Overwhelmed by religion

[Micah11]

Yes - topic for another thread. In fact a quick search will likely turn up many threads on this already…

No doubt.

However, in the matter of teaching, I refer to those things clearly defined and documented by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church using the Authority granted to her by Christ himself and utilizing the methods outlined in Holy Scripture

Ok, we’re gonna disagree on that one.

The mechanisms for the resolution of difficulties are outlined scripturally in Mt 18:15-18 and this outline is demonstrated in action in Acts 15. The Catholic Church is firmly founded on these principles in resolving matters of controversy at various levels as needed.

I wasn’t thinking so much about difficulties as I was worship

Well first we need to define what constitutes “controversial” in the Church. Controversial means that there is no clear magisterial teaching on the matter. If there is a clear teaching on the matter, then it is no longer controversial.
As to what my (name removed by moderator)ut is in such undefined matters…As a simple lay “Catholic in the pew”, my participation would mainly be equated with the first two steps outlined in Mt 18:15-18…That is, discussion privately or in small groups at the parish level and/or diocsesan level. It depends of course on what the matter is, who it involves etc…
In addition, many lay Catholics with greater education and understanding can have greater (name removed by moderator)ut.

Thank you. Appreciate the explanation.

Decidedly not true.

• First - Lay Catholics are VERY involved in the functioning of the Church at every level up to and including highly influential positions in the magisterial functions of the Church.
• Second - I don’t know why you would call what you describe as “Paul’s model” when we see this model already described early in Acts among the converts in Jerusalem headed by Peter. (Acts 4:32-35)
• Third - If protestant Churches were following Paul’s model then when they came up against doctrinal controversy they would come together in council one with the other to resolve the matter. That is what was done at Antioch.

Again, I was thinking more in terms of worship. It is not uncommon for people in various protestant churches to offer up personal testimonies, praises reports, song or dance in worship which adds to the “family” sense of the church. I couldn’t think of the word… spontaneity.

I too am a messianic believer and Jesus is my King - this is foundational to the Catholic Church.

The difference between you and I is I employ Jewish traditions in my worship.

 

[Micah11]

I only ask that which they subscribe to themselves, Micah.

So if someone proclaims, as do the Fundamentalists and Evangelicals, “Everything I need to believe is found in the Bible! The Bible is all I need! The Bible is my sole authority!”…

and then they profess the Sinner’s Prayer…

I’m certainly going to ask them to live up to their paradigm and show me where the Sinner’s Prayer is in the Bible.

They won’t be able to do it.

They won’t be living up to their own paradigm.

You see that, yes?

Yes, but it will still be seen as hypocritical (just playing devil’s advocate here)
Because I could then turn around and say that you don’t need the Bible, you can just believe whatever you want to.

As far as the “sinner’s prayer” is concerned (personally, I don’t like it) most likely the protestant will open the Bible to Romans 10 and 1 John 1

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, but it will still be seen as hypocritical (just playing devil’s advocate here)
Because I could then turn around and say that you don’t need the Bible, you can just believe whatever you want to.

That’s not what Catholics proclaim. You can’t “believe whatever you want to.”

We proclaim that we must believe that which is proclaimed in the Word of God…

We just don’t believe that the Word of God is limited to only the Bible.

(Please note, Micah, that the Bible never claims to be the entirety of the Word of God.)

 

[Micah11]

That’s not what Catholics proclaim. You can’t “believe whatever you want to.”

We proclaim that we must believe that which is proclaimed in the Word of God…

We just don’t believe that the Word of God is limited to only the Bible.

(Please note, Micah, that the Bible never claims to be the entirety of the Word of God.)

And I agree with that. I’m just showing you the argument you’ll get.
You’ll demand sola scriptura and they’ll tell you to go peddle your “traditions”.
What’s the point?

 

[PRmerger]

And I agree with that. I’m just showing you the argument you’ll get.
You’ll demand sola scriptura and they’ll tell you to go peddle your “traditions”.
What’s the point?

The point is they will recognize the hypocrisy in their position. “Everything I need to believe is found in the Bible!” and, yet, curiously, the Sinner’s Prayer can’t be found in the Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

As far as the “sinner’s prayer” is concerned (personally, I don’t like it) most likely the protestant will open the Bible to Romans 10 and 1 John 1

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

One would have to have a very liberal interpretation of these verses to see the Sinner’s Prayer in either of them.

And, curiously, this very liberal lens of viewing the Bible suddenly turns very literal when Catholics use " “Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny” (Mt 5:25-26)" to support Purgatory.

Peculiarly, now they will be unable to apply their liberal lens to Matthew 5 and will be all, “But that doesn’t mention Purgatory!”

 

[Micah11]

The point is they will recognize the hypocrisy in their position. “Everything I need to believe is found in the Bible!” and, yet, curiously, the Sinner’s Prayer can’t be found in the Bible.

The scriptures on which they base them can.
I don’t believe protestants think sola scriptura means “verbatim”.

 

[Micah11]

One would have to have a very liberal interpretation of these verses to see the Sinner’s Prayer in either of them.

And, curiously, this very liberal lens of viewing the Bible suddenly turns very literal when Catholics use " “Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny” (Mt 5:25-26)" to support Purgatory.

Peculiarly, now they will be unable to apply their liberal lens to Matthew 5 and will be all, “But that doesn’t mention Purgatory!”

Umm…Ok, I’m looking, but I don’t see that as referring to purgatory either.

 

[PRmerger]

The difference between you and I is I employ Jewish traditions in my worship.

This sounds as if you’ve never attended a Catholic Mass, Micah.

If so, you would have recognized the very Jewish-ness of our liturgy.

Does your pastor wear albs, like our priests do,

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

as the Jewish OT priests did?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Does your pastor offer sacrifice at an altar, as the Jewish OT priests did?

Does your church have a Holy of Holies, like Catholic churches do?

Catholic Holy of Holies:



Jewish Holy of Holies:



Yeah, Catholicism is pretty Jewish. :yup:

 

[PRmerger]

The scriptures on which they base them can.
I don’t believe protestants think sola scriptura means “verbatim”.

Of course.

But they make Catholics apply this “verbatim” paradigm for our beliefs.

Why the double standard?

Either say: there are some things which are implied in Scripture, but not proclaimed explicitly.

Then they can justify the use of the Sinner’s Prayer.

And then they’ll have to accept that Purgatory is implied but not explicitly proclaimed.

OR

say: all things that we believe must be found explicitly in Scripture.

Then, they can’t justify the use of the Sinner’s Prayer.

 

[PRmerger]

And that’s why I became a messianic believer because my only authority is Jesus.

Except that you give tacit authority to the Catholic Church each and every time you quote from, say, the Gospel of Mark.

For you would not know that the Gospel of Mark is the inspired Word of God…

except that the Catholic Church discerned this for you.

 

[horselvr]

And say, “Where is the Sinner’s Prayer in the Bible, BTW?”

Oh My That is really just too good. I must remember that one.

 

[Porknpie]

This sounds as if you’ve never attended a Catholic Mass, Micah.

If so, you would have recognized the very Jewish-ness of our liturgy.

Does your pastor wear albs, like our priests do,

http://www.catholicfirst.com/_images/massvestments.jpg

as the Jewish OT priests did?

http://www.academicapparel.com/choir/images/jewishhighpriest.jpg

Does your pastor offer sacrifice at an altar, as the Jewish OT priests did?

Does your church have a Holy of Holies, like Catholic churches do?

Catholic Holy of Holies:

http://www.dawneden.com/uploaded_images/156852049_516841316_0-742258.jpeg

Jewish Holy of Holies:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5162/5222408978_68f4c4e0f2.jpg

Yeah, Catholicism is pretty Jewish. :yup:

 

[JRKH]

I wasn’t thinking so much about difficulties as I was worship

hhmmmm…I went back through this part of the discussion and it began with your comment that:
And every denomination is going to fight with every other denomination all claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit.
I hardly think there is much fighting over worship styles (though I guess there could be) and there are certainly arguments over doctrinal issues

Thank you. Appreciate the explanation.

You are welcome. Too many people think of the Church as some sort of monolith in which the lay person has nothing to say. This is simply not true.

Again, I was thinking more in terms of worship. It is not uncommon for people in various protestant churches to offer up personal testimonies, praises reports, song or dance in worship which adds to the “family” sense of the church. I couldn’t think of the word… spontaneity.

Fair enough…

The difference between you and I is I employ Jewish traditions in my worship.

As already pointed out by another poster above, the Catholic mass has much in common with Jewish tradition. I recall listening to a Jewish convert who spoke of the first time she went to mass and was blown away at how “Jewish” it was (her words). I believe there are even books on this.

Peace
James

 

[tweetiebird]

I guess I had a simple child like faith.

I dont know how to express this next point.

I can only say it in a child like way.

"When I was about 7 or 8 , I start to realize that Jesus was great and could perform miracles. As a little kid this set Jesus apart from others.

I never gave this much thought in 30 years.​

Now I flip on the TV and there is this guy waving his hand and people are slain in the spirit. I turn on another channel, and 75 people have just called in because they are healed. I find out I must get to the next camp meeting so superpastor can lay hands on me. I find out I must buy the anointed hankerchief to receive the touch of GOD.

I have to tune in at midnight to lay hands on the TV to receive the gift of tongues

---

Now here is what confuses me, now I have to take time to verify all this in the bible, I must turn myself into a 24 hour theologian just to study all the new claims protestants make.

I just like to have child like faith.

(P.S. I have taken sometime to see what other denominations think, there are like 24,000 denominations, and some dont believe in tongues, some do. Some wont let you in the seminary if you believe in certain things. Who is right?) Must I study this all for myself? )

 

[RebeccaJ]

I guess I had a simple child like faith.

I dont know how to express this next point.

I can only say it in a child like way.

"When I was about 7 or 8 , I start to realize that Jesus was great and could perform miracles. As a little kid this set Jesus apart from others.

I never gave this much thought in 30 years.​

Now I flip on the TV and there is this guy waving his hand and people are slain in the spirit. I turn on another channel, and 75 people have just called in because they are healed. I find out I must get to the next camp meeting so superpastor can lay hands on me. I find out I must buy the anointed hankerchief to receive the touch of GOD.

I have to tune in at midnight to lay hands on the TV to receive the gift of tongues

---

Now here is what confuses me, now I have to take time to verify all this in the bible, I must turn myself into a 24 hour theologian just to study all the new claims protestants make.

I just like to have child like faith.

Then keep it simple. I went through something similar, shortly after I was baptized Catholic. The number of devotions and forms of Catholic spirituality overwhelmed me. I needed a simple faith.

St. Therese, and her little way, gave me the idea that I didn’t need to make my faith complicated. Prayer, Mass, reading the Bible. Those are the basics. Just “be still, and know I am God”.

I also like quiet time in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Quiet prayer, time to just be still and listen for a while.

 

[Porknpie]

I guess I had a simple child like faith.

I dont know how to express this next point.

I can only say it in a child like way.

"When I was about 7 or 8 , I start to realize that Jesus was great and could perform miracles. As a little kid this set Jesus apart from others.

I never gave this much thought in 30 years.​

Now I flip on the TV and there is this guy waving his hand and people are slain in the spirit. I turn on another channel, and 75 people have just called in because they are healed. I find out I must get to the next camp meeting so superpastor can lay hands on me. I find out I must buy the anointed hankerchief to receive the touch of GOD.

I have to tune in at midnight to lay hands on the TV to receive the gift of tongues

---

Now here is what confuses me, now I have to take time to verify all this in the bible, I must turn myself into a 24 hour theologian just to study all the new claims protestants make.

I just like to have child like faith.

(P.S. I have taken sometime to see what other denominations think, there are like 24,000 denominations, and some dont believe in tongues, some do. Some wont let you in the seminary if you believe in certain things. Who is right?) Must I study this all for myself? )

If you are going to watch something on tv, turn on EWTN. Or go to YouTube and search for Fr Mitch Pacwa. Watch and listen to a few of his homilies. You’ll get a sense as to where the truth is. Your childlife faith will be renewed.

 

[tweetiebird]

I like to have JESUS as my Superpastor.

I am not trying to be funny or cynical. But I wonder what Martin Luther would reform nowadays if he could reform any denomination.

I cant believe people use to get their heads chopped off for heresy.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I like to have JESUS as my Superpastor.

There you go.

Maybe try keeping the TV off for a while, and spend the time in prayer and scripture. That is how you get to know, and become closer to, your Superpastor.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I cant believe people use to get their heads chopped off for heresy.

The politics of kings and queens. Depending on the religious leanings of the current monarch, the heads could be Catholic or Protestant. People are not infallible. We all must return, wounded, to Christ. Look to Him.