Overpopulation thread: how many planets does your lifestyle require?

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That means that you’re using land that could be used to grow food for humans to grow food for cattle, and since they’re higher on the energy flow pyramid it means less food for humans in the end (the cattle doesn’t compensate for the loss of land where food for humans could be grown). By the way I’m not a rabid vegan, just an informed omnivore.
Actually, his point was that much cattle feed comes from the material from human-feeding crops that is inedible to humans. Cattle, with their four stomachs and the bacteria living inside them, can digest that plant material. So land cultivated for human crops also produces feed for livestock. I know some perfectly good human food is fed to livestock, but not all, and that’s not a requirement. Raising livestock on an organic and self-sustaining farm is a more efficient use of resources than ignoring livestock because you use “waste” crop material to feed livestock (providing the dietary benefit of eggs, milk, and meat), while allowing the rooting behavior and manure of various forms of livestock to give back to the land (for crops) in a more complete nutrient cycle.

That’s assuming arable, rain-fed land. There are vast swathes of land that are NOT fit for the raising of many crops and are much more efficiently used as grazing land. Consider arid steppelands of the North American West, highlands of the British Isles, and great steppes of Asia.
 
From your article, Sailor:

Extreme population control advocates like those here who want to actually reduce current population by billions cannot help but promote a drastic version of the population myth that will only aid and abet these vile ideas. The only way to consciously slash the population so drastically is through rejecting God and embracing contraception and murder.
Amen and may God have mercy.

Soon the Gaia-worshippers will get their wish: this anti-life ‘health’ care bill will be rammed down the throats of an unwilling population, which will soon be controlled via abortion, euthanasia, and rationed care.

Our Lady of Guadalupe, pray for us!
 
online.wsj.com/article/SB125189057895179241.html

“BP PLC announced a major new oil find in the Gulf of Mexico, the latest in a string of discoveries there that cements the offshore waters of the southern U.S. as one of the oil world’s most promising exploration regions.”

"As new technologies have enabled exploration in the deepest recesses of the Gulf, nearly a dozen discoveries, including BP’s Tiber, have been made beneath nearly two miles of water.’

““If you are looking for another opportunity of that scale that is oil and that is open to [Western oil companies], the Santos Basin of Brazil is the only other one in the world,” said Andrew Latham, a vice president of global exploration services for consultant Wood Mackenzie.”

“**Other recent finds **in Uganda, Kurdistan and off the coast of Ghana are estimated to be several billion barrels of oil, while the Gulf of Mexico and Brazil contain “tens of billions of barrels,” he said.”

Seriously, do a little research. That was low-hanging fruit from a quick “new oil discoveries” search query in Google. Look deeper and I’m sure you’ll find more.

Yes, it’s expensive to extract, and yes, current technologies can only extract so much, but prices still make it quite economically feasible and rewarding, and technology has consistently progressed to allow greater degrees of oil recovery.

Oh, and then there’s this possibility:
wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59991
“Discovery backs theory oil not ‘fossil fuel’
New evidence supports premise that Earth produces endless supply”

The point is that oil keeps being discovered, on land and at sea. As a percentage of surface area, we’ve hardly even begun to look for oil. Of course, we’d have looked for and tapped much more in the U.S. if it weren’t for government regulations–and that’s where you get a major complicating factor in the whole idea of “Peak Oil.” Peak Oil is an attempt to extrapolate a known phenomenon within a single oil reserve that extraction efficiency declines after a certain point. The problem is that that concept can’t just be extracted to a world oil supply, because it cannot factor in the addition of new production facilities or the myriad pressures of supply and demand, a huge part of which is dictated by politics–stability/war, treaties, taxes, regulations, and bans.

And yes, as you pointed out earlier, StA, fertilizers and fuels can be synthesized with other sources of energy, not requiring petroleum or natural gas. The cheapest other sources is coal (even clean coal), of which I hope you agree that we easily have many centuries’ supply. But we’ll have transitioned away from that long before existing capital investments in natural gas and oil extraction fail to produce. Instead, we’ll have renewables such as wind, solar, tidal, and geothermal, which last is my personal favorite:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_energy

I’d call that pretty abundant, easily abundant enough to synthesize some fuel and fertilizer.

I will agree that there will be supply fluctuations over the next century, as there are in all transitions of infrastructure and technology, with price of energy potentially rising to a higher proportion of expenses, but so what? Such fluctuations happen all the time; change is a part of nature, human and otherwise.
Along the lines of new oil supplies are being discovered all the time.

The other day this article came in the Heartland October 2009 newsletter:

heartland.org/publications/environment%20climate/article/25957/New_North_Dakota_Oil_Find_Could_Be_a_Gusher.html

New North Dakota oil find is currently estimated at 400 billion barrels, which is larger than Saudi Arabia’s proven reserves and 10 times larger than the current proven reserves of the United States.

New sources of oil (and natural gas) being discovered all the time.
 
Wow, that IS huge.
Peak Oil in Doubt
The Bakken and Three Forks-Sanish oil fields, along with enormous oil shale deposits in Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming, are shredding assertions that the United States and the globe as a whole are facing a “peak oil” crisis.
Peak oil warnings have come and gone for well over a century, in fact. A 2003 National Center for Policy Analysis report by geologist David Deming noted the first prediction of peak oil and impending exhaustion occurred in 1855, before the first oil well was ever drilled.
Deming also notes seven oil shortage scares occurred prior to 1950. But proven reserves have increased faster than depletion because of new oil field discoveries and technological innovations that allow extraction of previously unrecoverable oil.
And guess what? “Economic feasibility” increases all the time. Technology improves to make more things economically-feasible at current prices. And, if we really do start having shortages, price will naturally go up, which will make recovery of a lot more economically feasible. If oil really does hit and stay above $150 a barrel, imagine how much oil will be feasible to extract?

If such a thing happens, a greater portion of our expenditures may shift to energy, but that doesn’t mean we’re running out by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course, government will probably intervene to prevent us from developing oil resources, even with very low footprint, ecologically-responsible methods. Government will *continue *to cause artificially high prices and low production.
 
Case Study #4.

Have you ever heard of the Jones Act?

Any cargo that goes by boat interstate within the United States must be shipped on U.S. built and U.S. flagged ships.

Alaska has for 40 years been shipping liquified natural gas to Japan.

NOW, the Federal government has decided to deny Alaska an export license for the liquified natural gas because they say we need the LNG here in the USA.

HOWEVER, there are no U.S. build LNG ships to transport the LNG to the south 48.

And, on the West Coast, there are no LNG import facilities that could accept the Alaskan LNG.

So, what will happen is that NO BODY will get the Alaska natural gas and there will be a lot of Alaskan unemployment as the people who work at the Alaskan facilities will be thrown out of work.
 
Apparently, our Federal government in its infinite wisdom changed its mind and will now continue to allow Alaska to export liquid natural gas to Japan.

[Would someone explain to me why we need the Federal government making these kinds of decisions, screwing up the economy, AND us having to pay very nice comfy salaries, fringe benefits and retirement plans for the bureaucrats who are causing all the problems?]

Just close down these bureaucratic agencies.

They are causing too much damage that we can no longer afford.

Just close them down and let the bureaucrats find real jobs.
 
I think this is a bit of bunk…it says “assuming everyone lives the same as you”…well, not everyone CAN live the same way!! Public transportation? Ha! No such thing where I live…unless you count Amtrak, which barely goes anywhere and only once a day (overnight). Recycling? There are no facilities where I live, except for newspaper. But I do agree that I should start recycling newspaper.

Smart car? I don’t think so. I got a Honda Civic and am trying to sell it because I needed a 4-wheel drive pickup for the icy roads (and for pulling my horse trailer…no, wait…I better not have a horse…I should just kill her because she contributes to greenhouse gases).

Don’t even get me started on eating meat. I grew up raising animals for meat and continue to live in an area where beef, oil, and wheat are King. Take those away and no more community.

I probably sound like some kind of a redneck hillbilly, but I guess there could be a shred of truth to that description. The ultra-liberal super-eco green freaks sometimes fail to realize that rural people can’t necessarily live up to their “green” standards.

On second thought, I suppose I could get rid of my running water and electricity…
 
I probably sound like some kind of a redneck hillbilly, QUOTE]

No you don’t

the original OP is just talking nonsense

There is plenty of room on this planet for everyone

Do we want to live in a pig sty or do we want to be a bit selfless and do our fairshare of house cleaning.

There could be cleaner running cars but there isnt. There is a lot of things that could be different if the powers that be want it. All the greeny **** about what we should and shouldn’t do just makes me puke.
 
If I get my information from reliable sources, then a lot of the world will experience a population collapse that will be catastrophic due to low birth rates. Looking at Europe will show why. A lot of the countries are experiencing below replacement level birthrates. Thankfully, the U.S. has a bunch of immigrants that keep us from dropping below 2.1.

I probably posted this before, but I will again. Overpopulationisamyth.com has a great video talking about overpopulation (and do not worry the founder of PRI institute, of which overpopulationisamyth.com is a project, was a priest pop.org/20090117804/our-founder).

I am so sick of listening to this green living nonsense. People will ALWAYS be more important than animals. I find the idea of taxing carbon credits to be of great sin. Why make the poor poorer because some THEORY says so? If these politicians’ goals were to save the planet and its animals, why are they not buying up habitats?

We may not live during the worst times in history, but the time we are living in has to rank up there as some of the craziest.😃 Spending millions of dollars on cow farts is pure craziness.👍
 
Quiz is here: earthday.net/footprint/flash.html

Overpopulation is an interesting topic.

While physically there is enough room on the planet for more people, there already isn’t enough room to provide everyone with the kind of lifestyle Westerners enjoy.

We would need several Earths for every single person living today to have the kind of lifestyle we in the West have.

There are online calculators that attempt to measure just how many planets your lifestyle would require. They do this by calculating the amount of area needed to support an activity. For example if you eat meat, it would take into account the amount of land, water, energy and other resources needed to raise the animals you get meat from.

According to this quiz earthday.net/footprint/flash.html my lifestyle would require 4.4 planet earths if everyone currently alive were to have the same way of life.

What do you think is the moral solution to this issue? Should we control population growth so that everyone in the world could have a good lifestyle, or should Westerners experience a big reduction in quality of life to be able to have more people on the planet and a more fair distribution of resources.
I think it’s wrong to control population growth but we should control our consumer habits. When I went to a Caritas conference (called Cafod here) we found out that a person living in Africa makes 1/100th of the ecological footprint of a person living in Britain. The conference leader also told us Great Britain emits as much pollution as the whole of the African continent. So if we adopted an African lifestyle a lot more people could live on the planet.
 
I think it’s wrong to control population growth but we should control our consumer habits. When I went to a Caritas conference (called Cafod here) we found out that a person living in Africa makes 1/100th of the ecological footprint of a person living in Britain. The conference leader also told us Great Britain emits as much pollution as the whole of the African continent. So if we adopted an African lifestyle a lot more people could live on the planet.
Hmmm, which PART of Africa. Africa is a pretty large continent. Should be live as tribesmen? Warriors? Rebels? Insurgents? Ship pirates? In a city in South Africa? Ethiopia? Sudan? Rwanda? Algeria? seems to me those people all live differently, even from each other.

Global warming is a hoax anyway.
 
MY lifestyle would take up considerably less than one earth. In fact, everyone’s lifestyle currently does. Still, nine earths would be better. I favor galactic colonization. And if the blue smurfs get in the way, watch out.
 
I think it’s wrong to control population growth but we should control our consumer habits. When I went to a Caritas conference (called Cafod here) we found out that a person living in Africa makes 1/100th of the ecological footprint of a person living in Britain. The conference leader also told us Great Britain emits as much pollution as the whole of the African continent. So if we adopted an African lifestyle a lot more people could live on the planet.
This is very true, but the kind of lifestyle that would allow more people to live on the planet doesn’t have a lot of the things we consider basic. Like a reasonably sized home where every person can have their own room, heating, airconditioning, car, a varied diet that includes frequent meat consumption.

Personally I would not be willing to give those things up to make room for more people. I would much prefer it if there were fewer of us but each one could be provided with the kind of life westerners enjoy.

Why do you think it’s wrong to control population growth? It could be done with NFP.
 
This is very true, but the kind of lifestyle that would allow more people to live on the planet doesn’t have a lot of the things we consider basic. Like a reasonably sized home where every person can have their own room, heating, airconditioning, car, a varied diet that includes frequent meat consumption.

Personally I would not be willing to give those things up to make room for more people. I would much prefer it if there were fewer of us but each one could be provided with the kind of life westerners enjoy.

Why do you think it’s wrong to control population growth? It could be done with NFP.
Agreed 100%. There are populations in Africa that live like this. I am positive they do not leave much of a footprint. Personally, I prefer clothing on my kids and a house with actual walls. (especially now that there is snow on the ground!)

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