Over-focusing on the externals?

[Chalice]

After reading this forum for a while now and discussing it with my priest, it seems that far too many people are over-focused on what he called “the externals.”

A small number of examples:

If people want to receive Holy Communion during the celebration of the Pauline Mass they shouldn’t be refused if they demand to kneel, but the Church asks that we stand.

Though no document ever required them to be removed, the existance of communion railing dosen’t make a church any “better.”

No one will physically stop us from genuflecting before receiving either, but again, the Church asks that we bow.

If our local bishop asks that we stand after the Agnus Dei, it’s not “better” if we ignore him and choose to kneel. It’s prideful.

The Church demands that the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ be resposed in a tabernacle located in a secure and noble location. The location is not limited to the back/center of the sanctuary, although that most certainly is a prime location.

Both male and females are currently allowed to be altar servers in the Church. If and until this changes, one sex is no “better” than the other at this ministry.

If a woman wants to cover her head at Mass (the Church does not direct this) it shouldn’t be a big deal. Unfortunately some people here seem to think of it as a badge of honor, a visible hair-shirt, or worse, a requirement from the Church.

Yes, the Tridentine Mass when correctly celebrated is indeed gorgeous. So is the Pauline Mass. Both have potential for abuse, as well as for great solemnity.

The Church leaves the physical orientation of the celebrant up to the celebrant. Ad orientum is no better (or worse) than versus populum, at least per Church documents.

I could go on and on and on. While liturgical abuses (and irregularities) are never good, and while it’s nice to make the Mass as solemn as possible (at least to me), we can’t let our focus on externals (or what we personally feel is “best”) divert our attention from what is taking place on the altar of sacrifice.

 

[HumbleObedience]

Yes, many people in this world focus on things that they see with their senses and put undue importance on them. These things symbolise different things to different people, so people, being people, fight over them. But, the real spirituallity of the church goes way beyond the externals. At it’s core the Holy Spirit reigns with love and peace beyond understanding.

 

[Della]

It isn’t a matter of better or best but of sensibilities. I think it a great mistake on the part of many bishops to throw out, without a word of explanation, gestures that mean so much to the local parishes. If a parish prefers to kneel during the Agnus Dei, he ought to make an exception instead of imposing what does not need to be imposed upon people, creating unnecessary hard feelings and dissent over what you and others think mere externals, but which are very important to the people.

If the externals were of no importance, we wouldn’t have any documents addressing any of these things, and each parish would have to “wing it”. I think it much better if the whole of a country or region be on the same page, not this bishop wants this and that bishop wants that. What about the PEOPLE who have to obey? I thought we were past all that “pray, pay, and obey” mentality, but only if the bishop decides to treat his people like grown ups who know their own minds? Is that it? How sad, how unwise, and how unnecessary!

 

[HumbleObedience]

We are called to be meek and humble servents of our church and it’s hierarchy. If we rebel, then we are protestants. We are to obey, even when we disagree. There’s no meaning in obedience if it’s always something we want. And, obedience in and of it’s self has great virtue and spiritual value.

 

[HumbleObedience]

For instance, I prefer to kneel. It seems to instill in me more sense of reverence. But, if I’m visiting a church that does less kneeling, I sublimate my preferences in deference to the wishes of the priest and bishop there. Also, I defer my wishes to the local custom out of respect for that parish. I can always kneel at home during prayer, or at adoration, before daily Mass, or after.

 

[Chalice]

Della:

It isn’t a matter of better or best but of sensibilities. I think it a great mistake on the part of many bishops to throw out, without a word of explanation, gestures that mean so much to the local parishes. If a parish prefers to kneel during the Agnus Dei, he ought to make an exception instead of imposing what does not need to be imposed upon people, creating unnecessary hard feelings and dissent over what you and others think mere externals, but which are very important to the people.

If the externals were of no importance, we wouldn’t have any documents addressing any of these things, and each parish would have to “wing it”. I think it much better if the whole of a country or region be on the same page, not this bishop wants this and that bishop wants that. What about the PEOPLE who have to obey? I thought we were past all that “pray, pay, and obey” mentality, but only if the bishop decides to treat his people like grown ups who know their own minds? Is that it? How sad, how unwise, and how unnecessary!

Obeying the Church, even if it bothers us is good for us. It can be extremely humbling. It’s an opportunity to offer something up to God.

We are expected to obey the Church. I’m not sure what knowing one’s own mind really means. but it sounds like placing our own desires ahead of what the Church directs.

 

[Brendan]

Chalice:

Both male and females are currently allowed to be altar servers in the Church. If and until this changes, one sex is no “better” than the other at this ministry.

No, but having all male altar service promotes Vocations. So while both sexes may perform this service equally well, it does not follow that the Church benefits equally well from their service.

 

[Chalice]

HumbleObedience:

For instance, I prefer to kneel. It seems to instill in me more sense of reverence. But, if I’m visiting a church that does less kneeling, I sublimate my preferences in deference to the wishes of the priest and bishop there. Also, I defer my wishes to the local custom out of respect for that parish. I can always kneel at home during prayer, or at adoration, before daily Mass, or after.

That’s interesting. I couldn’t care less about my own opinion, or those of others in the congregation – I only care what the Church directs.

Before the thread goes away from the issue, please let me re-state. It becomes a real problem when the focus of the Mass becomes head-coverings, female altar servers and kneeling to receive at the cost of focusing on the Sacrifice.

 

[Chalice]

Brendan:

No, but having all male altar service promotes Vocations. So while both sexes may perform this service equally well, it does not follow that the Church benefits equally well from their service.

Maybe or maybe not. The point is, both are allowed.

While I would personally be grateful to see well-formed armies of young men serving at the altar, I don’t like to come in contact with those who do nothing yet carp at the “evils” of female altar servers.

 

[HumbleObedience]

I think we should try and focus on Christ while at church and not the externals. There will always be externals, but it’s not our place to judge, esp on something such as an item of clothing, or who is helping Father. Leave judging to God, and thank him for the miracle of his gifts to us.

 

[Chalice]

HumbleObedience:

I think we should try and focus on Christ while at church and not the externals. There will always be externals, but it’s not our place to judge, esp on something such as an item of clothing, or who is helping Father. Leave judging to God, and thank him for the miracle of his gifts to us.

Well said. There is nothing wrong with working outside of Mass to see some of the solemnity brought back into the Mass, but that cannot become our primary focus.

 

[Della]

HumbleObedience:

We are called to be meek and humble servents of our church and it’s hierarchy. If we rebel, then we are protestants. We are to obey, even when we disagree. There’s no meaning in obedience if it’s always something we want. And, obedience in and of it’s self has great virtue and spiritual value.

That’s true, but the bishop ought to be helping his people not imposing arbitrary demands on them. Paul said, “Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged” (Col. 3:21). People not wanting to stand during the Agnus Dei at the whim of their bishop (there ought to be a good reason for him to impose this, IMHO) is hardly a matter of mortal sin, but it will provoke people and discourage them when it is done for no good reason. We aren’t robots, you know. The heterodox have been shoving their agenda down the throats of the orthodox for 40 years. It’s time we stop letting them do it out of a misplaced sense of “obedience.”

We can, and should, petition the USCCB to change the rubrics so that every parish in the country will be doing exactly the same gestures at every Mass in every parish. We aren’t voiceless nor should be we. We are talking about mere disciplines here, not dogmas or doctrines. If my bishop wanted to impose standing during the Agnus Dei on my parish for no good reason (frankly I can’t think of a good reason apart from those listed in the GIRM), I’d protest in the strongest terms through a petition signed by all those who think like me, because it is my right as one of the faithful to do so.

 

[Didi]

I agree that it is good for us to be obedient, as long as what is being done doesn’t affect the consecration or the reverence for Jesus in the Eucharist.

If the music isn’t quite what we expected, maybe it will touch the heart of someone who hasn’t been to Church in a long time.

If the lady wearing the veil bothers us, maybe we don’t know the story behind her reverence.

If girl altar servers or EMHCs are not our cup of tea, maybe these people who are serving will go on to be great leaders and teachers of our faith.

We tend to see things from our own point of view. Sometimes moving around a bit, or thinking about it from a different persepctive will help us to make these things less of a distraction during the Mass.

I find if I’m distracted by something, I turn my gaze or close my eyes, or look up at the crucifix.

We can also offer up our frustrations and distractions to Our Lord during Mass, after all it is a sacrificial meal!

 

[HumbleObedience]

Does seeing someone with a headcovering bother some people? I didn’t know that! I’ve never heard anything of the sort. I have heard our priest discussed uncharitably before, which pains my heart to no end. No one has any respect any more it’s so sad. Even devout people are disrespectful of our priests and bishops. Why, I’ve even heard some bad talk about our former Holy Father, who was probably a saint! This was from very conservative Catholics! These times we live in are very difficult.

 

[Chalice]

Della:

That’s true, but the bishop ought to be helping his people not imposing arbitrary demands on them. Paul said, “Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged” (Col. 3:21). People not wanting to stand during the Agnus Dei at the whim of their bishop (there ought to be a good reason for him to impose this, IMHO) is hardly a matter of mortal sin, but it will provoke people and discourage them when it is done for no good reason. We aren’t robots, you know. The heterodox have been shoving their agenda down the throats of the orthodox for 40 years. It’s time we stop letting them do it out of a misplaced sense of “obedience.”

We can, and should, **petition the USCCB to change the rubrics so that every parish in the country will be doing exactly the same gestures at every Mass in every parish. ** We aren’t voiceless nor should be we. We are talking about mere disciplines here, not dogmas or doctrines. If my bishop wanted to impose standing during the Agnus Dei on my parish for no good reason (frankly I can’t think of a good reason apart from those listed in the GIRM), I’d protest in the strongest terms through a petition signed by all those who think like me, because it is my right as one of the faithful to do so.

1.) You may find them “arbitrary”, but I cannot because they come from the Church.

2.) Rubrics are already in place and eveyone should be following them.

3.) Why would you protest if your bishop required everyone to stand after the AD? Because you feel kneeling is better? That’s not orthodox…

 

[Chalice]

Didi:

I agree that it is good for us to be obedient, as long as what is being done doesn’t affect the consecration or the reverence for Jesus in the Eucharist.

If the music isn’t quite what we expected, maybe it will touch the heart of someone who hasn’t been to Church in a long time.

If the lady wearing the veil bothers us, maybe we don’t know the story behind her reverence.

If girl altar servers or EMHCs are not our cup of tea, maybe these people who are serving will go on to be great leaders and teachers of our faith.

We tend to see things from our own point of view. Sometimes moving around a bit, or thinking about it from a different persepctive will help us to make these things less of a distraction during the Mass.

I find if I’m distracted by something, I turn my gaze or close my eyes, or look up at the crucifix.

We can also offer up our frustrations and distractions to Our Lord during Mass, after all it is a sacrificial meal!

That’s pretty good advice.

 

[Chalice]

HumbleObedience:

Does seeing someone with a headcovering bother some people? I didn’t know that! I’ve never heard anything of the sort. I have heard our priest discussed uncharitably before, which pains my heart to no end. No one has any respect any more it’s so sad. Even devout people are disrespectful of our priests and bishops. Why, I’ve even heard some bad talk about our former Holy Father, who was probably a saint! This was from very conservative Catholics! These times we live in are very difficult.

Not that I know of.

However some people seem to somehow equate it to “orthodoxy” and their focus become their head coverings, not the Sacrifice.

 

[HumbleObedience]

Orthodoxy for it’s own sake probably is not of God. The Pharisees were like that. But, I’m sure that for some people it’s just a legitamate expression of their love of the Lord. But, it’s not legitamate if they are in disobedience while pursuing it.

 

[Chalice]

HumbleObedience:

Orthodoxy for it’s own sake probably is not of God. The Pharisees were like that. But, I’m sure that for some people it’s just a legitamate expression of their love of the Lord. But, it’s not legitamate if they are in disobedience while pursuing it.

True.

I find it fascinating that someone would (for example) insist on kneeling to receive Holy Communion (even though the Church directs we stand) while also spewing venom at those who hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer and/or assume the orans position – two things the Church has not condemmed.

It surely does make one wonder…

 

[netmilsmom]

Chalice:

True.

I find it fascinating that someone would (for example) insist on kneeling to receive Holy Communion (even though the Church directs we stand) while also spewing venom at those who hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer and/or assume the orans position – two things the Church has not condemmed.

It surely does make one wonder…

“The Church” has not condemned kneeling for communion.
Some American Bishops have. This is the reason why they must not deny anyone communion for kneeling, but should council them.
The same with the Orans position. This is something that you should check with your Diocese before deciding if it is correct.

Hand holding is a different situation. It is a posture that is being disallowed communally, as part of the liturgy for the majority of the Diocese in the US.

Here is an example from the St. Louis Diocese…
“Is holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer allowed or encouraged? No. The community’s corporate act of receiving communion is the primary symbol of unity with Christ and the Church. The Sign of Peace immediately preceding the reception of Communion is a liturgical rite that should not be minimized or duplicated in any way. A separate but related issue is the situation of individuals who for personal reasons feel uncomfortable with the practice of holding hands. In this case those individuals feel increasingly excluded from the worshipping community. Sensitivity is needed to include all and draw all to the true symbol of unity.”

Check with your Diocese. If you do this, you may be openly disobedient to your Bishop.