Overnight Travel as a Dating Couple

[kindofcatholic]

Greetings!

Background: I have been dating a girl for a few months now. Things are going very well. The feelings are getting strong and we both agree we have a strong potential for a lifelong partnership. We are in our mid-20s. She has been a hardcore Catholic her entire life. I was raised catholic in my early childhood. Then when I was age 12 my parents and I moved, but never got involved with a new church. Since then I have been a non-practicing catholic. Now that I am dating this girl I am starting to revisit Catholicism, yet I find that I have developed my own opinions about God and faith in my time away from Catholicism.

My girlfriend and I talk a lot about the travel we intend to do as a couple. We have an ongoing debate about overnight sleeping arrangements. Here are two potential situations:

1. My girlfriend and I are going on a remote camping/backpacking trip. Thus, it is only practical to take one tent. Is it a problem for us to sleep in the same tent? If so, why?
2. My girlfriend and I go on an overnight trip to a big city. Hotel rooms cost $150/night. Is it necessary to spend $300 for two hotel rooms? If so, why?

My girlfriend and I have agreed to disagree on this topic, and it has since turned into a fun ongoing debate.

I think very much in terms of logic, efficiency, and reason. My opinion is that we are adults who are perfectly capable of controlling our actions. Let’s share a hotel room or tent, sparing the added expense or pack weight. I share hotel rooms and tents with my guy friends all the time. Why is it different just because we are a dating couple? My girlfriend and I spend a lot of time curled up together on my couch watching movies. How is sharing a hotel room or tent any different?

My girlfriend says sharing a room or tent is a terrible idea, because making an exception to traditional dating practice once will lead to more exceptions and eventually spiral out of control.

Naturally, I respect her position. Whenever we travel or go camping I will bite my tongue and just carry that second tent or spend the money on that second hotel room. Still, it would make it easier for me if I could understand her perspective better. Can anyone here offer some insight/opinions on the questions above?

Thanks!

 

[Vico]

…My girlfriend and I spend a lot of time curled up together on my couch watching movies. How is sharing a hotel room or tent any different?
…

We are called to avoid a near and voluntary occasion of sin and also not to lead others into sin (to give scandal), even by actions which are not sinful for us. St. Paul gave an example with eating offerings made to idols:

1 Cor 8

3 But if one loves God, one is known by him. 4 Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” 5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.10 For if any one sees you, a man of knowledge, at table in an idol’s temple, might he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? 11 And so by your knowledge this weak man is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. 12 Thus, sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food is a cause of my brother’s falling, I will never eat meat, lest I cause my brother to fall.

 

[Mtatum1958]

Glad you think it is a fun debate and you respect her wishes. Nothing I say will help you understand her beliefs; continue the dialog. I will say there is a difference on being on the sofa together and in a hotel room or tent. Perhaps she is avoiding the near occasion of sin (avoiding situations that could lead to temptation),

In your 20’s? An additional backpacking tent adds little for a weekend outing. I’m sure you or she can manage easily. Motel? Look for alternatives.

 

[1ke]

Can anyone here offer some insight/opinions on the questions above?

This is, in general a prudential matter.

Your girlfriend may not think it is prudent, or that it will be a temptation for her.

As I said, in general a prudential matter, for a specifical person or couple it might be an occasion of sin, or a temptation.

And lastly, your girlfriend may also want her space and not feel comfortable sharing with a guy in close quarters at this stage. She may want to be able to have a space of her own when traveling. Modesty may play a role as might not wanting her personal routine on display at this point in the relationship, or you know… she might want her private bathroom time to be just that.

 

[pensmama87]

In addition to the points above, I would suggest that even if it’s not how you would do things, respecting your girlfriend’s wishes shows respect for her. You may think it’s a “fun debate,” and maybe it is for her too, but when push comes to shove, I would not necessarily think that trying to get her to set aside her boundaries is good boyfriend behavior. It’s actually a red flag young women are taught to look out for.

 

[TheLittleLady]

My girlfriend says sharing a room or tent is a terrible idea, because making an exception to traditional dating practice once will lead to more exceptions and eventually spiral out of control.

Listen to your girlfriend. Respect and treasure her purity. Really, is virtue worth buying a $50 second tent or a $100 motel room?

Also, I’d make these group events, Take others along. There is something amazingly romantic and special about having that wedding night be your first night alone together, even a simple “honeymoon” as your first trip alone together.

 

[kindofcatholic]

Thanks for the insight. Hopefully I do not sound defensive here. I am not in any way trying to convince her to set aside her boundaries. I am only trying to understand why her boundaries are in place as a way to know her better. As I said in my first post, when push comes to shove, I fully intend to bite my tongue if I don’t learn to see it her way first.

 

[1ke]

I am only trying to understand why her boundaries are in place as a way to know her better.

It comes down to the sixth commandment and also to cultivating virtue: prudence, modesty, charity, chastity, purity, temperance, and others in pursuit of holiness.

When one matures spiritually, it isn’t simply about a list of “don’ts“ but rather the active cultivation of sanctity and holiness, the pursuit of virtue in the choices we make.

 

[kindofcatholic]

I think you are on to something here. She did mention near occasion of sin when we were talking about it. Please help me to understand further. Is this just a case where each person needs to set their own boundaries in terms of what constitutes near occasion of sin with no definitive right or wrong answer?

For example:

Me:

1. Curled up together on the couch watching movies. . . We are two adults who are perfectly capable of controlling our actions. Therefore there is no near occasion of sin.
2. Sharing a tent . . . We are two adults who are perfectly capable of controlling our actions. Therefore there is no near occasion of sin.

Her:

1. Curled up together on the couch watching movies. . . We are two adults who are perfectly capable of controlling our actions. Therefore there is no near occasion of sin.
2. Sharing a tent . . . This is voluntarily putting myself in a position of strong temptation. Therefore this is a near occasion of sin and should be avoided.

In other words, while I don’t see any difference whatsoever between sharing a tent and being curled up on the couch watching a movie, she does. We are both equally correct, and need to respect each other’s boundaries and opinions without further question?

 

[Vico]

…

For scandal, the Catechism of the Catholic Church shows how evil is done through example. To say “We are two adults who are perfectly capable of controlling our actions.” is fine, but will you and others all exercise control?

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

It has to be an exercise in prudence. The Baltimore Catechism gave examples:

Q. 774. How many kinds of occasions of sin are there?

A. There are four kinds of occasions of sin:

1. Near occasions, through which we always fall;
2. Remote occasions, through which we sometimes fall;
3. Voluntary occasions or those we can avoid; and
4. Involuntary occasions or those we cannot avoid.

A person who lives in a near and voluntary occasion of sin need not expect forgiveness while he continues in that state.

Q. 775. What persons, places and things are usually occasions of sin?

A.

1. The persons who are occasions of sin are all those in whose company we sin, whether they be bad of themselves or bad only while in our company, in which case we also become occasions of sin for them;
2. The places are usually liquor saloons, low theaters, indecent dances, entertainments, amusements,
   exhibitions, and all immoral resorts of any kind, whether we sin in them or not;
3. The things are all bad books, indecent pictures, songs, jokes and the like, even when they are tolerated by public opinion and found in public places.

 

[Mtatum1958]

All the more reason for discussion and dialog with her. Sharing your thoughts, and feelings about varied situations will serve to deepen your understanding and the relationship.

 

[Clementine14]

In addition to the points above, I would suggest that even if it’s not how you would do things, respecting your girlfriend’s wishes shows respect for her. You may think it’s a “fun debate,” and maybe it is for her too, but when push comes to shove, I would not necessarily think that trying to get her to set aside her boundaries is good boyfriend behavior. It’s actually a red flag young women are taught to look out for.

Yes, all of this. When we were dating, I had more boundaries about these kinds of things and my husband did not really agree or understand, but he always respected my wishes and did not try to engage me in a debate or change my mind. Honestly, if he had I would have been much less attracted to him and probably would have broken up with him. It doesn’t matter what your opinion is, because no means no. If she says no sex, and you are okay with that and don’t try to debate with her about why she should sleep with you, then why push on her other boundaries?

It’s great that you are trying to understand her perspective, as long as you are not going to use it to try to argue more about it with her. Are you sure she thinks it is a “fun debate”, or does she get tired of having to defend her “no” to you all the time?

We did not really travel as a couple before marriage, except for day trips. That made our honeymoon more special, because it was our first actual vacation together. Maybe try doing more things locally, and save the traveling for marriage.

 

[QwertyGirl]

In my opinion, your reasoning is 100% right. However, you win the bonus round, because you are also 100% right in giving into your girlfriend’s wishes, carrying that extra tent and ditching the budget for the extra hotel room.

When I read that you do those things, I became convinced you are a wonderful boyfriend. The morality doesn’t really matter, because I don’t think you were suggesting the two of you do anything inmmoral. However the expression of your generosity of spirit by giving in matters a bunch. Good on you!

 

[kindofcatholic]

I should clarify my (perhaps incorrect) use of the word “debate.” Allow me to redefine as “debate with intent to understand” not with intent to argue or change her mind. No means no, and I understand that.

Are you sure she thinks it is a “fun debate”, or does she get tired of having to defend her “no” to you all the time?

This is exactly what I am trying to avoid. The fact is, after talking with her very openly about this subject on a few different occasions, I still do not understand her point of view. I don’t want to keep pressing and asking her to repeat or elaborate on her explanation for fear that she will think I am arguing when really I just want to understand. Imagine seeing a sign in a dog walking park that says “Labrador retrievers okay, golden retrievers prohibited.” You would probably want to know the reason for such a rule. That is how this subject of watching movies on the couch versus sharing a tent/hotel room looks to me.

The fact is my girlfriend is a wonderful girl, and I’m lucky to have her. I thank God daily for making her a part of my life. I started this thread because I want to understand her and be the best boyfriend I can be. This “debate” started when I made the incorrect assumption that since she was fine with curling up on the couch to watch movies she would also be fine with sharing a tent or hotel room - not the case at all. If I can understand why her boundaries are where they are it will help me to avoid making incorrect assumptions in the future.

 

[Clementine14]

I don’t want to keep pressing and asking her to repeat or elaborate on her explanation for fear that she will think I am arguing when really I just want to understand.

That’s good- you don’t have to keep asking her about it. She has tried explaining it to you, and you don’t understand. That’s okay- you don’t really need to understand, you just need to respect her, which it sounds like you are doing. But if you keep pressing the issue, she is not going to feel like you’re respecting her wishes.

Your girlfriend feels that she can watch movies with you on the couch, but not sleep with you overnight. Those two things are different in my mind, too. Sleeping together is a very intimate thing, even if there is nothing else “physical” going on.

You mentioned that you don’t want to make “incorrect assumptions” in the future, so I recommend not assuming anything. Just decide what you are and are not okay with (for instance, will you be okay with her not wanting to live together before you marry, if it comes to that?), and respect her decisions. If she says something doesn’t feel right to her, it’s okay to ask her to explain, but don’t push the issue. It can easily cross a line and make her uncomfortable if she feels like she is always having to defend her decisions to you. The bottom line is really that she doesn’t need any reason at all not to want to share a hotel room with you. You can decide to live with that or not, but there’s no point in trying to debate about it.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

part of not yielding to temptation is to avoid being in that position to begin with.

 

[QwertyGirl]

If I can understand why her boundaries are where they are it will help me to avoid making incorrect assumptions in the future.

Is she a person who worries about what “people will think”? It may be nothing more than that. She may worry that people will get the impression that you sleep together if you share a hotel or a tent. It is sort of old-fashioned, but there are those people who still are quite concerned about this.

Again, I don’t know that it really matters. What matters is that she has communicated to you what makes her comfrotable, and you go the extra effort to see that she is (comfortable)

 

[SacredHeartBassist]

By the look of some of these answers you’d think we were on Amish forums. Anyway just ask for a separate bed for the hotel. If you guys aren’t gonna do it you’ll be good. I think the lord knows your intentions. Don’t worry so much about what people may think. After all many people are crazy anyway

 

[pensmama87]

I think the point is not to push the girlfriend to do something she’s uncomfortable with. The OP being sensitive to that is a very good sign - it shows that even if he doesn’t understand or agree he doesn’t think he has a right to override her objections.

 

[Paul71]

I think that for most young unmarried couples who are trying to be chaste before marriage, sleeping in the same room or in the same tent on an overnight trip would provide a very strong temptation to engage in sexual sin. Thinking back on my own experience of being young and single, I think that even taking an overnight trip together with separate tents or separate hotel rooms would have been too much of a temptation. I would recommend that you save the overnight trips until after you are married.