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njlisa
Guest
Your book sounds fascinating.
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njlisa
Guest
I think the language illustrates the exact point I wanted to make. By avoiding the ugly reality of abortion, the right to chose becomes more palatable.
God may give us free will, but he doesn’t want us to use that capacity to make bad choices. Abortion is a bad choice for a woman and for her child. The woman deserves better choices – community support, familial support, paternal responsibility, job training, child care, adoption counseling. These choices would help her and the child have a good outcome. A trip to an abortion clinic to have her child vacuumed out of her womb is a bad choice – even if her boyfriend picks up the tab. There’s nothing fair or right about a decision that leads a woman to the abortionist’s office.
And let me just suggest, if you have the stomach for it, that you view a real-time ultrasound of an abortion. I can send you the link – it’s nearly unwatchable. But it’s ultimate outcome of a woman’s “reproductive freedom.”
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Lotharson
Guest
How I am to react Christianly if a furious feminist describes me as a male Taliban robbing the body of a woman?
Lovely greetings from Germany.
Liebe Grüsse aus Deutschland.
Lothars Sohn - Lothar’s son
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com
Lovely greetings from Germany.
Liebe Grüsse aus Deutschland.
Lothars Sohn - Lothar’s son
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com
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njlisa
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I guess with some of the points we’ve made here.
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casey_cates
Guest
@DaddyGirl - You should have been at the Texas Legislature if you think some people don’t want others to get abortions. Some people see it as contraception after the fact (in fact, pro-abortionists are saying that men should support abortion so they don’t have to suffer consequences of a pregnancy - they call it bro-choice), some see it as help for “overpopulation.” There were many signs that said Abortion should be any time for any reason. It was very sad.
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njlisa
Guest
Here’s one like you described. I don’t think it’s from Texas, but it illustrates your point.
The sign says “Abortion on demand and without apology.”
lh5.ggpht.com/-Z2aZcsnIhXk/UYKmZA4a7kI/AAAAAAAACWE/sEcTV2xY2CQ/Flickr-6025934151.jpg
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livingwordunity
Guest
They believe that they can’t live without abortions, they will fight tooth and nail for it, but they don’t want it? :hypno:
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njlisa
Guest
:clapping:
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njlisa
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livingwordunity
Guest
The only possible reason why they are against showing an ultra-sound picture to the woman is because seeing the picture of her baby increases the chances that she would change her mind and freely decide not to go through with the abortion (the ultra-sound requirement laws don’t make getting the abortion illegal). This is proof that the only “choice” they want for the woman is that she go through with the abortion. If they truly wanted abortions to be safe (for the woman) they would regulate the abortion clinics. If they wanted the abortions to be legal but rare because abortion is such a horrific tragedy they would be doing everything they can, short of making it illegal, in attempting to persuade the woman to change her mind about actually going through with it. This could mean showing her ultrasounds, praying outside of the clinic, or even showing her what an abortion actually looks like. In other words, they would be doing everything that the Pro-Life side does short of working to make it illegal.
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john_ennis
Guest
Well, you sure have the right idea when you talk about changing hearts, not simply minds.
The points can be made logically, but of course they often just bounce off.
I try to say “she” when I refer to the fetus. It startles people just a little, and makes them think, for an instant, of the baby as a person.
Example: “Would you at least agree that it’s wrong to abort the baby after she’s old enough to feel pain?”
Also, when a conversation is at a point where I can naturally say, “Of course, you were a fetus once, and so was I,” I say that.
I teach in a public high school. When the topic of the mentally retarded comes up, I often discuss my past jobs with those people. I also say, “Today we have far, far fewer people with Down Syndrome. You know why? When we find out, while they’re still in utero (in their mother), we abort over 80% of them.” If I’m inclined I’ll also add, “Hitler would’ve love this.”
I’ve also made the comment, 'My generation has aborted over 20% of your generation."
The points can be made logically, but of course they often just bounce off.
I try to say “she” when I refer to the fetus. It startles people just a little, and makes them think, for an instant, of the baby as a person.
Example: “Would you at least agree that it’s wrong to abort the baby after she’s old enough to feel pain?”
Also, when a conversation is at a point where I can naturally say, “Of course, you were a fetus once, and so was I,” I say that.
I teach in a public high school. When the topic of the mentally retarded comes up, I often discuss my past jobs with those people. I also say, “Today we have far, far fewer people with Down Syndrome. You know why? When we find out, while they’re still in utero (in their mother), we abort over 80% of them.” If I’m inclined I’ll also add, “Hitler would’ve love this.”
I’ve also made the comment, 'My generation has aborted over 20% of your generation."
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
I think the best tack is to ask pro-choicers to explain why it should be permissible for a 5-month gestational age fetus to be aborted, but it is wrong to kill a premature baby who was born at 5 month gestational age. I ask my philosophy students this every semester, and I am yet to have a student give anything like a sufficient answer.
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livingwordunity
Guest
My daughter was born premature at 7 months gestational age, and one would never know it by looking at her. Yet, I hear about mothers getting an abortion even as late as nine months of their pregnancy. Why have so many women lost their mother’s instinct to protect their baby? I wonder if the BC pill could have an influence on their way of thinking.
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njlisa
Guest
What do you make of the argument that men have no business regulating women’s bodies? That one seems pretty hard to overcome. My thinking is that abortion isn’t a good deal for women.
Feminist author Germaine Greer wrote:
“Too many women are forced to abort by poverty, by their menfolk, by their parents … A choice is only possible if there are genuine alternatives.”
Maybe a women’s rights perspective might be the right approach for non-religious abortion rights proponents.
civilliberty.about.com/od/abortion/tp/choice_quotes.htm
Feminist author Germaine Greer wrote:
“Too many women are forced to abort by poverty, by their menfolk, by their parents … A choice is only possible if there are genuine alternatives.”
Maybe a women’s rights perspective might be the right approach for non-religious abortion rights proponents.
civilliberty.about.com/od/abortion/tp/choice_quotes.htm
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Cirdan_XII
Guest
I try to turn some of the euphemisms around.
So when I’ve got a dental appointment I tell people I’m off to see my tooth decay planning specialist. I refer to sunblock as skin cancer planning support.
I hope it makes people think.
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Cirdan_XII
Guest
There is a certain strain of feminists who are anti men. Period. They seek to hold men responsible for anything negative in the world. They entertain tinfoil-hat-esque scenarios that revolve about men having some sort of secret conspiracy to make women suffer and keep them away from good jobs or anything else they desire. You cannot engage with such women. Whatever you say will be twisted against you. Its a manic belief that cannot be taken down by reason (no, they actually say logic is a male invention). I once engaged with one on an internet forum and she told me - I kid you not - that I cannot have a valid opinion on abortions because I don’t have a vagina. You can’t win but you can at best expose them for the frauds they are, and explain to normal women that by following these cranks they are letting themselves be led by a lunatic fringe.
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Jozefo
Guest
Yep. But this society isn’t completely broken, although its governments are. The only thing holding it all together is the prospect of something worse is too great for people to bear.
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Jozefo
Guest
This is bound to shake things up a bit, but I think those women are just plain anti-patriarchy. There’s a lot that was thrown away when women came out from under coverture. Sure, they wanted the right to own property, and to vote, those kinds of things, but they lost the protective covering of their husbands and fathers.
The old time ways were that way for a reason, and not simply to keep women (supposedly) as second class citizens. Thousands of years of history prove the wisdom of that system, and it’s been almost completely undone in these last 100 years.
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marymary1975
Guest
This is totally incorrect, first while is true that we have free will we have a duty to choose what is right, and this is stated in the Bible, so what God wants is people to make the RIGHT decision which is very different.
Second, killing another human being is not making choices over your life so it has nothing to do with making “your own” choices. If they were about making their own choices what about not getting pregnant in the first place? If they think they cannot be a mother for whatever reason it is then why they don’t chose not to get pregnant or not to have sex. You see how the famous pro-choice has nothing to do with choice?
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marymary1975
Guest
I love this comparison, with your permission I will use it too.
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