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fix
Guest
Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex agendi.
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netmilsmom
Guest
Yes! You are correct.I say this with all due respect for your sensibilities, but you don’t understand how this works. If your bishop is silent on hand holding it’s because it has been repudiated by the Vatican, therefore, he doesn’t need to add his okay to this repudiation. His silence supports the ruling not negates it. Really though, if this is an ongoing problem in his diocese he ought to make it clear that this practice has been repudiated instead of letting people go on thinking it’s all right when it isn’t.
But if the Bishop is encouraging handholding (which is what I was speaking about), he is using the GIRM and ignoring other Vatican documents. As is the OP.
To state that something is not addressed in the GIRM, but is addressed in another document is perfectly okay, is not correct. Silence does not negate another Vatican document.
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netmilsmom
Guest
That’s it!
Thanks for clarifying!
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netmilsmom
Guest
Yes we are.
That is Slovak, as in Slovakia.
We are a Latin Rite church. We are Vatican II, as my Holy and intelligent Pastor states, “The way it is suppose to be.”
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Chalice
Guest
You need to get your stories straight. While some Eastern Churches DO fall under the auspices of Latin Rite bishops in the USA (typically because they have a tiny presence in the USA) it’s absurd to suggest a single Latin Rite parish in the USA is under a foreign bishop.Unfortunately, it is not the parish I attend. It is too far away. Anyway, as far as I know, it is not an Eastern Rite parish! It is a Latin Rite parish. The priest celebrates the Normative (Pauline) Mass, he just does so without all the unfortunate innovations and illicit adaptations that are so rampant elsewhere.
Our Archdiocese has many non-Latin Rite (Maronite, Byzantine, Chaldean, etc.) parishes that technically fall under other Eparchies, etc. but this Slovak Catholic Parish is not in the same category.
Hopefully, netmil(name removed by moderator) can confirm this or if I am incorrect then she can set me straight!
:tiphat:
If you are talking about a individual priest, he has to follow the Bishop in whose diocese he is celebrating the Mass, even if he is not incardinated in said diocese.
This is nothing more than noise…
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netmilsmom
Guest
Okay, I’ll make sure I tell my pastor that you said so.
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Freeway4321
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Look, stop arguing you’re not Latin-Rite! Get over it already. How dare you claim a Slovak church is something other than Eastern!
C
Chalice
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
There we go…
Just the sort of retort I would expect in this case. Let’s see, where’s that rolling face?
There we go…
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netmilsmom
Guest
Hehehe!Look, stop arguing you’re not Latin-Rite! Get over it already. How dare you claim a Slovak church is something other than Eastern!
Here’s a list for all of those who are clueless on which are Eastern Rites
- Byzantine liturgical tradition:
- Albanian Catholic Church
- Belarusian Catholic Church
- Bulgarian Catholic Church
- Byzantine Catholic Church in America
- Croatian Byzantine Catholic Church
- Czech Catholic Church
- Georgian Catholic Church
- Greek Catholic Church
- Hungarian Catholic Church
- Melkite Greek Catholic Church
- Romanian Catholic Church
- Russian Catholic Church
- Ruthenian Catholic Church
- Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
- Antiochene liturgical tradition:
- Maronite Catholic Church
- Syrian Catholic Church
- Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
- Chaldean liturgical tradition:
- Chaldean Catholic Church
- Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
- Armenian liturgical tradition:
- Armenian Catholic Church
- Alexandrian liturgical tradition:
- Coptic Catholic Church
- Ethiopian Catholic Church
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netmilsmom
Guest
I always try to be polite to those who are to me.
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Freeway4321
Guest
Good work.
I don’t see why it’s so hard to see that there are churches like this who are Latin Rite. There are Spanish, French, Portuguese, German (and so forth…) parishes that are Latin-Rite. So to think that a Slovak church is any different doesn’t make much sense. Although I am not saying it couldn’t be confusing…
Here is a French Catholic Parish.
http://www.archdioceseofhartford.org/images/churches/church281.jpg
As you can see it looks like your average Latin-Rite parish… well at least when the church was looked at as a holy place, worthy of such beauty.
I don’t see why it’s so hard to see that there are churches like this who are Latin Rite. There are Spanish, French, Portuguese, German (and so forth…) parishes that are Latin-Rite. So to think that a Slovak church is any different doesn’t make much sense. Although I am not saying it couldn’t be confusing…
Here is a French Catholic Parish.
http://www.archdioceseofhartford.org/images/churches/church281.jpg
As you can see it looks like your average Latin-Rite parish… well at least when the church was looked at as a holy place, worthy of such beauty.
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netmilsmom
Guest
It’s confusing because there are Byzantine Catholics in Slovakia.
But check out our mission statement…
PARISH MISSION STATEMENT*
SS. CYRIL AND METHODIUS PARISH IS A ROMAN CATHOLIC SLOVAK COMMUNITY THAT WELCOMES ALL WHO WISH TO LEARN ABOUT, EMBRACE, AND ACTIVELY PRACTICE THE ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION. AS A “FAMILY OF FAMILIES,” WE ARE DEDICATED TO THE PROPAGATION AND DEEPENING OF OUR CATHOLIC FAITH. THIS IS FACILITATED THROUGH THE TEACHING OF, AND ADHERENCE TO, THE MAGISTERIUM AND TRADITIONS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.*
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Freeway4321
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Indeed. But there are no Slovak Eastern Catholics in the U.S. (that I know of). And any parish that is something other than Latin-Rite usually has Byzantine, Melkite, or Ukrainian before it. Those are the most prominent in the U.S.
I
ICXCNIKA
Guest
As we used to say in the Pentecostal Church, Amen Sister, preach it!
Chalice:
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netmilsmom
Guest
True!
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Chalice
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Looking in the mirror? Go back and look at my posting and see if you can understand what you obviously missed the first time.
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Irish_Melkite
Guest
A warning to readers of the thread - like most of the past 25 or so posts here, this one is off-topic as well. I rarely post outside the Eastern Forum, but the banter here about Slovaks and their Churches came to my attention.
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Chalice:
msproule:
Chalice:
msproule:
Chalice:
Freeway4321:
Freeway4321:
Freeway4321:
As the poster who identified her parish as Slovak denotes it as Ss. Cyril & Methodius and others familiar with it seem to be from MI, I presume that she’s speaking of Farnost´ Svatych Cyrila A Metodas in Sterling Heights. Ss. Cyril & Methodius is indeed a Slovak Latin Rite parish, one of nine parishes and two pastoral centers throughout the US (primarily in the Rust Belt) that are “national parishes” or “parishes of personal jurisdiction” for Slovak faithful of the Latin Church (sadly, these serve only about 700 of the estimated 2M Slovak Latin Catholics in the US).
The lady is however, incorrect, when she indicates that her pastor is subject to his bishop in Slovakia. While he may be incardinated in one of the six Latin Sees in Slovakia, he is presumably on leave of absence from that See to serve the Archdiocese of Detroit. Unless and until the Latin Archbishop of Detroit releases him or his hierarch in Slovakia recalls him, he is subject to the ordinary discipline of the Latin Archbishop of Detroit, who has granted him faculties to function there.
Contrary to the thinking expressed (and not particularly charitably) by some, parishes of personal jurisdiction such as this are not uncommon and the mere fact that they serve (in this instance) a Slavic people does not make them Eastern Catholic. In fact, only about 220,000 of the approximately 3.8M Catholics in Slovakia are of the Slovak Greek-Catholic (or Byzantine) Church sui iuris; the vast majority are of the Latin Church.
Saint Joseph’s, a parish of personal jurisdiction for Latin Slovaks, erected in Hazleton, PA in 1885, was the first of many such parishes. The majority of these were served by Slovak Franciscans of the Commissariat of the Holy Family, later divided into the Francisan Slovak, Franciscan Slovenian, and Franciscan Croat Custodies. Most of these parishes are now of blessed memory, suppressed as the Slovak ethnic enclaves, like those of other nationalities broke up and parishioners dispersed into the suburbs throughout the 20th century.
(continued)
netmil(name removed by moderator):
netmil(name removed by moderator):
netmil(name removed by moderator):
To those reading this thread because they were interested in its topic, my apologies for this interruption and, more particularly, for rehashing all of the above off-topic quotes. As aggravating as it is to readers to find a subject in which they are interested has gone astray, it’s the more so when what’s being posted tangentially is contradictory and ill-informed. I want to put the misinformation that’s being bandied about to rest and thought that I best have the relevant quotes at hand.
As the poster who identified her parish as Slovak denotes it as Ss. Cyril & Methodius and others familiar with it seem to be from MI, I presume that she’s speaking of Farnost´ Svatych Cyrila A Metodas in Sterling Heights. Ss. Cyril & Methodius is indeed a Slovak Latin Rite parish, one of nine parishes and two pastoral centers throughout the US (primarily in the Rust Belt) that are “national parishes” or “parishes of personal jurisdiction” for Slovak faithful of the Latin Church (sadly, these serve only about 700 of the estimated 2M Slovak Latin Catholics in the US).
The lady is however, incorrect, when she indicates that her pastor is subject to his bishop in Slovakia. While he may be incardinated in one of the six Latin Sees in Slovakia, he is presumably on leave of absence from that See to serve the Archdiocese of Detroit. Unless and until the Latin Archbishop of Detroit releases him or his hierarch in Slovakia recalls him, he is subject to the ordinary discipline of the Latin Archbishop of Detroit, who has granted him faculties to function there.
Contrary to the thinking expressed (and not particularly charitably) by some, parishes of personal jurisdiction such as this are not uncommon and the mere fact that they serve (in this instance) a Slavic people does not make them Eastern Catholic. In fact, only about 220,000 of the approximately 3.8M Catholics in Slovakia are of the Slovak Greek-Catholic (or Byzantine) Church sui iuris; the vast majority are of the Latin Church.
Saint Joseph’s, a parish of personal jurisdiction for Latin Slovaks, erected in Hazleton, PA in 1885, was the first of many such parishes. The majority of these were served by Slovak Franciscans of the Commissariat of the Holy Family, later divided into the Francisan Slovak, Franciscan Slovenian, and Franciscan Croat Custodies. Most of these parishes are now of blessed memory, suppressed as the Slovak ethnic enclaves, like those of other nationalities broke up and parishioners dispersed into the suburbs throughout the 20th century.
(continued)
I
Irish_Melkite
Guest
As a side note, the history of Slovak Latin Catholics is particularly notable for the fact that, during those centuries when folks think of the Mass as being served only in Latin, it was served in the vernacular for Slovaks, using Missals and Service Books written in the Glagolitic alphabet, the oldest known written Slav alphabet, which was created by Saints Cyril & Methodius, the Apostles to the Slavs. Often mistakenly termed the Glagolitic Mass, the Indult granted to Ss. Cyril and Methodius for its service still exists in Slovakia and I believe is extended to certain Slovak churches in the diaspora on the their feastday.
There are, in fact, Byzantine Slovak Catholics in the US; they are served by and under the pastoral care of the Metropolitan Archeparchy of Pittsburgh of the Ruthenians, which has jurisdiction of Carpatho-Rusyn, Croat, Hungarian, and Slovak Catholics of the Byzantine Rite and has since the Apostic Exarchate was canonically erected in 1924. There remain parishes within the Metropolia which were originally established for the specific care of Byzantine Slovaks and Father Alexis Toth, a Saint of the Orthodox Church (whose unkind treatment at the hands of John Ireland, then Archbishop of Minneapolis, resulted in thousands of Catholics turning to Orthodoxy and the formation of an entire Orthodox Church - the OCA), was a priest of the Eparchy of Presov of the Slovaks when he was initially sent to the US to serve the Byzantine Slovak Catholics.
And, while it is true that Melkites, Ruthenians, and Ukrainians are the most commonly-encountered Byzantine Catholics in the US, there are also Byzantine Italo-Greico-Albanians, Romanians, and Russians with parishes here - the Romanians having a hierarch as well. The Maronites have more than 60 parishes and there are jurisdictions for and parishes of the Armenian, Chaldean, Syriac, Syro-Malabarese, and Syro-Malankarese Churches. The Copts and Ethiopians also both have parishes here, although they do not yet have a canonical jurisdiction.
Finally, the list of Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris is incorrect.
Many years,
Neil
There are, in fact, Byzantine Slovak Catholics in the US; they are served by and under the pastoral care of the Metropolitan Archeparchy of Pittsburgh of the Ruthenians, which has jurisdiction of Carpatho-Rusyn, Croat, Hungarian, and Slovak Catholics of the Byzantine Rite and has since the Apostic Exarchate was canonically erected in 1924. There remain parishes within the Metropolia which were originally established for the specific care of Byzantine Slovaks and Father Alexis Toth, a Saint of the Orthodox Church (whose unkind treatment at the hands of John Ireland, then Archbishop of Minneapolis, resulted in thousands of Catholics turning to Orthodoxy and the formation of an entire Orthodox Church - the OCA), was a priest of the Eparchy of Presov of the Slovaks when he was initially sent to the US to serve the Byzantine Slovak Catholics.
And, while it is true that Melkites, Ruthenians, and Ukrainians are the most commonly-encountered Byzantine Catholics in the US, there are also Byzantine Italo-Greico-Albanians, Romanians, and Russians with parishes here - the Romanians having a hierarch as well. The Maronites have more than 60 parishes and there are jurisdictions for and parishes of the Armenian, Chaldean, Syriac, Syro-Malabarese, and Syro-Malankarese Churches. The Copts and Ethiopians also both have parishes here, although they do not yet have a canonical jurisdiction.
Finally, the list of Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris is incorrect.
- the Slovak Greek-Catholic Church is missing from the list of Churches in the Byzantine Rite;
- the Byzantine Italo-Greico-Albanian Catholic Church is missing from the same list;
- a Czech Catholic Church is listed among those of the Byzantine Rite - there is, in fact, no such Church - the Apostolic Exarchate in the Czech Republic is a Ruthenian jurisdiction;
- the Byzantine Catholic Church in America is listed among those of the Byzantine Rite, as is the Ruthenian Catholic Church - they are, in fact, both Ruthenian, albeit distinct canonical jurisdictions with no formal unified hierarchical structure yet bridging them
Many years,
Neil
J
JButky
Guest
This Church is scheduled for restoration BTW. It is to made into a Shrine. If you’d like to more about the project, let me know and I’ll start a new thread.
That picture is the Church of St. Anne in Waterbury, CT
Joe B
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netmilsmom
Guest
Irish Melkite:
You are a wealth of information!
I see that I did state the jurisdiction incorrectly.
But I would have to amend your statement.
In matters of liturgy, my Pastor is bound to his Bishop in Slovakia. While I am sure that if our Detroit Diocese put down an absolute on a directive, i.e. kneeling for communion being standing only, our pastor would go to his own Bishop to have permission to continue. So therefore, while the Detroit Diocese may have jurisdiction over the church, the Priest and his liturgy continue in the norms of Slovakia.
This has happened with kneeling for communion in our church. I’m sure there are discussions behind the scenes that you and I do not know about but being part of this church, is marvelous.
Oh and don’t give a second thought to the numbers of Slovaks being served by these churches. We have Nearly 800 families in a church that hold 300. I’m on the welcoming committee and get a family a week to welcome. The Slovaks in our area are the beacon of hope for many who want an “Historically Catholic” liturgy. I thank God every day that I have been brought here!
And let me tell you, new Slovaks are being made every day here. Non-Slovaks are marrying Slovaks. The norm in our parish is 4 children. There are lots of us continuing the heritage. It’s a beautiful thing!
(My Polish daughter dances Slovak at the church. She speaks more Slovak than Polish any day!)
My Goodness Neil, thank you for coming in on this thread!
You are a wealth of information!
I see that I did state the jurisdiction incorrectly.
But I would have to amend your statement.
In matters of liturgy, my Pastor is bound to his Bishop in Slovakia. While I am sure that if our Detroit Diocese put down an absolute on a directive, i.e. kneeling for communion being standing only, our pastor would go to his own Bishop to have permission to continue. So therefore, while the Detroit Diocese may have jurisdiction over the church, the Priest and his liturgy continue in the norms of Slovakia.
This has happened with kneeling for communion in our church. I’m sure there are discussions behind the scenes that you and I do not know about but being part of this church, is marvelous.
Oh and don’t give a second thought to the numbers of Slovaks being served by these churches. We have Nearly 800 families in a church that hold 300. I’m on the welcoming committee and get a family a week to welcome. The Slovaks in our area are the beacon of hope for many who want an “Historically Catholic” liturgy. I thank God every day that I have been brought here!
And let me tell you, new Slovaks are being made every day here. Non-Slovaks are marrying Slovaks. The norm in our parish is 4 children. There are lots of us continuing the heritage. It’s a beautiful thing!
(My Polish daughter dances Slovak at the church. She speaks more Slovak than Polish any day!)
- Status