Overcoming Transgender Issues

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SilentKnight said:
Genesis tells us that God created “maleness” and “femaleness” (a.k.a. men and women) and nothing else. Any variations, therefore, are just that:
SK
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Except God created all that is in nature, or directed its path whichever is your belief. There are examples of asexual species and species that do not have a defined male/female, there are also true hermaphroditic species as well. Nothing is absolute, even when it comes to God. There are species that the male takes the child rearing job by default etc. There is infinite variation in nature and none of that is considered ‘disordered’ because that’s how those species operate.

What makes it different when these variations show up in humanity, except that we are dictated otherwise? I am not a believer of biblical literalism, so I really don’t see how this works, from my perspective, to be honest.
 
aspawloski4th said:
If we are created in God’s image, and God is a complicated being, isn’t it logical that just maybe human beings would be complicated also.
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Well, according to Catholic teaching God is a actually simple being. I know; I couldn’t believe it either. But you a right that humans are complicated and come in many variations, which is why I feel it is better for those who feel this way to try to reconcile their bodies with their feelings, rather than change their bodies. The soul has no gender; the categories we call sex and gender are natural biological variations that manifest themselves uniquely in each person.
 
Joejohn39 said:
The soul has no gender; the categories we call sex and gender are natural biological variations that manifest themselves uniquely in each person.
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What’s your evidence of a genderless soul?
Joejohn39 said:
But you a right that humans are complicated and come in many variations, which is why I feel it is better for those who feel this way to try to reconcile their bodies with their feelings, rather than change their bodies. .
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So you’d advocate brain surgery and heavy medication to the point of basically making the person a zombie? (Because that’s what it takes!) They’ve TRIED to treat this condition with therapy and psychoactive drugs for over fifty years actively and there’s anecdotal reports of it happening and being treated for hundreds if not thousands of years in some cultures. NOTHING has ever worked. There are a few cases where people may have seemed to be cured, but whenever you examine those cases closely enough they likely were just suffering from mid-life crises etc. IE: Not a true case, the exception rather than the rule.

You are advocating the impossible. The suicide attempt rate of this population is generally estimated at about 50% perhaps more. I know I tried it four times myself, thankfully I’m pretty bad at it! What caused those suicide attempts? Actively trying to ‘fix’ my brain. The brain is MUCH more complicated than the body. The body is much less dangerous to fix, because if you tinker with the mind you can fracture the person irreparably. This is what happened to me.

I have been in therapy for six years to undo the ten years of therapy I had to cure myself. I have flashbacks, panic attacks and fainting spells from the stress, anxiety, guilt and fear of damnation that came from those attempts.
 
pathia said:
Except God created all that is in nature, or directed its path whichever is your belief. There are examples of asexual species and species that do not have a defined male/female, there are also true hermaphroditic species as well. Nothing is absolute, even when it comes to God. There are species that the male takes the child rearing job by default etc. There is infinite variation in nature and none of that is considered ‘disordered’ because that’s how those species operate.

What makes it different when these variations show up in humanity, except that we are dictated otherwise? I am not a believer of biblical literalism, so I really don’t see how this works, from my perspective, to be honest.
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Underestanding nod

Yes. There is plenty of variety in nature. As we’ve seen throughout the thread above, there is variety in human sexuality as well. *Biologically *speaking. But when we’re speaking morally, we’re talking about another story.

You acknowledge the fact that anomalies exist, right? Any variation from “male” and “female” in human sexuality is a an anomaly. It is something that may indeed “exist”, but it only does so by “default”, not by design. Someone born, for example, without arms is not missing their arms because that’s the way God “designed” them. He doesn’t have any arms because something is physically wrong with him. Someone that is born with both male and female genitalia is not born that way because God “created them male, female, and both”. They were born with both because something went wrong at some stage in life physically.

Obviously the final question becomes, “Who says what is normative and what is an anomaly?” Some designations in life are obvious. Others are not as much as so. Who has the authority to declare something one or the other? The answer, obviously, is God - through the Church.

And as for nothing being absolute, even when it comes God, God by definition is absolute.

SK
 
pathia said:
What’s your evidence of a genderless soul?
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Well, Scripture: “There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.” -Galatians 3:28

But also it simply doesn’t make sense. Gender is a physical, biological aspect of the human being. Even the general mental differences between males and females are biological. It’s not an aspect of one’s soul anymore than race or age is.
So you’d advocate brain surgery and heavy medication to the point of basically making the person a zombie?..The body is much less dangerous to fix, because if you tinker with the mind you can fracture the person irreparably.
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I’m saying we shouldn’t try to fix anything because nothing is broken. Each individual is unique; there is no need to try to fit some kind of template of what a “man” is supposed to be, or a “woman” either mentally or physically. IMO, it’s not a matter of whether or not one “feels” that they are a man or woman. I do not feel that I am a male; I just happen to be one. I have a male body; it doesn’t affect my identity in some instrinsic. I’d still be myself if I magically turned into a female. It makes just as much sense to me to say I’m innately a brown-haired person or that I possess a brown-haired soul or identity.
 
Joejohn39 said:
I’m saying we shouldn’t try to fix anything because nothing is broken. Each individual is unique; there is no need to try to fit some kind of template of what a “man” is supposed to be, or a “woman” either mentally or physically. IMO, it’s not a matter of whether or not one “feels” that they are a man or woman. I do not feel that I am a male; I just happen to be one. I have a male body; it doesn’t affect my identity in some intrinsic. I’d still be myself if I magically turned into a female. It makes just as much sense to me to say I’m innately a brown-haired person or that I possess a brown-haired soul or identity.
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Well, then I would be dead now. When I was living as a male, I was so feminine acting I was assaulted pretty much daily in school. Three times I’ve been in the hospital for it, I didn’t even flaunt anything, I didn’t say I was gay, it was just my natural way of being. You know who always beat me? People who professed to be Christian. God didn’t want me to act that way, so I must be beaten, assaulted, mocked and teased.

Basically you’re also saying that gender doesn’t matter. If gender doesn’t matter and souls are genderless, then why all this fuss about same-sex marriages. Marriage is a union of souls, if souls have no gender as you say, then what’s the point?
 
I had to finish my last post more rapidly than desired and missed something in the process. Wanted to come back and add this…

I am not a literalist either when it comes to the creation accounts in Genesis. But the equal and opposite mistake is to relegate what’s taught in Genesis to one big fat collective symbol or myth (in the contemporary sense of the word). Pope Benedict’s book “In the Beginning” illustrates the median nature of the truth on creation quite well. And the bottom line is that the phrase “male and female He created them” is one line that *can *be taken at face value.

SK
 
Joejohn39 said:
I’d still be myself if I magically turned into a female. It makes just as much sense to me to say I’m innately a brown-haired person or that I possess a brown-haired soul or identity.
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In what sense would you “still be yourself” if you suddenly became a woman?

SK
 
Joejohn39 said:
But also it simply doesn’t make sense. Gender is a physical, biological aspect of the human being. Even the general mental differences between males and females are biological. It’s not an aspect of one’s soul anymore than race or age is.
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FWIW, I’m not so sure that’s true. I think our souls are a little more integrated with our bodies than we usually realize.

Did you see the link to the Peter Kreeft article that was posted for me earlier in this thread? If not, I would recommend going back and taking a look at it. It is pretty good and helps to “flesh” this issue out rather beautifully.

The Scripture about there being no male or female in Christ is not meant to be taken literally, it’s meant to explain that there is no superior/inferior in Christ. No preferences based on gender.

Peace,

SK
 
pathia said:
When I was living as a male, I was so feminine acting I was assaulted pretty much daily in school. Three times I’ve been in the hospital for it, I didn’t even flaunt anything, I didn’t say I was gay, it was just my natural way of being. You know who always beat me? People who professed to be Christian. God didn’t want me to act that way, so I must be beaten, assaulted, mocked and teased.
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Then it seems to me that your trauma came from being tortured by cruel and wicked people, not from yourself.
Basically you’re also saying that gender doesn’t matter. If gender doesn’t matter and souls are genderless, then why all this fuss about same-sex marriages. Marriage is a union of souls, if souls have no gender as you say, then what’s the point?
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It’s because the traditional purpose of marriage is for the procreation of children, which can only be done by biological male and a biological. I do have difficulties with the traditional prohibitions regarding erotic activity between those of the same sex; I am bisexual. But that is the argument against same sex marriage.
 
SilentKnight said:
In what sense would you “still be yourself” if you suddenly became a woman?
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My God-created soul would still be the same even with another the biological body and even the biological brain. For example, if I suffered brain damage or Alzheimer’s, my brain and behavior would change. My innate soul would not change.
 
I’m going to make an offbeat metaphoric analogy here. First don’t let the idea that this is a football analogy make you say ah ha that I’m male after all, it couldn’t be further from the truth. I happen to have had a grandmother who was a big football fan. This is comparing Catholic high school foot ball of the old days 50s and 60s. to the current attitude, toward transsexuality. First old school football was very simple, the offense plan of most Catholic highschool football coaches was push the ball up the middle, things like bumping it out and the pass were considered risky trick plays saved for desperation. If the team got behind early the game was done because push the ball up the middle didn’t score fast. So a Catholic school’s record depended on defense. If push the ball up the middle dodn’t seem to be working the coach would look for better blocking schemes to make push the ball up the middle to work. As football modernized Catholic schools came up to the times and discovered other things than push the ball up the middle like the pass, bump it out, etc etc and Catholic school teams started winning. Right now the typical Catholic attitude is Where Catholic highschool football was in the 1950s and 1960s. We are stuck in this attitude that the body makes the human being, and if the mind doesn’t conform to the body we have to find ways to make it conform to that body. Well I am here to tell you it isn’t working, not even half close. In the process there are ruined lives and suicides in the wake of that attitude. While those who don’t subscribe to the body makes everything idea are having success with people having gender issues transitioning into something better for them. I don’t subscribe to the idea of looking high and low to make certain ways of doing things work, instead I just do what works. Living as a male can’t work for me, those who want me to try to find ways to make it work, are only advocating prolonging my misery.
 
Joejohn39 said:
My God-created soul would still be the same even with another the biological body and even the biological brain. For example, if I suffered brain damage or Alzheimer’s, my brain and behavior would change. My innate soul would not change.
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To just sort of repeat what I said above, using different words…

If that were the case, I’d have to wonder how we will all identify each other in Heaven? Obviously there are aspects to the physical realm that are not matched in the spiritual (and vice versa). But suggesting that the body and soul are two completely different entities with no connections to the other other than being “physically” located in the same person prompts images of a billion blobs of light in Heaven, for example, that are all exactly the same. In what way would the be different from each other? Height? That’s a physical property. Weight/shape? Same issue. Hair color? Again…

Know what I mean?

Just tossing out some food for thought…

SK
 
SilentKnight said:
To just sort of repeat what I said above, using different words…

If that were the case, I’d have to wonder how we will all identify each other in Heaven? Obviously there are aspects to the physical realm that are not matched in the spiritual (and vice versa). But suggesting that the body and soul are two completely different entities with no connections to the other other than being “physically” located in the same person prompts images of a billion blobs of light in Heaven, for example, that are all exactly the same. In what way would the be different from each other? Height? That’s a physical property. Weight/shape? Same issue. Hair color? Again…

Know what I mean?

Just tossing out some food for thought…

SK
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I suppose, though I have to say questions of what Heaven is like don’t particularly interest me. I suppose I could be wrong about gender not existing in Heaven; it is taught that our bodies will eventually be resurrected and rejoined with our souls. However, I still think that sex/gender is a thing of the body, not the soul.
 
Joejohn39 said:
I suppose, though I have to say questions of what Heaven is like don’t particularly interest me. I suppose I could be wrong about gender not existing in Heaven; it is taught that our bodies will eventually be resurrected and rejoined with our souls. However, I still think that sex/gender is a thing of the body, not the soul.
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Sex is the physical and gender is the mind. I think sex won’t exist in heaven but gender will. Most names have a gender they fit.
 
aspawloski4th said:
Sex is the physical and gender is the mind.
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That’s the current theory, but it seems nonsensical to me. Why would the mind have some differentiation called “gender” seperate from sex? Where does this “gender” come from? How can you categorize it is as male/female when it’s not necessarily connected to physical sex?
 
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