Over-focusing on the externals?

[netmilsmom]

Irish Melkite:

Finally, the list of Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris is incorrect.

• the Slovak Greek-Catholic Church is missing from the list of Churches in the Byzantine Rite;
• the Byzantine Italo-Greico-Albanian Catholic Church is missing from the same list;
• a Czech Catholic Church is listed among those of the Byzantine Rite - there is, in fact, no such Church - the Apostolic Exarchate in the Czech Republic is a Ruthenian jurisdiction;
• the Byzantine Catholic Church in America is listed among those of the Byzantine Rite, as is the Ruthenian Catholic Church - they are, in fact, both Ruthenian, albeit distinct canonical jurisdictions with no formal unified hierarchical structure yet bridging them

Many years,

Neil

I guess Google is not always your friend. I stand corrected by an expert. Thanks!

 

[netmilsmom]

Chalice:

Looking in the mirror? Go back and look at my posting and see if you can understand what you obviously missed the first time.

Which posting?
Please cut and paste your quotes if you would like me to respond to them. This thread is pretty long.

 

[Joe_Monahan]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Oh and don’t give a second thought to the numbers of Slovaks being served by these churches. We have Nearly 800 families in a church that hold 300.

Irish Melkite:

Ss. Cyril & Methodius is indeed a Slovak Latin Rite parish, one of nine parishes and two pastoral centers throughout the US (primarily in the Rust Belt) that are “national parishes” or “parishes of personal jurisdiction” for Slovak faithful of the Latin Church (sadly, these serve only about 700 of the estimated 2M Slovak Latin Catholics in the US).

Mom,

There are 2 errors in my paragraph above (one should not post before coffee). I meant to say that there are 13 parishes in 9 cities (as opposed to 9 parishes) and that they together serve 70K Slovaks, not 700, still only a small pittance of the 2M estimated Slovak Latin Catholics in the US.
netmil(name removed by moderator):

In matters of liturgy, my Pastor is bound to his Bishop in Slovakia. While I am sure that if our Detroit Diocese put down an absolute on a directive, i.e. kneeling for communion being standing only, our pastor would go to his own Bishop to have permission to continue. So therefore, while the Detroit Diocese may have jurisdiction over the church, the Priest and his liturgy continue in the norms of Slovakia.

I’m sorry, but this is not the case. Should your pastor be unhappy about a liturgical directive from the Latin Archdiocese of Detroit, his only recourse would be to ask his bishop in Slovakia to recall him (if he is, in fact, on loan from there). Only in the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches does the authority of a hierarch extend to matters liturgical outside the bounds of his geographical territory - and even there that is only true as to the Churches of Patriarchal and Major Archepiscopal rank.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Irish_Melkite]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Oh and don’t give a second thought to the numbers of Slovaks being served by these churches. We have Nearly 800 families in a church that hold 300.

Irish Melkite:

Ss. Cyril & Methodius is indeed a Slovak Latin Rite parish, one of nine parishes and two pastoral centers throughout the US (primarily in the Rust Belt) that are “national parishes” or “parishes of personal jurisdiction” for Slovak faithful of the Latin Church (sadly, these serve only about 700 of the estimated 2M Slovak Latin Catholics in the US).

Mom,

There are 2 errors in my paragraph above (one should not post before coffee). I meant to say that there are 13 parishes in 9 cities (as opposed to 9 parishes) and that they together serve 70K Slovaks, not 700, still only a small pittance of the 2M estimated Slovak Latin Catholics in the US.
netmil(name removed by moderator):

In matters of liturgy, my Pastor is bound to his Bishop in Slovakia. While I am sure that if our Detroit Diocese put down an absolute on a directive, i.e. kneeling for communion being standing only, our pastor would go to his own Bishop to have permission to continue. So therefore, while the Detroit Diocese may have jurisdiction over the church, the Priest and his liturgy continue in the norms of Slovakia.

I’m sorry, but this is not the case. Should your pastor be unhappy about a liturgical directive from the Latin Archdiocese of Detroit, his only recourse would be to ask his bishop in Slovakia to recall him (if he is, in fact, on loan from there). Only in the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches does the authority of a hierarch extend to matters liturgical outside the bounds of his geographical territory - and even there that is only true as to the Churches of Patriarchal and Major Archepiscopal rank.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Frank_Roman]

The Externals are IMPORTANT!

I am an altar server. I hold the paten for the priest during Holy Communion. One day I saw about 5 women/girls in one isle (only one priest gives communion, there are two isles processing for Communion) come up for communion wearing clothes my mother wouldn’t have my sister caught dead in if they were on the beach. They recieved standing, they didn’t recieve on the hand, they grabbed Our Lord.

Opposite them a devout family, a grandmother, mother, and three sisters recieved with profound reverence kneeling, on the tongue. Their reverence was a type of evangelization to those who were irreverent.

The priest commended the great reverence of the people that day after mass, gee I wonder who that was directed to?

 

[netmilsmom]

Irish Melkite:

Mom,

There are 2 errors in my paragraph above (one should not post before coffee). I meant to say that there are 13 parishes in 9 cities (as opposed to 9 parishes) and that they together serve 70K Slovaks, not 700, still only a small pittance of the 2M estimated Slovak Latin Catholics in the US.

Give us time.

I’m sorry, but this is not the case. Should your pastor be unhappy about a liturgical directive from the Latin Archdiocese of Detroit, his only recourse would be to ask his bishop in Slovakia to recall him (if he is, in fact, on loan from there). Only in the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches does the authority of a hierarch extend to matters liturgical outside the bounds of his geographical territory - and even there that is only true as to the Churches of Patriarchal and Major Archepiscopal rank.

Exactly. The Archdiocese does not want to lose our Pastor, the other priests who have been brought in It is the same way with the Irish priest at Assumption Grotto. I was told that the reason why our parishes can celebrate the ways that they do is because each priest has his own Bishop supporting him.

Knowing how our Historically Catholic these parishes are compared with how modern the other churches in the Diocese are, what I have been told made sense. Perhaps I fell to misinformation, but somethings going on here. As with the kneeling for communion example, the Diocese does not go against what the Bishop in Slovakia says. Perhaps that is just a courtesy.

Thanks for setting things straight. If we lost our Liturgy, our congregation would be flying to the Eastern Rite churches. I was going there before I found Cyril’s.

 

[Chalice]

Frank Roman:

The Externals are IMPORTANT!

I am an altar server. I hold the paten for the priest during Holy Communion. One day I saw about 5 women/girls in one isle (only one priest gives communion, there are two isles processing for Communion) come up for communion wearing clothes my mother wouldn’t have my sister caught dead in if they were on the beach. They recieved standing, they didn’t recieve on the hand, they grabbed Our Lord.

Opposite them a devout family, a grandmother, mother, and three sisters recieved with profound reverence kneeling, on the tongue. Their reverence was a type of evangelization to those who were irreverent.

The priest commended the great reverence of the people that day after mass, gee I wonder who that was directed to?

The externals are indeed important, but we cannot focus on them at a level that will divert our main attention to them and not the Sacrifice.

Comments like that really used to bug me. After all, just because we focus on the externals DOSEN’T mean we can’t also focus on the Sacrifice! While that’s true, I definately sense that some people from this forum attend Mass from the standpoint of what can they find that is “wrong.”

Never stop working the issues, and never lose the primarcy focus.

You close with a very sad judgement of others. There is no way to tell if someone is “devout” because they receive Holy Communion on their tongues while kneeling. None. In fact, given the situation, they might be ignoring the magisterium’s directive to stand.

Making such comments and judgement have long marginalized those who often label themselves as “traditionalists.”

 

[Chalice]

Frank Roman:

The Externals are IMPORTANT!

I am an altar server. I hold the paten for the priest during Holy Communion. One day I saw about 5 women/girls in one isle (only one priest gives communion, there are two isles processing for Communion) come up for communion wearing clothes my mother wouldn’t have my sister caught dead in if they were on the beach. They recieved standing, they didn’t recieve on the hand, they grabbed Our Lord.

Opposite them a devout family, a grandmother, mother, and three sisters recieved with profound reverence kneeling, on the tongue. Their reverence was a type of evangelization to those who were irreverent.

The priest commended the great reverence of the people that day after mass, gee I wonder who that was directed to?

If this happened at the Pauline Mass, their kneeling could also have been a mark of arrogance, particularly to those who have actually read the GIRM.

 

[Chalice]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Give us time.

Exactly. The Archdiocese does not want to lose our Pastor, the other priests who have been brought in It is the same way with the Irish priest at Assumption Grotto. I was told that the reason why our parishes can celebrate the ways that they do is because each priest has his own Bishop supporting him.

Knowing how our Historically Catholic these parishes are compared with how modern the other churches in the Diocese are, what I have been told made sense. **Perhaps I fell to misinformation, but somethings going on here. ** As with the kneeling for communion example, the Diocese does not go against what the Bishop in Slovakia says. Perhaps that is just a courtesy.

Thanks for setting things straight. If we lost our Liturgy, our congregation would be flying to the Eastern Rite churches. I was going there before I found Cyril’s.

Likely.

 

[netmilsmom]

Chalice:

Likely.

Perhaps you should take that beam out of your eye.

In a debate one must be able to admit to misinformation. If a person debating digs in heels and, without reference, states that something is wrong, stating no or nix, it isn’t much of a debate.

And that includes me. I have no problem admitting I listened to someone who gave me misinformation. I should have researched it and come up with references. Neil came in and told both of us that we were wrong in statements.

How about you?

 

[GoLatin]

Frank Roman:

The Externals are IMPORTANT!

I am an altar server. I hold the paten for the priest during Holy Communion. One day I saw about 5 women/girls in one isle (only one priest gives communion, there are two isles processing for Communion) come up for communion wearing clothes my mother wouldn’t have my sister caught dead in if they were on the beach. They recieved standing, they didn’t recieve on the hand, they grabbed Our Lord.

Opposite them a devout family, a grandmother, mother, and three sisters recieved with profound reverence kneeling, on the tongue. Their reverence was a type of evangelization to those who were irreverent.

The priest commended the great reverence of the people that day after mass, gee I wonder who that was directed to?

What those five people did was absolutely wonderful. I applaud them!:clapping:

 

[fix]

Chalice:

After reading this forum for a while now and discussing it with my priest, it seems that far too many people are over-focused on what he called “the externals.”

A small number of examples:

If people want to receive Holy Communion during the celebration of the Pauline Mass they shouldn’t be refused if they demand to kneel, but the Church asks that we stand.

Though no document ever required them to be removed, the existance of communion railing dosen’t make a church any “better.”

No one will physically stop us from genuflecting before receiving either, but again, the Church asks that we bow.

If our local bishop asks that we stand after the Agnus Dei, it’s not “better” if we ignore him and choose to kneel. It’s prideful.

The Church demands that the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ be resposed in a tabernacle located in a secure and noble location. The location is not limited to the back/center of the sanctuary, although that most certainly is a prime location.

Both male and females are currently allowed to be altar servers in the Church. If and until this changes, one sex is no “better” than the other at this ministry.

If a woman wants to cover her head at Mass (the Church does not direct this) it shouldn’t be a big deal. Unfortunately some people here seem to think of it as a badge of honor, a visible hair-shirt, or worse, a requirement from the Church.

Yes, the Tridentine Mass when correctly celebrated is indeed gorgeous. So is the Pauline Mass. Both have potential for abuse, as well as for great solemnity.

The Church leaves the physical orientation of the celebrant up to the celebrant. Ad orientum is no better (or worse) than versus populum, at least per Church documents.

I could go on and on and on. While liturgical abuses (and irregularities) are never good, and while it’s nice to make the Mass as solemn as possible (at least to me), we can’t let our focus on externals (or what we personally feel is “best”) divert our attention from what is taking place on the altar of sacrifice.

The point is over the past few decades there has been too much experimentation and too many irregularities in the mass. Many are justly disturbed. The answer is not to become despondent or obsessed with all the abuses and irregularities, nor is the answer to chastize those who are upset.

 

[Freeway4321]

JButky:

This Church is scheduled for restoration BTW. It is to made into a Shrine. If you’d like to more about the project, let me know and I’ll start a new thread.

That picture is the Church of St. Anne in Waterbury, CT

Joe B

Yes! I recently drove by it. I look at in awe… such a beautiful church.

 

[Freeway4321]

Council of Trent.
Twenty-second Session, Sept. 17.

Canon VII.—If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety: *anathema sit. *

 

[Chalice]

Perhaps you should take that beam out of your eye.

In a debate one must be able to admit to misinformation. If a person debating digs in heels and, without reference, states that something is wrong, stating no or nix, it isn’t much of a debate.

And that includes me. I have no problem admitting I listened to someone who gave me misinformation. I should have researched it and come up with references. Neil came in and told both of us that we were wrong in statements.

How about you?

There you go again. What, no rolling heads?

There is nothing wrong with my posting #65 yet you just ignored it. It wasn’t until posting #83 (I believe) that you seemed to find the information necessary to understand your mistake – though no references were given with either.

The arrogance shown by you and others between these two posts takes a toll on these forums. No problem though, I just bring my salt shaker now…

 

[Marian_Carroll]

Mod alert: Review for tone and content prior to posting -delete all personal remarks and offer light – not heat. I will thank you and the Lord will bless you.

 

[JButky]

Freeway4321:

Yes! I recently drove by it. I look at in awe… such a beautiful church.

I posted a little something over at the “In the News” Catholic news section. I be happy to share details over there if you’d like to know some of the happenings…

Joe B

 

[Brendan]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Exactly. The Archdiocese does not want to lose our Pastor, the other priests who have been brought in .

No kidding!

It would be quite a loss for the Archdiocese if your pastor was ever recalled.

Two parishes in Detroit, Divine Child and Sts. Cyril and Methodius account for half our seminarians.

I’m positive that if it wasn’t intrinsically immoral, Cardinal Maida would be looking at cloning Fr. Kosnac

I do love going to Mass there. No EMHC’s, No female altar servers, bells at the Epiclesis and Elevations, kneelers for Communion, and no Communion in the hand.

It is no wonder at all why it produces so many fine young men for the seminary

 

[netmilsmom]

Brendan:

No kidding!

It would be quite a loss for the Archdiocese if your pastor was ever recalled.

Two parishes in Detroit, Divine Child and Sts. Cyril and Methodius account for half our seminarians.

I’m positive that if it wasn’t intrinsically immoral, Cardinal Maida would be looking at cloning Fr. Kosnac

I do love going to Mass there. No EMHC’s, No female altar servers, bells at the Epiclesis and Elevations, kneelers for Communion, and no Communion in the hand.

It is no wonder at all why it produces so many fine young men for the seminary

Amen!
I would have to consider moving to Slovakia!
(see my girls in the children’s choir. 9:30 Holy Mass every 4th Sunday)

Where is Divine Child? Is it like us?

 

[David_Zampino]

I was trained in a very traditional, high-church, Anglican seminary. Upon converting, I had to (and continue to have to) try to avoid pious gestures, externals, etc. which “could” actually detract from someone else’s worship.

My (quite conservative) parish priest put it this way: If/when, God willing, I am allowed to celebrate Mass in the Catholic Church, I owe it to the faithful that I follow correctly the rubrics in the Sacramentary as they are given.

For me, this was very good advice, even though I still occasionally slip up!

Blessings.