Outside the "church"

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myfavoritmartin

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The following 3 statements seem rather straight forward in regards to salvation outside the Catholic church, these appear to be Ex Cathedra statements… But I’ve heard and read that the approach is now different, in regards to us (seperated) hate that term brethren. And salvation is no longer impossible.

Wouldn’t this mean that these earlier ex cathedra statements are wrong?

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and teaches, that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but Jews, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire ‘prepared for the devil, and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41)., unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church; also that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is such that the Church’s sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and that fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of piety which play their part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ’s sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Mansi, Concilia, xxxi, 1739; Pope Eugene IV, in the bull, Cantate Domino, 1441).

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely **necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” **(Pope Boniface VIII, in the bull, Unam Sanctam, 1302)

“There is only one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215)
 
Basically they all say - If you find yourself in heaven it will have been through the Catholic Church.

It is the same then and now.
 
In my understanding, the current statement of this dogma includes the possibility that one can be part of the one true (Catholic) Church without being a formal member. For example, an Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, or even a High Church Anglican believes everything necessary for salvation but is in schism, or heresy for historical reasons. These people could be in union through belief, but not membership. This seems fine in theory.

The problem arises for those who do not have access to valid sacraments, especially confession (the Orthodox of course do have access to valid sacraments). For those w/o access to confession, it would seem they need to live a life free of mortal sin, as they know it (so, primarily a natural law definition), or make an act of perfect contrition before death. This being so, it would seem that relatively few people w/o access to sacraments could be saved, although some probably will.

Hope that helps.

God Bless
 
bilop said:
In my understanding, the current statement of this dogma includes the possibility that one can be part of the one true (Catholic) Church without being a formal member. For example, an Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, or even a High Church Anglican believes everything necessary for salvation but is in schism, or heresy for historical reasons. These people could be in union through belief, but not membership. This seems fine in theory.

The problem arises for those who do not have access to valid sacraments, especially confession (the Orthodox of course do have access to valid sacraments). For those w/o access to confession, it would seem they need to live a life free of mortal sin, as they know it (so, primarily a natural law definition), or make an act of perfect contrition before death. This being so, it would seem that relatively few people w/o access to sacraments could be saved, although some probably will.

Hope that helps.

God Bless
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So essentially according to your church, a born and raised LCMS lutheran turned evangelical fundamentalist stands no chance of salvation?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
So essentially according to your church, a born and raised LCMS lutheran turned evangelical fundamentalist stands no chance of salvation?
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I didn’t say that. Also, remember, this is just my interpretation. The Church has been vague (intentionally so I think) on this issue.

I think if this person believed in all the core tenets of the Catholic Church, e.g. Trinity, Incarnation, Resurrection etc. and, before they died, made an act of perfect contrition for their mortal sins (i.e. they are sorry because their sins offended God, not because they fear punishment) they could be saved.

God Bless
 
myfavoritmartin said:
The following 3 statements seem rather straight forward in regards to salvation outside the Catholic church, these appear to be Ex Cathedra statements… But I’ve heard and read that the approach is now different, in regards to us (seperated) hate that term brethren. And salvation is no longer impossible.

Wouldn’t this mean that these earlier ex cathedra statements are wrong?

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and teaches, that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but Jews, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire ‘prepared for the devil, and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41)., unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church; also that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is such that the Church’s sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and that fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of piety which play their part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ’s sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Mansi, Concilia, xxxi, 1739; Pope Eugene IV, in the bull, Cantate Domino, 1441).

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely **necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” **(Pope Boniface VIII, in the bull, Unam Sanctam, 1302)

“There is only one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215)
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Did you happen to copy those from the Evangelical Outreach website? Truth is, there have only been two occasions where an actual ex cathedra statement has been made in the last 2000 years, in 1854 and 1950. What you have posted above are not ex cathedra statements, according to the true definition of the term.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
So essentially according to your church, a born and raised LCMS lutheran turned evangelical fundamentalist stands no chance of salvation?
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If a person believes in the Trinity and has been baptised using water and the Trinitarian formula, they are considered members of the Catholic Church, though imperfectly, and can be saved.
 
This of course does not make the position that their is no salvation “outside the church” any less a Doctrine of the Catholic faith.

Chuck
Pixie_Dust said:
Did you happen to copy those from the Evangelical Outreach website? Truth is, there have only been two occasions where an actual ex cathedra statement has been made in the last 2000 years, in 1854 and 1950. What you have posted above are not ex cathedra statements, according to the true definition of the term.
Click to expand...
 
What’s the big deal? Protestants also believe that outside the Church there is no salvation. So I repeat, what’s the big deal?
 
Pixie_Dust said:
If a person believes in the Trinity and has been baptised using water and the Trinitarian formula, they are considered members of the Catholic Church, though imperfectly, and can be saved.
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Being a protestant I am considered a heretic by canon law!

…furthermore…

I am not subject to the Roman Pontiff!

But I’ve been baptised and believe in the Trinity.

Where does this align?
 
clmowry said:
This of course does not make the position that their is no salvation “outside the church” any less a Doctrine of the Catholic faith.

Chuck
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True, but there is a big misunderstanding of what is meant by “outside the church” and who exactly is “outside” and who is “inside.” Of course, no Fundamentalist wants to hear that they’re really Catholic. 😉
 
VociMike said:
What’s the big deal? Protestants also believe that outside the Church there is no salvation. So I repeat, what’s the big deal?
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How so do we believe this?

What most of us believe is one thing only, outside of Christ there is no salvation.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
How so do we believe this?

What most of us believe is one thing only, outside of Christ there is no salvation.
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You believe that outside the Church there is no salvation. You just define “Church” inadequately. But you do believe it.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
How so do we believe this?

What most of us believe is one thing only, outside of Christ there is no salvation.
Click to expand...
You believe that outside the Church there is no salvation. You just define “Church” inadequately. But you do believe it.
 
Straight from the Catechism

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
 
Pixie_Dust said:
What you have posted above are not ex cathedra statements, according to the true definition of the term.
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Just to make sure we’re all on the same page, what is the true definition of ex cathedra, at least for the purpose of use in this thread. I’m not being a smart-aleck (this time :D)

Peace,
+N
 
HOW DOES THIS>>>
myfavoritmartin said:
The following 3 statements seem rather straight forward in regards to salvation outside the Catholic church, these appear to be Ex Cathedra statements… But I’ve heard and read that the approach is now different, in regards to us (seperated) hate that term brethren. And salvation is no longer impossible.

Wouldn’t this mean that these earlier ex cathedra statements are wrong?

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and teaches, that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but Jews, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire ‘prepared for the devil, and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41)., unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church; also that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is such that the Church’s sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and that fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of piety which play their part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ’s sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Mansi, Concilia, xxxi, 1739; Pope Eugene IV, in the bull, Cantate Domino, 1441).

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely **necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” **(Pope Boniface VIII, in the bull, Unam Sanctam, 1302)

“There is only one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215)
Click to expand...
NOT CONTRADICT THIS>>>>>
flyersfan1088 said:
Straight from the Catechism

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
Click to expand...
 
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