand why they stay separated brethren.
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I do have to say, while being on here for the last few years and enjoying your posts I’ve always been intrigued by this and some of the ways you can speak of people who aren’t Catholic while being married to one.

No offense intended (I don’t think you would be…but just in case), it’s just an observation that (like I said) just find really intriguing.
 
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Sorry, but I found them baffling. I always thought his mother should have just stayed Catholic. One day when nobody was in the house but me and her, she told me her Catholic father wasn’t happy when she decided to be Presbyterian instead. Many years later after she died, I mentioned that to my husband. It was apparently complete news to him, he’d never heard her say anything about it. I think there was a lot of stuff just not talked about in that family.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
and I don’t think I ever will understand why they stay separated brethren.
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Some people think it doesn’t matter, I think. And some felt they were driven out, like my grandmother. She married a Baptist, but continued to faithfully go to Mass until the day the priest gave a very pointed sermon about how terrible you were if you married outside the faith. Small town, rural area, everyone knew exactly who he was pointing at. She went home crying, and never went back. My father, a young boy at the time, saw his mother crying because of a priest. You can guess how he felt about the Catholic church. I didn’t enter until after he died.
 
People are not educated enough to deal with life for example people who feel bad against a priest should not hold it against a organization that want to teach people about God !
 
I’ve met a number of people who had really bad experiences with priests, but they all either abandoned religion entirely claiming it was phony and run by power-hungry corrupt mean people, or else went the “spiritual but not religious” route where they either just talked to God at home or turned to Eastern religion or some other philosophy. None of them went over to Protestantism.

I’ve definitely met some people in the “it doesn’t matter” category who choose a church based more on stuff like convenience and fun fellowship/ kid activities. There is one right now on a community forum I frequent, “Hi there, I’ve lived here now a couple years and I’ve decided it’s time for me to choose a church to attend. Recommendations for churches please?” It’s like she’s choosing a daycare or a plumbing contractor.

I think there are a whole lot of people who just keep doing whatever they were taught to do by their parents without giving it much thought. I often wonder if my parents had been Protestants, would that be me.
 
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We’re in about the same boat at my wife’s current parish. I’m pretty well done going there because I never know what we’ll hear about non-Catholics (we had about the same homily as you describe once), parents in general, sports parents, etc… She may decide to move on this summer.
 
It seems to me that many people understand salvation outside of the Church to be more of a probability now days. Which if that is true, it no longer makes the Church necessary, only recommended.
 
This is very simple.

By a valid baptism, people become Christians. Those Christians are baptized Catholic then they are fully part of the Church.

Those who are validly baptized in a Protestant manner are still joined to the body of Christ, to the Church, in an imperfect manner, whether they know/recognize it or not.

That is why I was not re-baptized when I became Catholic. I was already imperfectly joined through my valid, Trinitarian, Church of Christ water baptism. I simply made a profession of Faith that then joined me “perfectly” to the Church.

Here is a handy dandy list:

https://www.colsdioc.org/Portals/0/Departments/DIVW/Valid Baptisms Reference List.pdf
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Sorry, but I found them baffling.
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I totally understand where you’re coming from. I think some of the most powerful things that separate us are more cultural than theological. Permit me a short example from my vantage point. My good friend invited me to a Catholic men’s bible study not so long ago. I really couldn’t wait to go - both to study God’s word with my Catholic brothers, as well as to have some good ecumenical fellowship.

The leader of the group stood up and offered the opening prayer. He said, “Holy Mother…” and went on a prayed a beautiful prayer. Now I’ve read much about and understand the theology underpinning his prayer. And frankly, from a logical standpoint, I don’t have an issue with praying an intercessory prayer to Mary. She leads us, and always points to Christ. I get it.

But I have to tell you - to say it made me uncomfortable is a dramatic understatement. I can’t explain it, and I wish I it could feel normal to me, but I just couldn’t help feeling the way I felt. You guys look at me like I’m crazy - I know. It’s totally normal to you to go to Mary in prayer. But when you spend your whole life doing things a certain way - change - even if you understand and aren’t opposed to it - is hard.

As I’ve said many times before on this terrific forum, we have much work to do together, but I’m thankful for the ecumenical steps the Catholic Church has made towards we separated brothers and sisters. I know that what we share - our love for our great, sovereign King of Kings - is much, much more powerful than what separates us.
 
Indeed. I’m quite thankful for the respectful non-Catholic posters on the forum, such as GKMotley, JharakCarnelian, Wannano, meltzerboy, yourself, and several others whose names aren’t springing to mind right now. I have also met real-life non-Catholics (Orthodox, Protestant, Muslim, Jewish, atheist/agnostic, LDS, Sikh etc) who I was pleased to know and who remind me that there are many good people of different persuasions living in this world. In some cases I can see that when groups of people left the Catholic Church they took with them certain knowledges and strengths, and it pains me that they can’t just bring those gifts back and share them with all of us while we share the Real Presence with them.

If we all make it to Heaven, we will all be as one and no discomfort, so I’m just hoping for that.
 
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I agree with what you said. Baptism is listed as a requirement and other forms of Trinitarian baptism are counted as valid.

How do we resolve the issue of receiving the Eucharist as a requirement as well? I was under the impression that we are also commanded to receive the Eucharist in order to have eternal life. Yet, many Protestant/non-denominational churches do not believe it to be a requirement and those that do offer a communion service don’t necessarily believe it is the actual body and blood of Jesus.
 
Can you expound? Like, as in, are you saying those who are not Catholic are therefore not saved?
 
FOG said:
Yes, but perhaps not what some may think.

The “Church” that offers salvation is not the Holy Catholic Church, but the collective Church which is the Body of Christ.
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Do you accept the branch theory?

Because this sounds very close to it.

As for me, I profess one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, to which all Christians truly baptized are attached in one form or fashion. However, there are those who through no fault of their own are not fully received into full communion with Christ’s Holy Catholic Church; these it is possible to be saved.

While there are many good Christians outside the Catholic Church and it is possible for many Christians to obtain the King’s reward outside of the visible Catholic Church, I do not accept the Episcopal Church, Baptist churches, etc. as being of divine origin.
 
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Crusader13 said:
I was under the impression that we are also commanded to receive the Eucharist in order to have eternal life.
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A person is born, they are validly baptized. They are preparing to make First Communion and they die. Do you believe that person does not have Eternal Life?

A person is born and baptized at a lovely parish Church in Russia in the early 20th century. Then the great persecution begins, priests and bishops and Catholics are slaughtered across the nation. This person lives a life of mercy and love, a humble life, always praying that one day they will again see a Catholic priest. They die at the age of 85, never having been to another Mass, seen another priest, let alone having any of the Sacraments because all of the priests are dead.

Does this person not have eternal life/
 
A more positive way to say this from the perspective of salvation:
All who are saved are part of the Catholic Church.

It’s also helpful to remember that the sacraments are mysteries that reveal God. God comes to meet us in the sacraments, but God is not bound by the sacraments, God gives them to us as the normative way to come to become holy and know him.
 
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TheLittleLady said:
A person is born, they are validly baptized. They are preparing to make First Communion and they die. Do you believe that person does not have Eternal Life?
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I’d say yes. Because they are in the process of making their first Holy Communion. The desire is present. As in those who are seeking baptism but die before it happens.
TheLittleLady said:
Does this person not have eternal life/
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In your second hypothetical case, I would see they have have a much greater chance of being saved because they are praying for then opportunity to attend another mass.

However neither of those hypothetical situations are the same as somebody who is willfully remaining outside of the Catholic Church and has no desire to receive communion or has belief that it is unnecessary or that it is even the actual body and blood of Jesus.

There’s a difference between having never heard the truth and choosing to believe something that is contrary to the truth.
 
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