Overwhelmed by religion

[Micah11]

The Catholic church claims to have the fullness of truth. That’s pretty impressive. And it makes sense. God must have a way for us to know the Truth.

I don’t know a church out there that doesn’t make the same claim.

 

[Micah11]

And say, “Where is the Sinner’s Prayer in the Bible, BTW?”

She won’t be able to show you that, tweetiebird.

Because it’s not in there. :nope:

Now, she may show you some random verses that talk about sinners, and talk about prayers.

But you won’t find a Sinner’s Prayer in the Bible.

That won’t work.
Then she’ll turn around and ask you to show a catholic doctrine that’s not in the Bible.

 

[JRKH]

How do you figure since Protestants came out of the RCC?

I believe is is St John who mentions persons “going out from among us but were never truly a part of us or they would not have gone out”…Something to that effect…

In truth, the Scriptural foundation for Protestantism is very weak no matter what way I’ve looked at it…Whether is is the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura, or Church authority or Church structure…In Each case the Catholic (and EO) Church model shows itself to be more biblical than the Church model used by many protestant denominations.

Peace
James

 

[andrewstx]

One thing that has not been brought up is Tim Tebow is not a politician, he plays American Football. His dad is a proselytizer for Baptist denomination in the Phillipines where he is doing his best to “save” the Phillipinos from the Catholic faith.

Not too long ago there was a very long thread on that very subject.

About child abuse, their are as many Protestant abusers than Catholic ones, it just does not get the medias attention.

 

[JRKH]

I don’t know a church out there that doesn’t make the same claim.

Actually I have spoken to a number of protestants from different denominations and faith traditions and none of them would make the claim to have the “fullness of truth”. They all admit the possibility of error in teaching…

That won’t work.
Then she’ll turn around and ask you to show a catholic doctrine that’s not in the Bible.

I agree with this. Most of the time these sorts of thing turn into a “verse tossing” contest. Not terribly productive.

Peace
James

 

[Micah11]

I believe is is St John who mentions persons “going out from among us but were never truly a part of us or they would not have gone out”…Something to that effect…

Except he wasn’t talking about believers in Jesus Christ, he was talking about anti-Christs who stated that Jesus was not the Christ. 1 John 2

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.

In truth, the Scriptural foundation for Protestantism is very weak no matter what way I’ve looked at it…Whether is is the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura, or Church authority or Church structure…In Each case the Catholic (and EO) Church model shows itself to be more biblical than the Church model used by many protestant denominations.

Peace
James

I don’t find that to be true in the least. Each has their strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Micah11]

About child abuse, their are as many Protestant abusers than Catholic ones, it just does not get the medias attention.

I don’t know if that’s true or not, but the difference is catholics have one person they look to for direction and authority, whereas Protestant churches have different headships.
Having that one person who could address that problem world-wide the moment it started happening (but didn’t) plus the over 3 BILLION dollars in payout to victims so far is what makes this problem so shocking.

 

[Micah11]

Actually I have spoken to a number of protestants from different denominations and faith traditions and none of them would make the claim to have the “fullness of truth”. They all admit the possibility of error in teaching…

And the catholics don’t? People belong to whatever church they belong to because they believe they have it right. Nobody supports a church they think is in error.
And every denomination is going to fight with every other denomination all claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit.

I agree with this. Most of the time these sorts of thing turn into a “verse tossing” contest. Not terribly productive.

Exactly, so why bother? Yet the tradition will continue.

 

[JRKH]

Except he wasn’t talking about believers in Jesus Christ, he was talking about anti-Christs who stated that Jesus was not the Christ. 1 John 2

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.

Thanks for finding the quote and context… Appreciate that.

I don’t find that to be true in the least. Each has their strengths and weaknesses.

I’m not talking about strengths and weaknesses…I’m talking about biblical…I’ve been in many debates on the matter and truly - the RC/EO model is the more biblical.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

And the catholics don’t?

In the area of faith and morals the Catholic Church does not teach error.

People belong to whatever church they belong to because they believe they have it right. Nobody supports a church they think is in error.

Agreed…But what individuals do is different from what “Churches” do and teach.
For example…I said above that the Catholic Church does not teach error in the area of faith and morals. I would not be so bold as to say that “Catholics” (each individual) does not teach error…

And every denomination is going to fight with every other denomination all claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit.

Which is why I Love the Catholic church. Being the most biblical she is able to resolve these matters within her…It sometimes takes considerable time, but the mechanisms are there. The Protestant, independent, denominational, “invisible church”, Sola Scriptura model cannot…there is no authority and, as you rightly say above…they each claim to be Spirit Guided…and Base din Scripture…Except where Scripture tells them how to settle disputes…

Exactly, so why bother? Yet the tradition will continue.

Amen - and that is why every argument of this type eventually comes down to one issue…Authority.

Peace
James

 

[PRmerger]

That won’t work.
Then she’ll turn around and ask you to show a catholic doctrine that’s not in the Bible.

Well, that’s not* our *paradigm…so why do we have to subscribe to that which we don’t proclaim?

We don’t believe that everything we believe about Christ is contained only in the Sacred Scriptures.

 

[Porknpie]

Well, that’s not* our *paradigm…so why do we have to subscribe to that which we don’t proclaim?

We don’t believe that everything we believe about Christ is contained only in the Sacred Scriptures.

So to not believe in the Eucharist is to:

a) misinterpret scripture

AND

b) ignore 2,000 years of church tradition - including the writings of the early church fathers.

It would be a good start to get a) corrected before moving on to b) … and to not follow a man made tradition of communion being “symbolic”.

 

[Micah11]

In the area of faith and morals the Catholic Church does not teach error.

That’s debatable because “morals” is not a cookie cutter issue.

Agreed…But what individuals do is different from what “Churches” do and teach.
For example…I said above that the Catholic Church does not teach error in the area of faith and morals. I would not be so bold as to say that “Catholics” (each individual) does not teach error…

The problem with that is the word “church.” What you mean is, you believe that your leadership does not teach error. “Church” however is more than just the leadership of an organization.

Which is why I Love the Catholic church. ** Being the most biblical **she is able to resolve these matters within her…It sometimes takes considerable time, but the mechanisms are there.

What mechanisms? What say do you have regarding controversial issues in your church?

The Protestant, independent, denominational, “invisible church”, Sola Scriptura model cannot…there is no authority and, as you rightly say above…they each claim to be Spirit Guided…and Base din Scripture…Except where Scripture tells them how to settle disputes…

However, the protestant churches do follow Paul’s model of churches that he planted in that everyone was expected to contribute something, whereas in the catholic church, the clerics handle everything.

Amen - and that is why every argument of this type eventually comes down to one issue…Authority.

And that’s why I became a messianic believer because my only authority is Jesus.

 

[Micah11]

Well, that’s not* our *paradigm…so why do we have to subscribe to that which we don’t proclaim?

We don’t believe that everything we believe about Christ is contained only in the Sacred Scriptures.

That’s fine, but don’t go asking somebody to do something that you’re not willing to do yourself. That would make you appear very hypocritical to the other person.

 

[Porknpie]

That’s fine, but don’t go asking somebody to do something that you’re not willing to do yourself. That would make you appear very hypocritical to the other person.

I don’t follow what you are saying…“do” what?

 

[JRKH]

That’s debatable because “morals” is not a cookie cutter issue.

Yes - topic for another thread. In fact a quick search will likely turn up many threads on this already…

The problem with that is the word “church.” What you mean is, you believe that your leadership does not teach error. “Church” however is more than just the leadership of an organization.

It is true that we need to be careful about how we view the Word “church”…“ekklesia” in the Greek. However, in the matter of teaching, I refer to those things clearly defined and documented by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church using the Authority granted to her by Christ himself and utilizing the methods outlined in Holy Scripture.

What mechanisms?

The mechanisms for the resolution of difficulties are outlined scripturally in Mt 18:15-18 and this outline is demonstrated in action in Acts 15. The Catholic Church is firmly founded on these principles in resolving matters of controversy at various levels as needed.

What say do you have regarding controversial issues in your church?

Well first we need to define what constitutes “controversial” in the Church. Controversial means that there is no clear magisterial teaching on the matter. If there is a clear teaching on the matter, then it is no longer controversial.
As to what my (name removed by moderator)ut is in such undefined matters…As a simple lay “Catholic in the pew”, my participation would mainly be equated with the first two steps outlined in Mt 18:15-18…That is, discussion privately or in small groups at the parish level and/or diocsesan level. It depends of course on what the matter is, who it involves etc…
In addition, many lay Catholics with greater education and understanding can have greater (name removed by moderator)ut.

If the issue is something sufficiently widespread or troubling to the body of Christ, It is generally passed on to the “Elders of the Church” Just as those at Antioch did in Acts 15. At this point we, like those remaining in Antioch, have, “(told) it to the Church”, and await the reply that we may “Listen to the Church” (Mt 18:17) - trusting that the Spirit guides the Church because the Church has authority to “bind and loose - whatever” (Mt 18:18). So says our King and so it is recorded in Scripture by the Holy Spirit.

However, the protestant churches do follow Paul’s model of churches that he planted in that everyone was expected to contribute something, whereas in the catholic church, the clerics handle everything.

Decidedly not true.

• First - Lay Catholics are VERY involved in the functioning of the Church at every level up to and including highly influential positions in the magisterial functions of the Church.
• Second - I don’t know why you would call what you describe as “Paul’s model” when we see this model already described early in Acts among the converts in Jerusalem headed by Peter. (Acts 4:32-35)
• Third - If protestant Churches were following Paul’s model then when they came up against doctrinal controversy they would come together in council one with the other to resolve the matter. That is what was done at Antioch.

And that’s why I became a messianic believer because my only authority is Jesus.

I too am a messianic believer and Jesus is my King - this is foundational to the Catholic Church.

Peace
James

 

[PRmerger]

That’s fine, but don’t go asking somebody to do something that you’re not willing to do yourself. That would make you appear very hypocritical to the other person.

I only ask that which they subscribe to themselves, Micah.

So if someone proclaims, as do the Fundamentalists and Evangelicals, “Everything I need to believe is found in the Bible! The Bible is all I need! The Bible is my sole authority!”…

and then they profess the Sinner’s Prayer…

I’m certainly going to ask them to live up to their paradigm and show me where the Sinner’s Prayer is in the Bible.

They won’t be able to do it.

They won’t be living up to their own paradigm.

You see that, yes?

 

[Nicea325]

Micah11:

However, the protestant churches do follow Paul’s model of churches that he planted in that everyone was expected to contribute something, whereas in the catholic church, the clerics handle everything.

Protestant churches follow St.Paul’s model of churches? Which Protestant churches since there exists many? In the CC cleric handle eveything? Unfortunately you are repeating false information or you are poorly educated as to what the CC truly teaches?

 

[SteveVH]

What mechanisms? What say do you have regarding controversial issues in your church?

If Christ is the head of the Church, why would we want a democracy?

 

[Micah11]

I don’t follow what you are saying…“do” what?

Ask people to prove something thru scripture.