Pacifist Amish calling police to kill/capture gunman they forgave?

[kellie]

Do Amish pacifists see no problem in their religious pacifist beliefs in calling the police to use violence to protect them?

Do Pacifists believe in the use of violence to protect themselves?

Do Pacifist Amish believe themselves to be evil in calling the police (violence) to protect themselves.

Is it that pacifist religions believe it is ok for others to use violence to protect pacifists but it would be evil for pacifists to use violence to protect themselves?

Hello ByzCath,

Actually how Catholic and the world in general sees the actions of the pacifist Amish is of primary interest to me. I see quite a few Christians on these forums talking about how peaceful and forgiving the Amish were in the situation. Yet the Amish called the police, who the Amish caller knew would rely on violence not non-violent means, to protect the Amish. If the caller had pacifist religious views opposed to all violence by all people, they would have called in an Amish pacifist prayer group to go down and resolve the issue, not the police.

Secondary I am very interested in how the pacifst Amish see calling the police, who they know will use violence, if needed, to protect the innocent, in regard to their pacifist religious beliefs.

Hello Max,

I simply want to discuss and debate how Christians understand pacifism and forgiveness toward those who come to harm us.

If the Amish, Mennonite and Quakers do not understand that the police are not going to sit by idle having a prayer cerimony while innocent people are being murdered, then it is our Christian duty to educate them on this. When some one calls the police to come to a mass murder senario, they had better have full knowledge and understanding that using lethal force, if needed to protect the innocent, is going to be at the top of the police agenda.

Hello psteichen,

We all need to understand how Christian pasifism and forgiveness fits into using violence to protect ourselves.

Many people do not understand that Americans, Amish and Catholics can forgive and be pacifists and still kill to protect themsleves. This can be done at a police level or a military level.

America can learn Christian pacifism and forgiveness by examining how the Christian religious Amish forgive and practice pacifism, and still utalize lethal force, if nessessary, to protect the innocent.

I am confused as to your personal views on pacifism and forgiveness Steven.

It seems as if you started off the thread by condemning the Amish for preaching pacifism, then being hypocritical by calling the police, then your last post states that America can learn how to forgive and practice pacifism by still using lethal force if necessary.

I’m confused :whacky:

 

[deb1]

love and forgiveness…yeah right i have a friend who know a friend who delkivered babies for 2 young girls who were raped by a family friend and shunned because “they brought it upon themselves” now unless they was weariung a hoolker outfit i dotn see how

This is called hearsay. When a person is so removed from the story, no one can be certain if the story is indeed true. You might indeed have heard this correctly from your friend, but you have no idea if your friend heard it correctly from his friend, or if his/her friend was being honest. That is why most people don’t put much stock in hearsay.

 

[St_John]

St John: I agree with everything you said. I just wanted to add one clarification lest the anti-Catholics that read this get the impression that it was all our fault.

Thank you for clarifying this. Anyways, it wasn’t “us”, nor probably our ancesters, but a few people who were in power. That would be like blaming all Jews, past and present, for the death of Christ, or blaming all Christians, past and present, for the persecution of Jews, or any other assignment of group blame.

 

[Steven_Merten]

I am confused as to your personal views on pacifism and forgiveness Steven.

It seems as if you started off the thread by condemning the Amish for preaching pacifism, then being hypocritical by calling the police, then your last post states that America can learn how to forgive and practice pacifism by still using lethal force if necessary.

I’m confused :whacky:

Hello kellie,

The point of this thread is to discuss whether the Amish were hipocrites or whether it is within the Amish pacifist and forgiveness phylosophy to use deadly force to protect themselves.

Pope John Paul II forgave his attempted assassin. Many would think that this meant Pope John Paul II desired to open the door to the prison and let the convicted murderer (who murdered a newspaper man in Turkey allong with the attempt to murder Pope John Paul II) walk out into the Italian community or Vatican City a free man. Letting the known murderer out of prison a free man, without punishment, was not what Pope John Paul II meant when he told the man he forgave him. Letting known murderers out with no punishment would not protect the people living in Vatican City and Italy. If police just let murders go, would you feel safe?

Do the Pacifist Amish see calling the police to use even deadly force to protect their children as what forgiving Amish pasifists do? Personally, I am assuming that the Amish calling the police to utilize violence to protect their children is not against their pacifist Christian beliefs. Personally I am trying to show Christians and the world that Pacifists do not see using even deadly force to protect their children as evil. In this case it would be good for America to understand this and do as the Amish do.

Would it not be great for President Bush to be just as forgiving as Pope John Paul II and just as much of a pacifist as the Amish as America continues her war against the terrorists? President Bush forgiving the terrorists he is out to kill/capture/punish, in the same way the Pope and the pacifists protect themselves by doing this, would be a great thing. That is, of course, if religious people are being straight forward honest and not hipocrites.

Here, on these forums, we can discuss and debate how Christian pacifists and Christian forgivers see using violence and punishments to protect themselves as acceptable or non-acceptable to their religious beliefs.

Do you, kellie, automatically believe that it was not right for religious pacifist to call the police to use violence to protect their children? Do you believe that it is possible for Christian pacifists to believe in using deadly force to protect their children? Can a Christian forgive someone and still believe in sending them to prison for 19 years? If you believe that yes Christian pacifist, forgiving, believers believe you can use violence and punishments to protect yourself then I believe that America and President Bush are very close to fufilling these Christian beliefs. If the President would now only come out and forgive the terrorists as he continues on in Americas goal to kill/capture/punish the terrorists to protect the innocent.

First we have to decide if what the religious pacifist and Christian forgivers are doing is really what they believe is Jesus will. I believe that Christians using deadly force to protect themselves from those, who they have forgiven, who want to murder them, is the will of Jesus.

How do you see pacifists calling the police to kill/capture the gunman to protect their children? Somehow I get the feeling that you are trying not to look at the situation because you fear the Amish actually are hipocrites and it would be nice as Christians to hide this truth from the world in their time of morning. America is morning after 911. Iraq is morning after decades of attrocities where hundreds of thousands were murdered by Saddam. We all feel the same pain in loss of loved ones from the attrcities of the wicked as the Amish do. Let us put together a Christian plan as to when Jesus wills us to kill to protect the innocent from those we have forgiven. Looking at when pacifist, forgiving Christians utilize deadly force, if nessessary, is a good place to start. Don’t you think?

 

[MojeIme1981]

I see quite a few Christians on these forums talking about how peaceful and forgiving the Amish were in the situation. Yet the Amish called the police, who the Amish caller knew would rely on violence not non-violent means, to protect the Amish.

I think you are trying to point out the hypocrisy of the Amish community. Well this is a weak attempt to doubt their Christian way of living, because you are forgetting were the true hypocrisy comes from. It comes from a modern democracy with a modern economic system in which are so many Catholics also involved. Main achievement of a modern democracy is to accumulate wealth in the expense of the weaker and poorer, dumber. This leads to social inequality, family separation, violence and crimes, as one can see every day on the news. But this simple truth is so well hidden behind all the economic nonsense, so that the members of a modern democracy are not aware of it. In fact many members of a modern economy believe directly the opposite. They believe that making business achievements will bring some positives to the community. Well it wont, it will just keep the modern economy of injustices rolling on. Not to acknowledge that, is the true hypocrisy.

The Amish are not taking part of it. And if their only sin is to ask the members of the modern economy for protection of the violence which comes from the same modern economy, then I would dare to say that this is no sin at all.

 

[kellie]

Steven,

So the point of this thread is to express your wish for Bush to forgive the men who flew the planes into the Twin Towers ??

But still wanting him to seek out, capture, and punish their bosses ??

 

[Chris7]

Hello ByzCath,

Actually how Catholic and the world in general sees the actions of the pacifist Amish is of primary interest to me. I see quite a few Christians on these forums talking about how peaceful and forgiving the Amish were in the situation. Yet the Amish called the police, who the Amish caller knew would rely on violence not non-violent means, to protect the Amish. If the caller had pacifist religious views opposed to all violence by all people, they would have called in an Amish pacifist prayer group to go down and resolve the issue, not the police.

Secondary I am very interested in how the pacifst Amish see calling the police, who they know will use violence, if needed, to protect the innocent, in regard to their pacifist religious beliefs.

Steven, to offer up an analogy (an arduos task) similar to the point you’re trying to make consider the following: All of us are concerned with things polluting the planet but have no problem dropping our drawers to go potty. According to your perspective this is totally hypocritical in that if we were truly conscious of the enviroment we would just hold it. Well, I’m sorry but like the Fonz said, (from Happy Days) “when you got to go, you got to go.”
The Amish called the proper authorities to address the situation rather than attempting to take the matter into their own hands to which they were obviously ill equipped as most people would be in that situation. Unfortunately, due to their religious beliefs, a phone was not readily available so critical minutes lapsed before the call for help was placed. Through it all, they have demonstrated to the world temendous faith, restraint, AND common sense.

 

[hilde_the_dog]

Steve did you ever wonder why we were attacked in the first place. Maybe if we had a foreign policy like Switzerland things would be different.

 

[thomon16]

The basic problem with Amish and police departments is that
the Amish believe that they should solve problems by themselves
within the Amish community and not involve the “English” police
and courts. Just look at what happens to Amish sexual abusers.
They are “banned” from the Amish church. If they “repent”, they
are forgiven and readmitted to the church WITHOUT being
turned over to the police and court system. This has been
documented in several press and TV reports.

amishabuse.com/

 

[St_John]

The basic problem with Amish and police departments is that
the Amish believe that they should solve problems by themselves
within the Amish community and not involve the “English” police
and courts. Just look at what happens to Amish sexual abusers.
They are “banned” from the Amish church. If they “repent”, they
are forgiven and readmitted to the church WITHOUT being
turned over to the police and court system. This has been
documented in several press and TV reports.

amishabuse.com/

Weren’t some of our Bishops guilty of the same practice with predatory priests?

 

[thomon16]

Exactly. But, the Amish believe fundamentally that they must
have NOTHING to do with the evil, corrupt, outside “English”
world. Hence, they will not sue in American courts when
there is an injustice which can be corrected legally. And, if
you have seen television reports, they weep for perpetrators of
rape but not for the victims who sought legal recourse.

I can understand (but not excuse or justify) when a religious
person says “I forgive you your sin”, but I CANNOT understand
a Christian who does not accept restitution from the sinner.
Restitution must come with repentance.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Steven, to offer up an analogy (an arduos task) similar to the point you’re trying to make consider the following: All of us are concerned with things polluting the planet but have no problem dropping our drawers to go potty. According to your perspective this is totally hypocritical in that if we were truly conscious of the enviroment we would just hold it. Well, I’m sorry but like the Fonz said, (from Happy Days) “when you got to go, you got to go.”

The Amish called the proper authorities to address the situation rather than attempting to take the matter into their own hands to which they were obviously ill equipped as most people would be in that situation. Unfortunately, due to their religious beliefs, a phone was not readily available so critical minutes lapsed before the call for help was placed. Through it all, they have demonstrated to the world temendous faith, restraint, AND common sense.

Hello Chris,

I hope you take no offense but I have to admit that I had to chuckel a little with your post. When God created existance and animals, I hardly think God considered animals pooping as polution. I grew up a dairy farmer. Dairy farmers consider animals pooping as fertilizer to grow crops with, not polution. It is one of those cycle of life things.

So, as I understand it, you believe that pacism is fine and great but when pacifists encounter someone actually trying to harm them, (when they really have to go pody in your anology), then it would only be natural and non-hipocritical that they would call the police to kill/capture/punish (rely on violence) to protect themselves from the gunman. Is this correct?

You seem to realize that when someone (even a pacifist) is actually threatened or being harmed, like the Amish school children, the only answer is to use violence (police), not pacifism, to protect them from the attack. So where does pacifism, which many religious people see as what a Christian should do when someone threatens or harms them, come into play, in your estimation?

I am all for Amish having cell phones which, for religious reasons, they only use in situations when they, as pacifists, need to call the police to come and use violence (force) to protect themselves. Would this type of phone use fit into the Amish religious practice? Or is this a non-pacifist Christian judgement on what Amish pacifist Christians should do to be responsible Christians who care for the lives of their children and their own lives?

 

[Chris7]

Steven, I’m glad you got a chuckle out of my post, I chuckled when I wrote it. I must say though, I’m at a loss at trying to figure out where you’re going with this other than for sake of having a debate. What in your mind would have been the appropriate actions taken by the Amish people in that horrific situation?
If you’re point is that even a pacifist will come out swinging when backed into a corner then I’d argue that self preservation trumps pacifism. If you’re calling out these people for refusing to defend their country due to their religious beliefs which precludes them from engaing in the inherent violence of warfare then I somewhat see the hypocrisy.
I think the broader message in all of this is that wherever there are people, there too will be crime. I don’t thinks it’s an unreasonable expectation for any of us not to be a victim of crime regardless of what our religious beliefs are or where we live. The reality is, subscribing to a particular religion or choosing a.particular place to live doesn’t necessarily preclude us from falling victims to crime. I personally view the past horrific events as a call to action. Each and everyone of us must always be cognizant of the dangers that lurk about and be vigilant in adopting the appropriate defensive measures. Seize every moment to hug family and friends; you don’t know who is looking at them or why.
Peace be with You

 

[Katie1723]

5 little girls were murdered. As a parent, I would have done anything I had to, to stop the killing of more. I would hope, also, that I would be able to forgive whoever took innocent lives.
I am not so sure I could be as magnanimous as the Amish were if my grand daughter were murdered. I find their beliefs and equanimity wonderfully refreshing.
Kathy

 

[Chris7]

Well put Kathy.

 

[system]

I’m glad to see zero responses to this poll. I saw your postings in another thread and it is clear you have some agenda you want to prove.

To be clear, I’m, saying that your mind is made up. You have made a poll that no one can answer without ending up on the losing side of one of your twisted arguments.

And finally, you keep saying the Amish KNEW what would happen when they called the police. That’s impossible.
I see Amish, Mennonite, and Quakers all over the area here, and I am POSITIVE they do not have the power to see into the future.

And dragging 9/11 into is a nasty red herring.

So, I’m curious…what did the Amish do to you, Steve?

You can a thread has gone nowhere when you can quote something you wrote a week ago!

The first time that you brought this up in another thread, you had not even read the news about it. Seems you still haven’t.

**The Amish did not kill the man.

The Police did not Kill the man.

The man took his own life. **

Is this just to get people to visit your interesting website? Have your webstats gone up this past week?

I end this post as I did a week ago: Steven - what have the Amish done to you?

 

[Steven_Merten]

You can a thread has gone nowhere when you can quote something you wrote a week ago!

The first time that you brought this up in another thread, you had not even read the news about it. Seems you still haven’t.

**The Amish did not kill the man. **

**The Police did not Kill the man. **

**The man took his own life. **

Is this just to get people to visit your interesting website? Have your webstats gone up this past week?

I end this post as I did a week ago: Steven - what have the Amish done to you?

Hello Max,

Are you judging me?

My interest lies in how Christians understand Pacifists calling the Police, who use violence to protect people, to protect themselves. Many Christians understand pacifism as being repulsed by the use of violence. Many Christians think that Christian Pacifists believe in accepting harm to themselves and their loved ones without using violence (police) to protect themselves. This is what makes the poll and the discussion interesting.

To forgive a person and then punish/kill/capture the person is of interest to me also. Many Christians relate the word forgiveness with the absence of punishment or the absence of bringing harm to the person forgiven. Calling the police to a mass murder brings a high potential that the murderer will be harmed or punished.

I believe in calling the police to use violence, if needed, to protect the innocent. It seems that the Pacifist Amish also believe in calling the police to use violence, if needed, to protect the innocent. So it is interesting to poll and discuss just what makes a pacifist a pacifist. It is also interesting to discuss forgiveness when your actions in calling the police bring with them the great possibility of physical harm and/or punishment to those they are forgiving.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Steven, I’m glad you got a chuckle out of my post, I chuckled when I wrote it. I must say though, I’m at a loss at trying to figure out where you’re going with this other than for sake of having a debate. What in your mind would have been the appropriate actions taken by the Amish people in that horrific situation?

If you’re point is that even a pacifist will come out swinging when backed into a corner then I’d argue that self preservation trumps pacifism. If you’re calling out these people for refusing to defend their country due to their religious beliefs which precludes them from engaing in the inherent violence of warfare then I somewhat see the hypocrisy.

Hello Chris,

If Christian pacifists use violence (police) to protect themselves just like the rest of the sencible people in America do, then what makes a pacifist a pacifist?

Yes, I beleive that the appropriate action to take when a mass murder is happening is to call the police who will go in with kevlar vests automatic weapons and sniper rifles to kill/capture the murderer to protect the innocent. But I am not a pacifist who professes non-violent means.

If George Bush forgave Osama Bin Laden, declared America a pacifist nation, and then continued on in our war on terror to kill/capture/punish Osama Bin Laden, would the world be exbounding great things as to our peaceful actions as many have done in the case of the Amish?

What do people see in the Christian pacifist Amish religion, who use violence to protect themselves just as America does, that would set the Amish apart from the rest of the sensible Americans, when both groups use violence to protect the innocent?

 

[kellie]

What do people see in the Christian pacifist Amish religion, who use violence to protect themselves just as America does, that would set the Amish apart from the rest of the sensible Americans, when both groups use violence to protect the innocent?

Steven,

I think the term “pacifist” needs to be looked at here.

Both the Amish and Christians are pacifists according to dictionary meaning …

opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds…

America’s political ideology is not pacifist.

Both the Amish, and the rest of America who call themselves pacifist would use violence as a defence when being attacked, but not as a solution to a dispute.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Steven,

I think the term “pacifist” needs to be looked at here.

Both the Amish and Christians are pacifists according to dictionary meaning …

opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds…

America’s political ideology is not pacifist.

Both the Amish, and the rest of America who call themselves pacifist would use violence as a defence when being attacked, but not as a solution to a dispute.

Hello kellie,

In Kosovo the Serbs decided to genocide, rape, torture and drive the Albanians out of their homes and their country. NATO forces responded with force, stoped the attrocities and protected the Albanians.

Are the attrocities committed by the Serbs what you, Christianity and/or the Amish, define as a “dispute”?

If the Amish pacifists were the ones being aniholated by the Serbs, would they have not called up NATO and informed them that their was a military colum of tanks, howitzers and armed troop carriers headed to their town to rape, torture and genocide them? What is the difference between one mass murderer in Pensilvania that the Amish Christian pacifist would kill to protect the innocent Amish and a whole bunch of mass murderers (the Serbs) in Kosovo, killing tens of thousands of people who are not the Amish? What makes one mass murder in rural America something bad that the Amish Christian pacifsits would use/allow violence to protect themselves, but a bunch of mass murderers killing tens of thousands of people on the other side of the world, only a “dispute” that the Amish would believe it to be evil to use force to protect?

This word “dispute” seems to be a big word. How do Christians and Amish really know that one attrocity is really an attrocity needing them to use violence as the answer and another attrocity is only a “dispute” where it would be evil for the Christians and Amish to use violence as the answer? I am with the Amish in their desire to use violence (police) to protect themselves. I cannot understand why the Amish are not with America in wanting the same kind of protection for the Albanians in Kosovo.

What do you think?