Pacifism and Memorial Day

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I know the Catholic Church has a differing opinion on violence than I, but I am willing to be there are other pacifists on this forum. Every year around this time, all the non-pacifists out there try to convince me that I am just like them, that if the situation was right, I would react violently. Well-maybe, I am not willing to completely rule that out, but it gets annoying after awhile. I usually am ready to punch a whole through the wall when I see the facebook messages trying to guilt me into paying homage to war (the ones that say, the real heroes fight and die so I can have my idiotic opinion). Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to take anything away from soldiers; they are indeed some of the bravest people I know. But I am trying to figure out just what is a proper Christian-pacifist way to respond to something like Memorial Day? How do I stay give proper honor to men and women who are employed in a profession with which I cannot agree, against which everything within me screams that there must be a better way? Do I pretend I hold to just war theory? But even this falls flat; the country I live in has never fought a completely just war in its entire existence.
 
Taestron said:
How do I stay give proper honor to men and women who are employed in a profession with which I cannot agree, against which everything within me screams that there must be a better way? Do I pretend I hold to just war theory? But even this falls flat; the country I live in has never fought a completely just war in its entire existence.
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I guess if your conscience will not allow it, then you must live with that.
 
How can you refuse to honor those whose willingness to engage in military activity provides you with the freedom to choose not to engage in military activity?
 
I might be the second pacifist on the CAF, amigo 🙂

While I never served or considered it, and am now overage, I have no problem with Memorial Day. It is not about paying homage to war, it is about paying homage to human beings, like you or me, who stopped being so their country – which is not just square mileage, it is principles and people – would be protected.

We can and should honor them ever if we cannot agree with or imitate them.

Welcome to the CAF, amigo.

ICXC NIKA
 
We are supposed to be like Christ. Christ was *not *a pacifist–if He had been, He would have conddemned the Centurion rather than helping him, no?

There are times when war is *necessary *lest a *greater *evil befall us. There are times when we *must *fight physically against evil.

Now, it is true that some saints died rather than to commit an act of evil against an agressor, but that was their decision. In other situations, there are those in need of protection *for *whom others must fight.

Imagine that a man was about to attack someone you loved, a person who was not able to defend him- or herself. Say, your mother, your wife, your child. Then it is your *job *to protect them, and that might require violence!

In the same way, we are to have patriotism (not nationalism, but a love of the people in our communities and nation), and sometimes it is necessary to fight to protect our country.

What would you say about a man who watched someone beat another person up without even trying to help?
 
Regarding the centurion. You can help someone in need without agreeing with them.

To imply that our LORD approved of war because HE did not urge a military man to give it up is a stretch. Giving it up was likely impossible.

He never told anyone to be a soldier, either. Arguments from silence prove nothing.

ICXC NIKA
 
Taestron said:
I know the Catholic Church has a differing opinion on violence than I,
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The Church does not really approve of violence, but it is content with just wars. Two distinct ideas.
Taestron said:
but I am willing to be there are other pacifists on this forum.
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A good, safe bet.

snip
Taestron said:
But I am trying to figure out just what is a proper Christian-pacifist way to respond to something like Memorial Day? How do I stay give proper honor to men and women who are employed in a profession with which I cannot agree, against which everything within me screams that there must be a better way? Do I pretend I hold to just war theory? But even this falls flat; the country I live in has never fought a completely just war in its entire existence.
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The proper way to respond to something like Memorial Day is (a) accept that people want to celebrate it, (b) do not get snippy if someone rebuffs your extreme pacifism, and (c) do not draw attention to yourself for hating all wars. (c) also applies to giving the proper honor: the less you do to say they died in a worthless battle (your opinion, at least) the more honor they would retain.

Also, the “country you live in,” which appears to be America since your location is Illinois, has been in many Just Wars (and the list is debatable):
  • King Williams’s War, 1689-1697
  • The American Revolution, 1775-1783
  • The Franco American Naval War, 1798-1800
  • The War of 1812, 1812-1815
  • WWI, 1914-1918
  • WWII, 1941-1945
  • Grenada, 1983
  • Panama, 1989
  • Bosnia Herzegovenia intervention, 1995-1996
  • Persian Gulf War, 1990-1991
  • Afghanistan (Terror) 2002-?
I know some people like to put the Civil War (or War of Northern Aggression, depending on your locale) on the list of just American wars, but I do not believe it was a just war. There also have been an approximately equal number of unjust wars (including Iraq, Vietnam, the Indian wars, and Bay of Pigs).
 
I am retired military. I sum up my career in one word: AGAIN.

By the time I was 12, I understood what my life would have been had we lost World War II. I HAD to serve because, for me, that was the only way I could properly express my appreciation for the entire line of those who fought to give me FREEDOM.

Yet I also respect honest pacifists. There is honor in taking heat because one believes sincerely that it is always wrong to take other life. Wrong to the point that they would be willing to be killed themselves or allow their loved ones to be killed or accept subjugation, often very brutal, for perhaps an entire life or for generations.

For me, I know evil exists. Evil intends to have its way in the world and will treat any who get in its way horribly. I also believe that LOVE requires me to protect and provide for those I love. When necessary, I am required to fight against evil in order to protect and provide for the ones I love. I understand that there is spiritual evil as well as physical evil. I do the best I can to defend on both fronts.

To me, an honest pacifist, who cannot bring himself to engage in the physical battle, would redouble his efforts in the Spiritual battle against evil. It seems to me that an honest pacifist would be constantly pleading for God’s help and not spend so much time wondering if it is right or wrong to honor those who gave their lives in the physical battle against evil.
As for America’s military efforts outside America: If I am able, am I not required to also protect and provide for those I love who live under evil’s brutal boot? America cannot fight evil everywhere everytime. But, if our national interests are involved, do we not have a duty to try to reduce evil? Or are we to ignore it all and live selfishly ignoring those who are suffering too much? Would we like to live that way and know that someone could help but could not be bothered?

Knowing when to fight physcially is the huge question. The Principles of Just War are extremely important in making that decision. America could do better with that. But, in these past 100 years America has not fought to subjugate but to defend and expand Freedom.

It wasn’t always easy.
It wasn’t always fair.
Freedom called.
We answered.
We are there.

Source: US Army, Spirit of America
 
As a Friend, I am against war…our peace testimony states…"“We utterly deny all outward wars and strife and fightings with outward weapons, for any end, or under any pretence whatsoever; and this is our testimony to the whole world. The spirit of Christ, by which we are guided, is not changeable, so as once to command us from a thing as evil and again to move unto it; and we do certainly know, and so testify to the world, that the spirit of Christ, which leads us into all Truth, will never move us to fight and war against any man with outward weapons, neither for the kingdom of Christ, nor for the kingdoms of this world.”

We are citizens of another Kingdom…all that being said. The Society of Friends went thru some difficult struggles in seeking to find the balance of how we treat those who chose to ignore the Peace Testimony and engage in war or join the military.

Because we do not believe any of us can determine for someone else the Ways of God an how He might lead them…we no longer “read out of meeting”…aka “excommunicate”…“disfellowship” those who for what ever reason feel God is leading them in the direction they are going. We choose to “hold them in the Light”. …and we honor their sacrifice as being “one of conscience” just as we honor those who as Friends decide to live by the Peace Testimony.

They made difficult choices of conscience…and payed the ultimate price in laying down their lives. I don’t have to “glorify” the violence they engaged in to honor them as people of conscience.
 
Taestron said:
I know the Catholic Church has a differing opinion on violence than I, but I am willing to be there are other pacifists on this forum. Every year around this time, all the non-pacifists out there try to convince me that I am just like them, that if the situation was right, I would react violently. Well-maybe, I am not willing to completely rule that out, but it gets annoying after awhile. I usually am ready to punch a whole through the wall when I see the facebook messages trying to guilt me into paying homage to war (the ones that say, the real heroes fight and die so I can have my idiotic opinion). Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to take anything away from soldiers; they are indeed some of the bravest people I know. But I am trying to figure out just what is a proper Christian-pacifist way to respond to something like Memorial Day? How do I stay give proper honor to men and women who are employed in a profession with which I cannot agree, against which everything within me screams that there must be a better way? Do I pretend I hold to just war theory? But even this falls flat; the country I live in has never fought a completely just war in its entire existence.
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I greatly respect conscientious objectors (those who will not kill themselves) yet volunteer to serve as medics (and face the danger of combat).

However, I don’t see how a Christian can be an out and out pacifist. What is one supposed to do when innocent people are attacked? Let the aggressor kill, rape, enslave them?

What were the Poles supposed to do in 1939? Welcome the Nazis and Communist and watch them exterminate 20% of the population without resisting?

God Bless
 
DaveBj said:
How can you refuse to honor those whose willingness to engage in military activity provides you with the freedom to choose not to engage in military activity?
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But it doesn’t.

Our freedom to follow Jesus, whether that involves nonviolence or not, comes from Jesus and not from the state.

And how does American military activity give pacifists living in America the freedom not to engage in military activity?

You are assuming, without providing any evidence, that if Americans didn’t wage wars, then they would be taken over by some other government that would make everyone engage in military service, apparently. That’s a pretty big hypothetical. Even if true, this would actually give Christian pacifists a chance to witness to their faith more bravely and dramatically than is presently possible or necessary. But no one really knows if it’s true in the first place.

Your statement simply betrays the idolatrous way most Americans think about the state and the military.

Edwin
 
bilop said:
I greatly respect conscientious objectors (those who will not kill themselves) yet volunteer to serve as medics (and face the danger of combat).

However, I don’t see how a Christian can be an out and out pacifist. What is one supposed to do when innocent people are attacked? Let the aggressor kill, rape, enslave them?
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No, one is supposed to lay down one’s life for them.

The assumptions behind your question are that
  1. There is no way to defend the innocent that doesn’t involve violence; and
  2. Violent ways of defending the innocent are straightforwardly effective and rarely or never wind up doing serious harm to the folks we’re supposedly defending.
In fact, both of these assumptions are clearly false.
What were the Poles supposed to do in 1939? Welcome the Nazis and Communist and watch them exterminate 20% of the population without resisting?
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Isn’t that about how many people died anyway? Actually 21.4% if Wikipedia is correct.

So how exactly is this an argument for armed resistance? If you could show that fewer people died than would have died if nonviolent means were used, then you’d have a case, and a Christian pacifist would just have to say “well, sometimes you have to follow Jesus even if it doesn’t have good practical results” (just as we would both say, I suspect, that embryonic stem cell research is wrong even if it saves lives). But in fact you haven’t shown this.

Your argument doesn’t seem to be about the number of lives saved (since you haven’t made a case that Polish armed resistance saved any lives at all), but simply the duty of resisting evil. And I entirely agree with you. In fact, since I’m not in fact entirely convinced by pacifist arguments, I am not even saying that such resistance would have to be nonviolent. But nonviolent resistance certainly fulfills the moral obligation to resist evil.

Edwin
 
St_Francis said:
We are supposed to be like Christ. Christ was *not *a pacifist–if He had been, He would have conddemned the Centurion rather than helping him, no?
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Jesus only helped people who were not sinning?

Just what New Testament are you reading?

C. S. Lewis’s argument, which I used to find persuasive, is that Jesus praised the centurion’s faith without telling him to give up his calling–the implication being that he approved that calling.

I don’t find this very persuasive any more. Logically, we would have to conclude that the centurion had no sins at all, since Jesus doesn’t single out any of his sins.
There are times when war is *necessary *lest a *greater *evil befall us.
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That assumes that war is not an intrinsic evil. Therefore, it is not an argument against the pacifist position at all (unless you reject Catholic teaching that it is always wrong to commit intrinsic evil, even if a “greater good” is in view).

I am myself not a pacifist, though I’m close. I’m not convinced that war is intrinsically evil. But I also think it’s pretty hard to find wars that clearly prevented “greater evils” than they brought about.
Imagine that a man was about to attack someone you loved, a person who was not able to defend him- or herself. Say, your mother, your wife, your child. Then it is your *job *to protect them, and that might require violence!
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If violence is not intrinsically evil (and I’m not convinced it is), then you are right. If it isn’t, then you aren’t. You’re starting at the wrong end–the “consequentialist” end–and that’s incompatible with Catholic ethics.
What would you say about a man who watched someone beat another person up without even trying to help?
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Straw man. The pacifist argument is not that we shouldn’t try to help.

Edwin
 
Taestron said:
I know the Catholic Church has a differing opinion on violence than I, but I am willing to be there are other pacifists on this forum. Every year around this time, all the non-pacifists out there try to convince me that I am just like them, that if the situation was right, I would react violently. Well-maybe, I am not willing to completely rule that out, but it gets annoying after awhile. I usually am ready to punch a whole through the wall when I see the facebook messages trying to guilt me into paying homage to war (the ones that say, the real heroes fight and die so I can have my idiotic opinion). Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to take anything away from soldiers; they are indeed some of the bravest people I know. But I am trying to figure out just what is a proper Christian-pacifist way to respond to something like Memorial Day? How do I stay give proper honor to men and women who are employed in a profession with which I cannot agree, against which everything within me screams that there must be a better way? Do I pretend I hold to just war theory? But even this falls flat; the country I live in has never fought a completely just war in its entire existence.
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I’m not sure that you have to “respond” to Memorial Day at all. You can pray for those who are engaged in a dangerous profession on behalf of something they believe to be right, even if you think they are wrong. I don’t think you have to either join in the nationalistic hoopla or make a point of taking some stand against it.

Edwin
 
Taestron said:
I know the Catholic Church has a differing opinion on violence than I, but I am willing to be there are other pacifists on this forum. Every year around this time, all the non-pacifists out there try to convince me that I am just like them, that if the situation was right, I would react violently. Well-maybe, I am not willing to completely rule that out, but it gets annoying after awhile. I usually am ready to punch a whole through the wall when I see the facebook messages trying to guilt me into paying homage to war (the ones that say, the real heroes fight and die so I can have my idiotic opinion). Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to take anything away from soldiers; they are indeed some of the bravest people I know. But I am trying to figure out just what is a proper Christian-pacifist way to respond to something like Memorial Day? How do I stay give proper honor to men and women who are employed in a profession with which I cannot agree, against which everything within me screams that there must be a better way? Do I pretend I hold to just war theory? But even this falls flat; the country I live in has never fought a completely just war in its entire existence.
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I’m not sure that you have to “respond” to Memorial Day at all. You can pray for those who are engaged in a dangerous profession on behalf of something they believe to be right, even if you think they are wrong. I don’t think you have to either join in the nationalistic hoopla or make a point of taking some stand against it.

And I don’t think there’s any contradiction between being a pacifist and a Catholic. Certainly there are Catholic pacifists–quite prominent ones–and I’m not aware of any condemnation of pacifism by the modern Catholic Church.

Edwin
 
Taestron said:
I know the Catholic Church has a differing opinion on violence than I, but I am willing to be there are other pacifists on this forum. Every year around this time, all the non-pacifists out there try to convince me that I am just like them, that if the situation was right, I would react violently. Well-maybe, I am not willing to completely rule that out, but it gets annoying after awhile. I usually am ready to punch a whole through the wall when I see the facebook messages trying to guilt me into paying homage to war (the ones that say, the real heroes fight and die so I can have my idiotic opinion). Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to take anything away from soldiers; they are indeed some of the bravest people I know. But I am trying to figure out just what is a proper Christian-pacifist way to respond to something like Memorial Day? How do I stay give proper honor to men and women who are employed in a profession with which I cannot agree, against which everything within me screams that there must be a better way? Do I pretend I hold to just war theory? But even this falls flat; the country I live in has never fought a completely just war in its entire existence.
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Just keep your mouth shut, your opinions to yourself and say a prayer for the souls of the deceased military people.
You have the right to your opinions, paid for with the blood of the dead of all our past wars. You don’t have the right to be rude and upset other people on what is one of the most serious public holidays in the US. Doing so, is not only un-Christian, it is un-wise. If someone bopped you on your nose because of an egregious pacifist statement made on Memorial day, I doubt even the police would side with you…and I would probably be the one who dotted your nose!
 
bilop said:
What were the Poles supposed to do in 1939? Welcome the Nazis and Communist and watch them exterminate 20% of the population without resisting?

God Bless
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So in your mind, was the young JP2 wrong to NOT fight bodily in 1939?

Should he have gone forth like Don Quijote to die bravely and in vain?

What would Church and world history have been like then?

ICXC NIKA
 
George_Stegmeir said:
Just keep your mouth shut, your opinions to yourself and say a prayer for the souls of the deceased military people.
You have the right to your opinions, paid for with the blood of the dead of all our past wars. You don’t have the right to be rude and upset other people on what is one of the most serious public holidays in the US. Doing so, is not only un-Christian, it is un-wise. If someone bopped you on your nose because of an egregious pacifist statement made on Memorial day, I doubt even the police would side with you…and I would probably be the one who dotted your nose!
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Breaking somebody’s nose because you disagree with them is “un-Christian.”

Being a pacifist, a priori, is not.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA
 
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