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hellopeople
Guest
Paul himself had slaves during his lifetime…even after his conversion. He talks about it in his letter to Philemon. So, if you were living in a country where it was legal, would it be moral to own slaves?
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thistle
Guest
Church teaching:
CCC 2414 The seventh commandment forbids acts or enterprises that for any reason - selfish or ideological, commercial, or totalitarian - lead to the enslavement of human beings, to their being bought, sold and exchanged like merchandise, in disregard for their personal dignity. It is a sin against the dignity of persons and their fundamental rights to reduce them by violence to their productive value or to a source of profit. St. Paul directed a Christian master to treat his Christian slave “no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother, . . . both in the flesh and in the Lord.”
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hellopeople
Guest
So we can have slaves, we just need to treat them right?
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kage_ar
Guest
We cannot have chattal slaves.
If we live in a soceity that permits indentured servitude, we may have this type of servants - provided we treat them with kindness and dignity.
If we live in a soceity that permits indentured servitude, we may have this type of servants - provided we treat them with kindness and dignity.
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Doc_Keele
Guest
Indentured servants often bear little practical difference from slaves.
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kage_ar
Guest
The most distinct being one is moral and one is not.
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Doc_Keele
Guest
Well if there’s little practical difference in many cases, how do you reckon that? The name makes all the difference? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet…
Calling a lease a license agreement don’t make it so!
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kage_ar
Guest
As Paul said “Study to show yourself approved onto God, a workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the world of truth”.
Info from the inet is not knowledge. Spend half the time you do on line in study of Scripture and Church Docuemnts.
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Doc_Keele
Guest
useful contribution kage_arjust admit that you can’t answer the point rather put up a smokescreen - it would certainly be more honest
I have plenty of studying to do in useful areas, rather than Church documents.
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markomalley
Guest
Then why are you here?
just admit that you can’t answer the point rather put up a smokescreen - it would certainly be more honest
I have plenty of studying to do in useful areas, rather than Church documents.
Pope Eugene IV wrote Sicut Dudum (Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands) on January 13, 1435.
- And no less do We order and command all and each of the faithful of each sex, within the space of fifteen days of the publication of these letters in the place where they live, that they restore to their earlier liberty all and each person of either sex who were once residents of said Canary Islands, and made captives since the time of their capture, and who have been made subject to slavery. These people are to be totally and perpetually free, and are to be let go without the exaction or reception of money. If this is not done when the fifteen days have passed, they incur the sentence of excommunication by the act itself, from which they cannot be absolved, except at the point of death, even by the Holy See, or by any Spanish bishop, or by the aforementioned Ferdinand, unless they have first given freedom to these captive persons and restored their goods. We will that like sentence of excommunication be incurred by one and all who attempt to capture, sell, or subject to slavery, baptized residents of the Canary Islands, or those who are freely seeking Baptism, from which excommunication cannot be absolved except as was stated above.
We define and declare by these Our letters, or by any translation thereof signed by any notary public and sealed with the seal of any ecclesiastical dignitary, to which the same credit shall be given as to the originals, that, notwithstanding whatever may have been or may be said to the contrary, the said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ; and that they may and should, freely and legitimately, enjoy their liberty and the possession of their property; nor should they be in any way enslaved; should the contrary happen, it shall be null and have no effect.
Gregory XVI condemned all trade in black slaves back in 1837:
We reprove, then, by virtue of Our Apostolic Authority, all the practices abovementioned as absolutely unworthy of the Christian name. By the same Authority We prohibit and strictly forbid any Ecclesiastic or lay person from presuming to defend as permissible this traffic in Blacks under no matter what pretext or excuse, or from publishing or teaching in any manner whatsoever, in public or privately, opinions contrary to what We have set forth in this Apostolic Letter.
So it has been pretty much the consistent teaching of the Church for 600 years.
Sorry you don’t think reading Church documents is worthwhile…
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Newbie2
Guest
Quote, please.
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hellopeople
Guest
Have you ever read Philemon…the whole thing is about a slave that he is returning to someone.
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kage_ar
Guest
These were indentured servants, NOT chattal slaves.
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camerong
Guest
If Paul had a servant who was legally bound to him, and treated the servant consistently with the rest of his post-conversion life, I doubt the servant would have wanted to leave. If not, Paul probably sinned, but no one ever said Paul was free from sin.
As we heard today in the readings, the servants are the highest in the Kingdom of God. I should rather be a slave to man as righteous as St. Paul than be the head of any kingdom, country, or organization on Earth.
As we heard today in the readings, the servants are the highest in the Kingdom of God. I should rather be a slave to man as righteous as St. Paul than be the head of any kingdom, country, or organization on Earth.
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Doc_Keele
Guest
Why are you here?
So only people who are Catholic should join Catholic Answers? Not last time I checked.
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kage_ar
Guest
So you are now NOT Catholic? Just a few posts ago you were not just Catholic but a lay Carmelite. Might want to get your story straight.Why are you here?
So only people who are Catholic should join Catholic Answers? Not last time I checked.
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Doc_Keele
Guest
I think you ought to read what people post not what you think they post
Read what I’ve posted again, and tell me then where I’ve said I’m not Catholic?
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markomalley
Guest
Seems to me that “I have better things to do” is usually what somebody says when they opus. At least that’s what I’ve seen since back in the days of BBS’ and when Compuserve used to be the epitome of performance.Why are you here?
So only people who are Catholic should join Catholic Answers? Not last time I checked.
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Doc_Keele
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markomalley
Guest
opus: one’s opus magnum…i.e., the final glorious post one makes on a message forum prior to leaving. Usually involves discussing how ridiculous and stupid the other members of the forum are and how superior the opus’ing poster is. “I have better things to do” is invariably part of such a post, in my experience.“opus”?
I’m sorry but I don’t know what you’re on about?
An opus, of course, is invariably followed up by “don’t let the door hit you … on your way out” type responses.
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