Over-focusing on the externals?

[Della]

HumbleObedience:

Orthodoxy for it’s own sake probably is not of God. The Pharisees were like that. But, I’m sure that for some people it’s just a legitamate expression of their love of the Lord. But, it’s not legitamate if they are in disobedience while pursuing it.

Well, I don’t think sticking to the rubrics of the Mass is being Pharisaical, but in any case, obedience to our superiors is limited. Only God can demand absolute obedience, any other type offered has to be out of knowledge and consent, not out of any artificial sense of guilt.

 

[Freeway4321]

I’m sure many people do. But good liturgy\mass incorporates all of our senses, so I don’t think someone who wants good liturgy\mass can have this problem.

You’ll always have those who are overly concerned with the external elements to the Mass. And that’s a sign of a lack of foundation in the Catholic faith, and of a lack of being a christian.

If we are not grounded in Jesus Christ, and his love, mercy, judgement and everything that is God that we can comprehend… then it’s like a little kid wondering from their parents. They will get lost, confused, and a number of other things will happen. So those who have a disordered want for the external elements of the mass should probably stay close to home until thier faith matures.

And this is a problem with not just the Mass and things revolving around the mass but many things; spiritual.

 

[Chalice]

“The Church” has not condemned kneeling for communion.
Some American Bishops have. This is the reason why they must not deny anyone communion for kneeling, but should council them.
The same with the Orans position. This is something that you should check with your Diocese before deciding if it is correct.

Hand holding is a different situation. It is a posture that is being disallowed communally, as part of the liturgy for the majority of the Diocese in the US.

Here is an example from the St. Louis Diocese…
“Is holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer allowed or encouraged? No. The community’s corporate act of receiving communion is the primary symbol of unity with Christ and the Church. The Sign of Peace immediately preceding the reception of Communion is a liturgical rite that should not be minimized or duplicated in any way. A separate but related issue is the situation of individuals who for personal reasons feel uncomfortable with the practice of holding hands. In this case those individuals feel increasingly excluded from the worshipping community. Sensitivity is needed to include all and draw all to the true symbol of unity.”

Check with your Diocese. If you do this, you may be openly disobedient to your Bishop.
[/quote]

No.

"GIRM 160. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

Show me an official Church document that condemns holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer or assuming the oran’s position. None exist.

This is another huge problem. Certain people insisting the Church has condemned something when She has not AND ignoring what the Church actually directs (see GIRM #160 above) because they believe they know better.

 

[Chalice]

Della:

Well, I don’t think sticking to the rubrics of the Mass is being Pharisaical, but in any case, obedience to our superiors is limited. Only God can demand absolute obedience, any other type offered has to be out of knowledge and consent, not out of any artificial sense of guilt.

That smacks strongly of placing our own whims and desires ahead of God. Bad form.

 

[m134e5]

Chalice:

No.

"GIRM 160. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

If this is to be taken seriously, it would be nice to actually hear some proper catechesis on the matter. I have yet to hear it.

 

[Chalice]

m134e5:

If this is to be taken seriously, it would be nice to actually hear some proper catechesis on the matter. I have yet to hear it.

So very true!

 

[Freeway4321]

“The Church” has not condemned kneeling for communion.
Some American Bishops have. This is the reason why they must not deny anyone communion for kneeling, but should council them.

[/quote]

This is one of the more pathetic things going on in the church. As I read some of Michael Davies books and as I research his footnotes I have found some disturbing things.

Archbishop Chaput (Ya know the guy everyone loves because of his supposed orthodox stance - I have (had?) alot of respect for him too)

*February 5, 2003 edition of the Denver Catholic Register *

"In the revised General Instruction on the Roman Missal, the Holy See indicated that uniformity of gesture should be respected at this time in a specific way. The specific gesture was to be determined by the appropriate conference of bishops, and this has been done in the United States.

The bishops have determined that we should not kneel or genuflect. We receive Communion standing. Before receiving, we bow our head in adoration, and we say “Amen” and receive the body of Christ on the tongue or in the hand.

This will be new for many of the faithful, because the formal act of reverence was not widely promoted in the past. This act helps us avoid nonchalance in receiving holy Communion. It allows us to acknowledge what we are about to do: take under the form of bread and wine the resurrected body and blood of Christ. If we have become distracted during the procession, the gesture helps us to recollect ourselves.

While the act of reverence will be new for some, it may be “different” for others. In the past, we may have made a sign of the cross, a profound bow (one from the waist), genuflected or simply knelt as our act of adoration. The Church now asks us asks to submit our personal preference to her wisdom.

Some of us will need time to remember to do this. Others may not want to change the gesture of reverence they’ve been using. In all cases, we need to defer to the Church. Just as I ask that kneeling be preserved within the rubrics where indicated (such as during the entire Eucharistic Prayer), I ask that the act of reverence approved by the U.S. bishops — the bowing of the head — be embraced and maintained. This act of reverence, which should also be done before receiving the precious blood, unites us with the whole community of faith."

archden.org/dcr/news.php?e=10&s=2&a=149

In the words of Mr. Davies:

“I have rarely seen so many non sequiturs in so short a space. If standing helps us avoid nonchalance in receiving Holy Communion, does kneeling promote nonchalance? If standing allows us to acknowledge that we are about to take under the form of bread and wine the resurrected Body and Blood of Christ, does kneeling preclude such acknowledgment?”

 

[netmilsmom]

Chalice:

No.

"GIRM 160. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

Show me an official Church document that condemns holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer or assuming the oran’s position. None exist.

This is another huge problem. Certain people insisting the Church has condemned something when She has not AND ignoring what the Church actually directs (see GIRM #160 above) because they believe they know better.

And where did your copy of the GIRM come from?
The USCCB, right?
Unless you are living at the Vatican, your Bishop is who you are under. The Vatcian has defaulted to the Bishops of each country for setting the norms.
You have the same misconception that many people have here. If it is not stated, we can do it. In the case of hand holding, if you are in the St. Louis (Or Charlotte or Cleveland) diocese as stated above, you are disobeying your Bishop.
That document is from the offical website of the St. Louis Diocese.
archstl.org/worship/girm.html
It is a church document.

Call your Diocese and they will answer any question that you would like regarding the questions you have.

 

[netmilsmom]

Chalice:

Show me an official Church document that condemns holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer or assuming the oran’s position. None exist.

.

The Vatican Document Notitiae (Not 11 (1975) 226) stated the practice of holding hands during the Our Father should be “repudiated”;. That means it should not happen, and should not continue. (see also DOL 1502)
(Thank you, Jimmy Akin!)

 

[Chalice]

Freeway4321:

*February 5, 2003 edition of the Denver Catholic Register *

"In the revised General Instruction on the Roman Missal, the Holy See indicated that uniformity of gesture should be respected at this time in a specific way. The specific gesture was to be determined by the appropriate conference of bishops, and this has been done in the United States.

The bishops have determined that we should not kneel or genuflect. We receive Communion standing. Before receiving, we bow our head in adoration, and we say “Amen” and receive the body of Christ on the tongue or in the hand.

This will be new for many of the faithful, because the formal act of reverence was not widely promoted in the past. This act helps us avoid nonchalance in receiving holy Communion. It allows us to acknowledge what we are about to do: take under the form of bread and wine the resurrected body and blood of Christ. If we have become distracted during the procession, the gesture helps us to recollect ourselves.

While the act of reverence will be new for some, it may be “different” for others. In the past, we may have made a sign of the cross, a profound bow (one from the waist), genuflected or simply knelt as our act of adoration. The Church now asks us asks to submit our personal preference to her wisdom.

Some of us will need time to remember to do this. Others may not want to change the gesture of reverence they’ve been using. In all cases, we need to defer to the Church. Just as I ask that kneeling be preserved within the rubrics where indicated (such as during the entire Eucharistic Prayer), I ask that the act of reverence approved by the U.S. bishops — the bowing of the head — be embraced and maintained. This act of reverence, which should also be done before receiving the precious blood, unites us with the whole community of faith."
]

This is rock-solid communion coming from the Archbishop. Sad to see that some people believe their own desires are “better” than what the Church actually directs.

I too may have the prideful desire to continue to genuflect. With the Lord’s help I will follow the Church and not my own ego…

 

[Chalice]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

And where did your copy of the GIRM come from?
The USCCB, right?
Unless you are living at the Vatican, your Bishop is who you are under. The Vatcian has defaulted to the Bishops of each country for setting the norms.
You have the same misconception that many people have here. If it is not stated, we can do it. In the case of hand holding, if you are in the St. Louis (Or Charlotte or Cleveland) diocese as stated above, you are disobeying your Bishop.
That document is from the offical website of the St. Louis Diocese.
archstl.org/worship/girm.html
It is a church document.

Call your Diocese and they will answer any question that you would like regarding the questions you have.

GIRM #160 in applicable in the USA. Read Archbishop Chaput’s letter for a better understanding.

 

[Chalice]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

The Vatican Document Notitiae (Not 11 (1975) 226) stated the practice of holding hands during the Our Father should be “repudiated”;. That means it should not happen, and should not continue. (see also DOL 1502)
(Thank you, Jimmy Akin!)

Nix. This document does not control the Mass.

 

[netmilsmom]

Chalice:

GIRM #160 in applicable in the USA. Read Archbishop Chaput’s letter for a better understanding.

RIGHT! I’m glad you get it.
It’s applicable because the Bishops approved it and it was okayed by the Vatican.
YOU are under your Bishop, in any case that there is silence by the Vatican.

So if the Vatican is silent on hand holding (which I gave you the document from the Vatican), YOUR BISHOP rules.

Check with your Diocese, you may be disobeying your Bishop.

 

[netmilsmom]

Chalice:

Nix. This document does not control the Mass.

Okay, yeah right. So silence in the GIRM overrides another Vatican document?
That’s like putting your fingers in your ears and saying, “Lalalala I can’t hear you”
Call your Diocese and ask about handholding.
You will find out whether your Bishop allows it or not.

 

[Freeway4321]

Chalice:

This is rock-solid communion coming from the Archbishop. Sad to see that some people believe their own desires are “better” than what the Church actually directs.

I too may have the prideful desire to continue to genuflect. With the Lord’s help I will follow the Church and not my own ego…

Pride? Wow… maybe God, Saint Paul, Saint Francis, someone from EWTN & The Pope can help you out here…

"Kneeling is an irreplaceable “work” of “faith”

There is a good reason why the Church reserves the genuflection for its official act of reverence toward the Blessed Sacrament. Not just any act can be used for an act of adoration. For example, one could never use standing as an act of adoration in our culture nor in the oriental culture. We stand when a bishop or the President of the United States comes into the room, but we do not adore either one of them. Similarly, today, many bow at the presence of great dignitaries and human authority, but they do not adore them. This is also the case in oriental cultures today.

But where do people kneel before any person or thing today? Some people may try to genuflect to the Pope, but the Pope is usually seen trying to raise the person up immediately. Again, the genuflection is reserved for adoration of the Eucharist.

Once more, the act of bending the knee before Jesus Christ is not just a relative act, or an act that is based purely on culture. Rather, it transcends culture because it is an act that has scriptural, traditional, and cosmic significance. *God the Father says through Isaiah: “To me every knee shall bend” (Isa. 45:23). And St. Paul says, “for it is written: 'As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me”’ (Rom. 14:11). Again, St. Paul states “at Jesus’ name every knee must bend in the heavens, on the earth, and under the earth” (Phil. 2:10). * And, this “kneeling,” or “bending of the knee,” is the act of adoration of the Blessed Sacrament which has developed in the Tradition of the Church and which the faithful have adopted down through the ages. *St. Francis of Assisi, for example, said in his twelfth century “Letter to All Superiors of the Friars Minor”:

When the priest is offering sacrifice at the altar or the Blessed Sacrament is being carried about, everyone should kneel down and give praise, glory, and honor to our Lord and God, living and true.[22]*
Thus, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger states in one of his theological works about the act of “kneeling” during the Liturgy: “Here the bodily gesture attains the status of a confession of faith in Christ: words could not replace such a confession.”[23]"

cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a009.html

 

[Chalice]

Okay, yeah right. So silence in the GIRM overrides another Vatican document?
That’s like putting your fingers in your ears and saying, “Lalalala I can’t hear you”
Call your Diocese and ask about handholding.
You will find out whether your Bishop allows it or not.
[/quote]

Your childish posting says a great deal about the veracity of it as well…

 

[Chalice]

Freeway4321:

Pride? Wow… maybe God, Saint Paul, Saint Francis, someone from EWTN & The Pope can help you out here…

"Kneeling is an irreplaceable “work” of “faith”

There is a good reason why the Church reserves the genuflection for its official act of reverence toward the Blessed Sacrament. Not just any act can be used for an act of adoration. For example, one could never use standing as an act of adoration in our culture nor in the oriental culture. We stand when a bishop or the President of the United States comes into the room, but we do not adore either one of them. Similarly, today, many bow at the presence of great dignitaries and human authority, but they do not adore them. This is also the case in oriental cultures today.

But where do people kneel before any person or thing today? Some people may try to genuflect to the Pope, but the Pope is usually seen trying to raise the person up immediately. Again, the genuflection is reserved for adoration of the Eucharist.

Once more, the act of bending the knee before Jesus Christ is not just a relative act, or an act that is based purely on culture. Rather, it transcends culture because it is an act that has scriptural, traditional, and cosmic significance. *God the Father says through Isaiah: “To me every knee shall bend” (Isa. 45:23). And St. Paul says, “for it is written: 'As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me”’ (Rom. 14:11). Again, St. Paul states “at Jesus’ name every knee must bend in the heavens, on the earth, and under the earth” (Phil. 2:10). * And, this “kneeling,” or “bending of the knee,” is the act of adoration of the Blessed Sacrament which has developed in the Tradition of the Church and which the faithful have adopted down through the ages. *St. Francis of Assisi, for example, said in his twelfth century “Letter to All Superiors of the Friars Minor”:

When the priest is offering sacrifice at the altar or the Blessed Sacrament is being carried about, everyone should kneel down and give praise, glory, and honor to our Lord and God, living and true.[22]*
Thus, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger states in one of his theological works about the act of “kneeling” during the Liturgy: “Here the bodily gesture attains the status of a confession of faith in Christ: words could not replace such a confession.”[23]"

cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a009.html

Your retort is VERY Protestant in nature. The Church has spoken on this issue. Very clear. Read the Archbishop’s letter above. Yet you feel you know better so you glean some tidbits that you interpret in a way that make you feel they trump what the Church actually directs. Sadly you cannot offer an official Church document that contravenes the GIRM on this matter.

You follow your ego. I’ll follow the Church.

 

[Chalice]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

RIGHT! I’m glad you get it.
It’s applicable because the Bishops approved it and it was okayed by the Vatican.
YOU are under your Bishop, in any case that there is silence by the Vatican.

So if the Vatican is silent on hand holding (which I gave you the document from the Vatican), YOUR BISHOP rules.

Check with your Diocese, you may be disobeying your Bishop.

The Archbishop need not “approve” the GIRM for it to be valid. And the Vatican did far more than “okay” it. You’re wrong again.

 

[Freeway4321]

Chalice:

Your retort is VERY Protestant in nature. The Church has spoken on this issue. Very clear. Read the Archbishop’s letter above. Yet you feel you know better so you glean some tidbits that you interpret in a way that make you feel they trump what the Church actually directs. Sadly you cannot offer an official Church document that contravenes the GIRM on this matter.

You follow your ego. I’ll follow the Church.

This is going from funny to sad… I have to defend genuflecting & kneeling to someone who calls him or her self “Catholic”

The destruction continues…

 

[netmilsmom]

Chalice:

Your childish posting says a great deal about the veracity of it as well…

Those who have no facts to back a point throw insults.

Check with your Diocese. You will see.