Overlay vrs. underlay stoles

[Lapey]

You asked for a citation from the Church’s liturgical norms about whether the stole goes over or under the chasuble/dalmatic. Benedictgal and I both provided the GIRM that says clearly that the stole goes under the chasuble/dalmatic. Then you respond by saying (in effect) that it doesn’t matter–you’re prepared to do the opposite of what the GIRM says.

If it doesn’t matter to you what the GIRM says, then why ask the question in the first place?

Father, all due respect, please note my consession speach, my last post. I appreciate your passion! Thanks for your help.

 

[Lapey]

However, if you look at the deacons assisting at the Papal Masses, they don’t wear their stoles over their dalmatics. In fact, none of the concelebrants (who are often cardinals and bishops) wear their stoles on the outside. It’s not as simplistic as some may think. Just because something is “accepted” that does not mean that it is right.

I hear ya gal…thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[PacoG]

Ok…From reading your original posting, your reason for wearing your stole over your dalmatic is that your priest bought you a plain, unadorned white dalmatic that you wear with a stole of the season (green, violet, white, gold, red, etc.).

I have some solutions:

1. Have your wife or one of the ladies of the parish sew you interchangeable adornments for the dalmatic in the colors of the seasons. For lack of a better term, a yoke that fits over your head and hands down the front and back of the vestment or a decoration that affixes with velcro to the front and back of you dalmatic would be one solution.
2. If there is someone in the diocese who is good at sewing, ask them to make you dalmatics in the other liturgical colors. Provide them with the materials.

 

[Lapey]

Ok…From reading your original posting, your reason for wearing your stole over your dalmatic is that your priest bought you a plain, unadorned white dalmatic that you wear with a stole of the season (green, violet, white, gold, red, etc.).

I have some solutions:

1. Have your wife or one of the ladies of the parish sew you interchangeable adornments for the dalmatic in the colors of the seasons. For lack of a better term, a yoke that fits over your head and hands down the front and back of the vestment or a decoration that affixes with velcro to the front and back of you dalmatic would be one solution.
2. If there is someone in the diocese who is good at sewing, ask them to make you dalmatics in the other liturgical colors. Provide them with the materials.

I appreciate your suggestions, here are my thoughts.

I was planning to purchase other vestmants with money donated for my ordination by my local K of C council (thanks very much council 5013!!!)

I have a plain white dalmatic that can be worn for Christmas and Easter seasons with the gold or white under stole, so I will purchase a green and violet for ordinary, lent and advent seasons. With these I can wear the stoles my pastor bought under the dalmatics. As far as the red and rose, i will just wear the stole over the alb without a dalmatic; at least untill I can purchase other dalmatics.

That was my orriginal plan before my pastor insisted that I wear the stoles over the white dalmatic.

PS. I like plain and unadorned.

 

[TheMc]

I appreciate your suggestions, here are my thoughts.

I was planning to purchase other vestmants with money donated for my ordination by my local K of C council (thanks very much council 5013!!!)

I have a plain white dalmatic that can be worn for Christmas and Easter seasons with the gold or white under stole, so I will purchase a green and violet for ordinary, lent and advent seasons. With these I can wear the stoles my pastor bought under the dalmatics. As far as the red and rose, i will just wear the stole over the alb without a dalmatic; at least untill I can purchase other dalmatics.

Wonderful! I really love seeing deacons in dalmatics, even though I don’t see it much. I think it looks wonderful! Keep up the good work!

I would, however, suggest that you respectfully bring up this with your pastor, and tell him about the documents, and what the church has asked.

Keep it up!

 

[TheMc]

1. Have your wife or one of the ladies of the parish sew you interchangeable adornments for the dalmatic in the colors of the seasons. For lack of a better term, a yoke that fits over your head and hands down the front and back of the vestment or a decoration that affixes with velcro to the front and back of you dalmatic would be one solution.

Creative, but probably not such a good idea. Anyways, I think there’s a document where it says that vestments should not be interchangeable, but just one color.

 

[drforjc]

As simple as it may seem it all turns on the placement of the comma.

“The vestment of the deacon is the dalmatic, over the alb and stole” is different from “The vestment of the deacon is the dalmatic, over the alb, and stole.”

As to what drives people to abuse the liturgy? For many it’s just what you are doing, going along with what they’ve seen done, either because they don’t know any better or because they are not willing to stand up and say “I’m not doing that because it flies in the face of rubrics.” For others, it’s the hubris of believing they know better, plain and simple.

I once brought up the fact that we were, against all the rules, using EMHCs to distribute Communion in my parish while the 2 concelebrants sat and watched. The pastor got very upset and said that Redemptionis Sacramentum had not been implemented in our diocese and I shouldn’t be quoting from it. I replied that RS, in this case as in much of what it contains, was not imposing a new rule but was simply restating what had already been said in three previous documents, starting with the one that allowed EMCHs in the first place. The assistant pastor (who had long ago been the pastor’s seminary professor) got up, shook his finger in my face and yelled “We’ve never paid attention to those documents before, we’re not about to start now!” THAT’S the kind of hubris that leads someone to abuse the liturgy.

What’s really sad is that someone can ignore a legitimate command from a legitmate superior under the excuse that RS was not “implemented” in his diocese. Since when does a subordinate decide that he (even if he is a bishop, given that RS came from the Holy See itself) does or does not have to obey a direct order??

 

[PacoG]

Creative, but probably not such a good idea. Anyways, I think there’s a document where it says that vestments should not be interchangeable, but just one color.

Please show us which document says that the adornments on vestments can’t be interchangeable.

 

[TheMc]

I can’t seem to find it, but this is also a common sense thing, as well as practicality:

If the official color of the vestment should be the primary color of a vestment, then that means any changeable parts would have make up much of the vestment, then why try and mess with this, and just do a little extra work and make separate vestments. It also seems very tacky to make “interchangeable” vestments like this.

Does anybody know where the document reference is? I know it exists, but I can’t find it anywhere.

 

[Chatter163]

Don’t you feel we concentrate on the mondain and try to make it more than it should be?

I only know a *mondain *to be a man who moves in fashionable society. Is this what you are talking about here?

 

[Lapey]

I only know a *mondain *to be a man who moves in fashionable society. Is this what you are talking about here?

Excuse me, didn’t realize along with Liturgy police we have spelling police. You know what I was saying, mundane. Thanks, your addition to the thread is well needed.

You hav a grate daye!