Overemphasis of community

[puzzleannie]

COuld someone please direct me towards some solid material that counteracts the rampant overemphasis of “community” and “comunalism” that seems to have killed anything of the individual when it comes to our faith…especially the litrugy.

the liturgy is the premier celebration of the community. it is not a one-man band, and it is not a matter between me and Christ. Christ forms the community through the action of the Eucharist, and the entire liturgy surrounding it, the community which is His Mystical Body. so I am not understanding the thought behind the question. In the Mass we do NOT worship the community, we worship Christ who builds the community, and we worship as the community, in union with all Catholics in all times and places, including those in heaven and purgatory.

 

[Cat]

the liturgy is the premier celebration of the community. it is not a one-man band, and it is not a matter between me and Christ. Christ forms the community through the action of the Eucharist, and the entire liturgy surrounding it, the community which is His Mystical Body. so I am not understanding the thought behind the question. In the Mass we do NOT worship the community, we worship Christ who builds the community, and we worship as the community, in union with all Catholics in all times and places, including those in heaven and purgatory.

Thank you for this, it’s great!

It’s one of the biggest differences we have seen between Protestant and Catholic worship. In an evangelical Protestant worship service, the emphasis is upon Jesus and individuals. In the Catholic Mass, the emphasis in upon Jesus and community.

If you take away the community aspect of Mass, you move closer to a Protestant worship service.

Been there, done it, glad to be done with it.

 

[DebChris]

the liturgy is the premier celebration of the community. it is not a one-man band, and it is not a matter between me and Christ. Christ forms the community through the action of the Eucharist, and the entire liturgy surrounding it, the community which is His Mystical Body. so I am not understanding the thought behind the question. In the Mass we do NOT worship the community, we worship Christ who builds the community, and we worship as the community, in union with all Catholics in all times and places, including those in heaven and purgatory.

“so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another.” (Romans 12:5)
“because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we partake of the one loaf.” (1 Cor10:17)
We cannot separate ourselves from the community if we claim to be followers of Christ. The Church is not merely a building. It is the people of God and as the people of God we are the Body of Christ. As mentioned in an earlier post, there are two arms to the cross, one vertical and one horizontal. We worship vertically while we reach out to one another horizontally. Together we share in the cross of Christ.

 

[Walking_Home]

The object of this discussion is the problem created when the horizontal overshadows the vertical. The vertical (God) is the center of our liturgies and when the horizontal (community) emphasis misplaces our center–then as Pope Benedict said–“a liturgy which no longer looks to God is already in its death throes”.

 

[VociMike]

Thank you for this, it’s great!

It’s one of the biggest differences we have seen between Protestant and Catholic worship. In an evangelical Protestant worship service, the emphasis is upon Jesus and individuals. In the Catholic Mass, the emphasis in upon Jesus and community.

If you take away the community aspect of Mass, you move closer to a Protestant worship service.

Been there, done it, glad to be done with it.

Yeah, but nobody is talking about taking away the community aspect, only about keeping it in balance. Overemphasis (the word used by the OP) is by definition a violation of that balance.

BTW, it’s probably your Protestant background, but I think it’s more proper to say that the Mass is about God and the community. All three Persons of the Trinity.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yeah, but nobody is talking about taking away the community aspect, only about keeping it in balance. Overemphasis (the word used by the OP) is by definition a violation of that balance.

BTW, it’s probably your Protestant background, but I think it’s more proper to say that the Mass is about God and the community. All three Persons of the Trinity.

The term, “overemphasis” is subjective, especially in this forum.

Jim

 

[Soldier4Christ]

I don’t think community can be overemphasized in regard to Mass, but I think if you only emphasize community, it leads to people placing less importance on personal prayer. Everyone should spend time alone with God in prayer and silence. It is important to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but as you have all mentioned in previous posts, the community aspect of the Church is important, in fact we wouldn’t really have a Church if we didn’t have community. Balance is the key.

 

[Walking_Home]

The term, “overemphasis” is subjective, especially in this forum.

Jim

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And the more a person falls into horizonal “overemphasis” the more subjective it becomes.

 

[DebChris]

I don’t think community can be overemphasized in regard to Mass, but I think if you only emphasize community, it leads to people placing less importance on personal prayer. Everyone should spend time alone with God in prayer and silence. It is important to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but as you have all mentioned in previous posts, the community aspect of the Church is important, in fact we wouldn’t really have a Church if we didn’t have community. Balance is the key.

How else will we hear the whisper of God except in silence?
We need to strive for balance in all aspects of our life, work, and prayer.
Years ago I read a book titled Solitude. What I remember is the definition of alone as being all one (al/one). When we become comfortable being alone, with who we are, we are better able to share with others what we have and who we are.
We discover who we are within our relationship with Christ and with each other.

 

[VociMike]

The term, “overemphasis” is subjective, especially in this forum.

That’s probably true, but not really helpful to the OP.

 

[ncjohn]

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And the more a person falls into horizonal “overemphasis” the more subjective it becomes.

And yet it was the vertical overemphasis that caused Vatican II to call for reworking of the liturgy.

I would think that “out of balance” in either direction is dangerous and that we should all be striving for “Love God with your whole heart and your neighbor as yourself” as the goal. This keeps God at the center and community as vital.

Peace,

 

[VociMike]

And yet it was the vertical overemphasis that caused Vatican II to call for reworking of the liturgy.

Now see, as one with a more traditional bent, I can acknowledge that perhaps the liturgy pre-Vatican II had become out of balance. So why can’t others acknowledge that today’s liturgy may also have become out of balance?

I am highly skeptical when people essentially claim “it was wrong in the past but now it’s absolutely perfect”.

 

[Walking_Home]

And yet it was the vertical overemphasis that caused Vatican II to call for reworking of the liturgy.

I would think that “out of balance” in either direction is dangerous and that we should all be striving for “Love God with your whole heart and your neighbor as yourself” as the goal. This keeps God at the center and community as vital.

Peace,

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Yet Pope Benedict --who was at Vat II-- has this to say about the vertical.

thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/

The Full Text of Pope’s Remarks to Heiligenkreuz is available off Radio Vaticana.

"Truly it would not be presumptuous to say that, in a liturgy completely centred on God, we can see, in its rituals and chant, an image of eternity. Otherwise, how could our forefathers, hundreds of years ago, have built a sacred edifice as solemn as this? Here the architecture itself draws all our senses upwards, towards “what eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined: what God has prepared for those who love him” (1 Cor 2:9). In all our efforts on behalf of the liturgy, the determining factor must always be our looking to God. We stand before God – he speaks to us and we speak to him. Whenever in our thinking we are only concerned about making the liturgy attractive, interesting and beautiful, the battle is already lost. Either it is Opus Dei, with God as its specific subject, or it is not. In the light of this, I ask you to celebrate the sacred liturgy with your gaze fixed on God within the communion of saints, the living Church of every time and place, so that it will truly be an expression of the sublime beauty of the God who has called men and women to be his friends.

…]

… just as a liturgy which no longer looks to God is already in its death throes, so too a theology which no longer draws its life-breath from faith ceases to be theology; it ends up as a array of more or less loosely connected disciplines. But where theology is practised “on bent knee”, as Hans Urs von Balthasar (3) urged, it will prove fruitful for the Church in Austria and beyond.

 

[Cat]

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Yet Pope Benedict --who was at Vat II-- has this to say about the vertical.

thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/

The Full Text of Pope’s Remarks to Heiligenkreuz is available off Radio Vaticana.

"Truly it would not be presumptuous to say that, in a liturgy completely centred on God, we can see, in its rituals and chant, an image of eternity. Otherwise, how could our forefathers, hundreds of years ago, have built a sacred edifice as solemn as this? Here the architecture itself draws all our senses upwards, towards “what eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined: what God has prepared for those who love him” (1 Cor 2:9). In all our efforts on behalf of the liturgy, the determining factor must always be our looking to God. We stand before God – he speaks to us and we speak to him. Whenever in our thinking we are only concerned about making the liturgy attractive, interesting and beautiful, the battle is already lost. Either it is Opus Dei, with God as its specific subject, or it is not. In the light of this, I ask you to celebrate the sacred liturgy with your gaze fixed on God within the communion of saints, the living Church of every time and place, so that it will truly be an expression of the sublime beauty of the God who has called men and women to be his friends.
…]

… just as a liturgy which no longer looks to God is already in its death throes, so too a theology which no longer draws its life-breath from faith ceases to be theology; it ends up as a array of more or less loosely connected disciplines. But where theology is practised “on bent knee”, as Hans Urs von Balthasar (3) urged, it will prove fruitful for the Church in Austria and beyond.

It’s a wonderful quote and I thank you for posting it.

However, I think that your emphasis upon “with your gaze fixed upon God” was out of context. I have bold-faced the rest of the Pope’s sentence, which makes it clear that Mass is not an occasion for individual worship of Our Lord.

We gaze upon God along with our Christian brothers and sisters, not in spite of them.

I would challenge us all to not only worship with the Church Militant, here on earth, but to also remember that Mass includes the Church Triumphant, those in heaven. I’m not sure about the Church Suffering, but I do know that many Masses are said for those who have passed on, so I think it is appropriate and good to remember in the Mass the poor souls in Purgatory.

 

[Walking_Home]

Originally Posted by Walking_Home
Yet Pope Benedict --who was at Vat II-- has this to say about the vertical.

"Truly it would not be presumptuous to say that, in a liturgy completely centred on God, we can see, in its rituals and chant, an image of eternity. Otherwise, how could our forefathers, hundreds of years ago, have built a sacred edifice as solemn as this? Here the architecture itself draws all our senses upwards, towards “what eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined: what God has prepared for those who love him” (1 Cor 2:9). In all our efforts on behalf of the liturgy, the determining factor must always be our looking to God. We stand before God – he speaks to us and we speak to him. Whenever in our thinking we are only concerned about making the liturgy attractive, interesting and beautiful, the battle is already lost. Either it is Opus Dei, with God as its specific subject, or it is not. In the light of this, I ask you to celebrate the sacred liturgy with your gaze fixed on God within the communion of saints, the living Church of every time and place, so that it will truly be an expression of the sublime beauty of the God who has called men and women to be his friends.
…]

… just as a liturgy which no longer looks to God is already in its death throes, so too a theology which no longer draws its life-breath from faith ceases to be theology; it ends up as a array of more or less loosely connected disciplines. But where theology is practised “on bent knee”, as Hans Urs von Balthasar (3) urged, it will prove fruitful for the Church in Austria and beyond.

It’s a wonderful quote and I thank you for posting it.

However, I think that your emphasis upon “with your gaze fixed upon God” was out of context. I have bold-faced the rest of the Pope’s sentence, which makes it clear that Mass is not an occasion for individual worship of Our Lord.

We gaze upon God along with our Christian brothers and sisters, not in spite of them.

I would challenge us all to not only worship with the Church Militant, here on earth, but to also remember that Mass includes the Church Triumphant, those in heaven. I’m not sure about the Church Suffering, but I do know that many Masses are said for those who have passed on, so I think it is appropriate and good to remember in the Mass the poor souls in Purgatory.

It’s a wonderful quote and I thank you for posting it.

However, I think that your emphasis upon “with your gaze fixed upon God” was out of context. I have bold-faced the rest of the Pope’s sentence, which makes it clear that Mass is not an occasion for individual worship of Our Lord.

We gaze upon God along with our Christian brothers and sisters, not in spite of them.

I would challenge us all to not only worship with the Church Militant, here on earth, but to also remember that Mass includes the Church Triumphant, those in heaven. I’m not sure about the Church Suffering, but I do know that many Masses are said for those who have passed on, so I think it is appropriate and good to remember in the Mass the poor souls in Purgatory.

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Oh come on now. You know very well where the emphasis of what I posted is on. It is our Pope himself putting the focus of the liturgy in its proper place—vertical to God. We as a community in unity with the angels, the Saints, and all who now recide in heaven–offer worship to He who is our center —our Lord and God. So please don’t invent ways of putting words in my mouth I didn’t say.

 

[ncjohn]

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Oh come on now. You know very well where the emphasis of what I posted is on. It is our Pope himself putting the focus of the liturgy in its proper place—vertical to God. We as a community in unity with the angels, the Saints, and all who now recide in heaven–offer worship to He who is our center —our Lord and God. So please don’t invent ways of putting words in my mouth I didn’t say.

Yes, she obviously did understand where you were putting the emphasis and was most certainly not trying to put words in your mouth.

What she was saying, which I fully agree with, is that you left out the other half of the sentence which creates the exact balance I addressed in my post, that we worship WITH the communion of saints, etc–the community.

Are you saying that there is NO horizontal element involved? That this statement by the Pope, which affirms the statements of Vatican II, is incorrect and that we don’t worship in community?

I’m not really sure if you’re disagreeing with me or not, though I think you are…or at least I think you think you are. I’m not challenging the vertical center of our worship at all and fully agree with you on that. If you are saying that there is no horizontal component though, I will stand with the Church and disagree there.

Peace,

 

[Walking_Home]

Yes, she obviously did understand where you were putting the emphasis and was most certainly not trying to put words in your mouth.

What she was saying, which I fully agree with, is that you left out the other half of the sentence which creates the exact balance I addressed in my post, that we worship WITH the communion of saints, etc–the community.

Are you saying that there is NO horizontal element involved? That this statement by the Pope, which affirms the statements of Vatican II, is incorrect and that we don’t worship in community?

I’m not really sure if you’re disagreeing with me or not, though I think you are…or at least I think you think you are. I’m not challenging the vertical center of our worship at all and fully agree with you on that. If you are saying that there is no horizontal component though, I will stand with the Church and disagree there.

Peace,

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We worship as a community–but the focus of the community worship is to God. That is the emphasis to the vertical–which our Pope so well explained. The horizontal element (us) turns towards Him who is our Lord and God.

If you go back to review my prior posts – I have not implyed we do not come together as a community—but that the focus of the community’s liturgical worship is centered on God and not on the community itself.

 

[ncjohn]

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We worship as a community–but the focus of the community worship is to God. That is the emphasis to the vertical–which our Pope so well explained. The horizontal element (us) turns towards Him who is our Lord and God.

**If you go back to review my prior posts – I have not implyed we do not come together as a community—but that the focus of the community’s liturgical worship is centered on God and not on the community itself./**QUOTE]

Ok, then we are in agreement, as I thought we were when I did my post originally. That leaves me a little confused as to whether you thought you saw some disagreement when you posted in quoting me, but I’ll just leave it to rest since it appears we aren’t in disagreement.

 

[Walking_Home]

------------------------------------------------------------------------

We worship as a community–but the focus of the community worship is to God. That is the emphasis to the vertical–which our Pope so well explained. The horizontal element (us) turns towards Him who is our Lord and God.

If you go back to review my prior posts – I have not implyed we do not come together as a community—but that the focus of the community’s liturgical worship is centered on God and not on the community itself./

QUOTE]

Ok, then we are in agreement, as I thought we were when I did my post originally. That leaves me a little confused as to whether you thought you saw some disagreement when you posted in quoting me, but I’ll just leave it to rest since it appears we aren’t in disagreement.

Quote=ncjohn
And yet it was the vertical overemphasis that caused Vatican II to call for reworking of the liturgy.

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I guess the confusion came in with your statement above. It came across as conflicting with our Pope’s statements on liturgies being completely centered on God. But as you said–lets leave it to rest–since we both I believe – agree with the Pope.

 

[Cat]

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We worship as a community–but the focus of the community worship is to God. That is the emphasis to the vertical–which our Pope so well explained. The horizontal element (us) turns towards Him who is our Lord and God.

If you go back to review my prior posts – I have not implyed we do not come together as a community—but that the focus of the community’s liturgical worship is centered on God and not on the community itself.

Yes, I absolutely agree with this. The Church should not be a “positive thinking organization.” It is the Church, the Body of Christ. There are plenty of bars out in the world; we should offer more than a “place where everybody knows your name,” although I don’t think it would be a bad thing if we knew everybody’s name in our parishes!

Walking_Home, I think you have a disagreement with me and you are determined to find fault with everything I say. I’m sorry you feel that way. Perhaps you should not read the names of the posters until you have read the post, and that might help you to see that I don’t have a hidden liberal agenda and I am not trying to undermine the Church. I consider myself a very conservative Catholic, and whenever one of those cute “quizzes” comes up on CAF, I take it and always end up in the “conservative, traditional Catholic” category. Get to know me (on this CAF Board, of course) and you’ll see what I mean.