Pacifist Amish calling police to kill/capture gunman they forgave?

[Steven_Merten]

Do Amish pacifists see no problem in their religious pacifist beliefs in calling the police to use violence to protect them?

What we saw in recent real life actions of the Amish was not the Hollywoood Harison Ford movie “Witness” portrayal of the Amish. I wondered about the movie at the time. As I suspected the Amish would prefer to call the police to come in great numbers with kevlar vests, automatic weapons and sniper rifles rather than the Amish disallowing Harison’s little .38 six shot revolver.

What do you think?

Do Pacifists believe in the use of violence to protect themselves?

Do Pacifist Amish believe themselves to be evil in calling the police (violence) to protect themselves.

Is it that pacifist religions believe it is ok for others to use violence to protect pacifists but it would be evil for pacifists to use violence to protect themselves?

 

[psteichen]

Steve: I’m not sure what you are getting at. I admire the Amish for standing for what they believe. Are they wrong? Sure, we can say they are wrong because we know the truth we have in the Catholic faith. But I admire them none the less.

Within a few days of the recent school shooting they were contacting the shooters family to see if there was anything they could do to help. In media interviews you never saw a single Amish person express anger over what had happened. They were heart broken, but not vengeful. They never asked anyone to come kill their attacker. They did call the police to come help stop him. What are they supposed to do? They may be against violence, but I don’t think they are against defending their children when under brutal attack. I think many Catholics could learn from the love and forgiveness shown by the Amish.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Within a few days of the recent school shooting they were contacting the shooters family to see if there was anything they could do to help. In media interviews you never saw a single Amish person express anger over what had happened. They were heart broken, but not vengeful. They never asked anyone to come kill their attacker. They did call the police to come help stop him. What are they supposed to do? They may be against violence, but I don’t think they are against defending their children when under brutal attack. I think many Catholics could learn from the love and forgiveness shown by the Amish.

Hello psteichen,

Do you think it would be a good thing for President Bush to tell the world that America forgives Osama Bin Ladin and that all America wants to do is kill or capture him to protect the world as even the Pacifist Amish would do. America would have no problem genuinly assisting Osama’s family if America had their phone number. Why does the world automatically condemn America as vengeful and the pacifist Amish as non-vengeful when both the pacifist Amish and America believe in using violence, not vengence, to protect the innocent?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Do Amish pacifists see no problem in their religious pacifist beliefs in calling the police to use violence to protect them?

What we saw in recent real life actions of the Amish was not the Hollywoood Harison Ford movie “Witness” portrayal of the Amish. I wondered about the movie at the time. As I suspected the Amish would prefer to call the police to come in great numbers with kevlar vests, automatic weapons and sniper rifles rather than the Amish disallowing Harison’s little .38 six shot revolver.

What do you think?

Do Pacifists believe in the use of violence to protect themselves?

Do Pacifist Amish believe themselves to be evil in calling the police (violence) to protect themselves.

Is it that pacifist religions believe it is ok for others to use violence to protect pacifists but it would be evil for pacifists to use violence to protect themselves?

Steve,
I think you need to go ask pacifists what they believe.

All you can get here is what we think they believe which really will tell you nothing of what they truely believe.

 

[rayne89]

The Amish called the police for help. I’m sure the woman on the phone did not “Come here and shoot this person.” The Amish are peaceful but I don’t think they are true pacifists in a sense that they won’t defend themselves. Honestly I think there are very few people in the world who could do that. If one Amish man started beating up another I don’t think they believe he’s expected to lay there-I could be wrong. I’m pretty sure others in the community would step in and try to stop him. I don’t see anythinig peaceful about standing by and watching innocent people get hurt.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Steve,
I think you need to go ask pacifists what they believe.

All you can get here is what we think they believe which really will tell you nothing of what they truely believe.

Hello ByzCath,

Actually how Catholic and the world in general sees the actions of the pacifist Amish is of primary interest to me. I see quite a few Christians on these forums talking about how peaceful and forgiving the Amish were in the situation. Yet the Amish called the police, who the Amish caller knew would rely on violence not non-violent means, to protect the Amish. If the caller had pacifist religious views opposed to all violence by all people, they would have called in an Amish pacifist prayer group to go down and resolve the issue, not the police.

Secondary I am very interested in how the pacifst Amish see calling the police, who they know will use violence, if needed, to protect the innocent, in regard to their pacifist religious beliefs.

 

[BlindSheep]

Why does the world automatically condemn America as vengeful and the pacifist Amish as non-vengeful when both the pacifist Amish and America believe in using violence, not vengence, to protect the innocent?

I could be wrong, but it might have something to do with the fact that in the case of the Amish, there is a single, known attacker; whereas in the case of the US, there are multiple alleged, but not proven, attackers (as well as innocent bystanders) on whom violence is being used.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello All,

In my late teens, I too was confused as to how Christian pacifisim and forgiveness works.

Three days after the attepted assassination of Pope John Paul II, the Pope went to the prison and forgave the man. I asked my freind why the Pope did not have the man over to the Vatican for dinner or go to a resteraunt to forgive the man. My friend replied, “The Pope forgave the man! He did not let him out of prison!” Indeed Pope John Paul II increased the number of Vatican Swiss Guards (means of using violence to protect himself) after 9/11, not decrease the number.

If Christian pacifism means that America should forgive those imprisoned, capital punished, or killed in war, then I am all for America professing forgiveness to these people. As long as Christian pacifism does not mean that you stop imprisoning, punishing and going to war to protect the innocent, and only that you bear no hatred in your heart for those you imprison, punish and kill in war, let America proclaim forgiveness of our enemies the way the Christian religious pasifists do.

 

[St_John]

It’s a good thing the Amish don’t go on the internet to see this poll. I think the whole premise of it is extremely distasteful. These people are extremely peaceful, and some of their innocent daughters got slaughtered execution style, for Heavens sake! I’m sorry but this thread is terrible.

 

[psteichen]

Hello psteichen,

Do you think it would be a good thing for President Bush to tell the world that America forgives Osama Bin Ladin and that all America wants to do is kill or capture him to protect the world as even the Pacifist Amish would do. America would have no problem genuinly assisting Osama’s family if America had their phone number. Why does the world automatically condemn America as vengeful and the pacifist Amish as non-vengeful when both the pacifist Amish and America believe in using violence, not vengence, to protect the innocent?

Steve: I don’t think the Amish and President Bush are even mildly related topics. For the record I don’t think we should be a pacifist nation. Pacifist nations always end up either corrupted or conquered. But seriously, how the heck does this relate to the Amish?

 

[Steven_Merten]

It’s a good thing the Amish don’t go on the internet to see this poll. I think the whole premise of it is extremely distasteful. These people are extremely peaceful, and some of their innocent daughters got slaughtered execution style, for Heavens sake! I’m sorry but this thread is terrible.

Hello St. John,

What do you think of the threads calling America vengeful and non-forgiving in America’s fight to protect the Iraqie people and the world? The terrorists are murdering Iraqie children (“some of their innocent (Iraqie and WTC) daughters got slaughtered execution style, for Heavens sake!”) in same way the gunman was murdering Amish children. Why is America condemned, by many in these forums, as not being forgiving and desireing peace for doing the same thing, using violence to protect the innocent, that the Amish did?

Do you see those condemning America’s war on terror as equally “terrible”?

 

[system]

I’m glad to see zero responses to this poll. I saw your postings in another thread and it is clear you have some agenda you want to prove.

To be clear, I’m, saying that your mind is made up. You have made a poll that no one can answer without ending up on the losing side of one of your twisted arguments.

And finally, you keep saying the Amish KNEW what would happen when they called the police. That’s impossible.
I see Amish, Mennonite, and Quakers all over the area here, and I am POSITIVE they do not have the power to see into the future.

And dragging 9/11 into is a nasty red herring.

So, I’m curious…what did the Amish do to you, Steve?

 

[deb1]

Whoops! I made a mistake in voting. I read the first choice incorrectly, so one of the votes for the top choice doesn’t count. Sorry.

I thought you were asking if ***I ***thought that it was okay for the Amish to call police. Your poll is worded in a way that makes answering difficult for me.

 

[Steven_Merten]

I’m glad to see zero responses to this poll. I saw your postings in another thread and it is clear you have some agenda you want to prove.

To be clear, I’m, saying that your mind is made up. You have made a poll that no one can answer without ending up on the losing side of one of your twisted arguments.

And finally, you keep saying the Amish KNEW what would happen when they called the police. That’s impossible.
I see Amish, Mennonite, and Quakers all over the area here, and I am POSITIVE they do not have the power to see into the future.

And dragging 9/11 into is a nasty red herring.

So, I’m curious…what did the Amish do to you, Steve?

Hello Max,

I simply want to discuss and debate how Christians understand pacifism and forgiveness toward those who come to harm us.

If the Amish, Mennonite and Quakers do not understand that the police are not going to sit by idle having a prayer cerimony while innocent people are being murdered, then it is our Christian duty to educate them on this. When some one calls the police to come to a mass murder senario, they had better have full knowledge and understanding that using lethal force, if needed to protect the innocent, is going to be at the top of the police agenda.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Steve: I don’t think the Amish and President Bush are even mildly related topics. For the record I don’t think we should be a pacifist nation. Pacifist nations always end up either corrupted or conquered. But seriously, how the heck does this relate to the Amish?

Hello psteichen,

We all need to understand how Christian pasifism and forgiveness fits into using violence to protect ourselves.

Many people do not understand that Americans, Amish and Catholics can forgive and be pacifists and still kill to protect themsleves. This can be done at a police level or a military level.

America can learn Christian pacifism and forgiveness by examining how the Christian religious Amish forgive and practice pacifism, and still utalize lethal force, if nessessary, to protect the innocent.

 

[happy34]

love and forgiveness…yeah right i have a friend who know a friend who delkivered babies for 2 young girls who were raped by a family friend and shunned because “they brought it upon themselves” now unless they was weariung a hoolker outfit i dotn see how

 

[Valke2]

Hello psteichen,

Do you think it would be a good thing for President Bush to tell the world that America forgives Osama Bin Ladin and that all America wants to do is kill or capture him to protect the world as even the Pacifist Amish would do. America would have no problem genuinly assisting Osama’s family if America had their phone number. Why does the world automatically condemn America as vengeful and the pacifist Amish as non-vengeful when both the pacifist Amish and America believe in using violence, not vengence, to protect the innocent?

America did assist Bin Laden’s family. If I recall, the Bush administration arranged to fly them out of the country a few days after 9/11.

 

[psteichen]

love and forgiveness…yeah right i have a friend who know a friend who delkivered babies for 2 young girls who were raped by a family friend and shunned because “they brought it upon themselves” now unless they was weariung a hoolker outfit i dotn see how

happy34: Really, a friend of a friend? And what does your comment have to do with the topic of this thread? Or do you just hate Amish people and want to vent? I’m sure we can find bad Amish people if we look for them, just as we can find bad people in any other group. So what’s your point?

 

[St_John]

What is it on these forums since those girls were killed? It seems like some Catholics are feeling a little insecure with all the good press the Amish are getting. They showed alot of class in how they behaved. Also, they are a gutsy Christian sect that has managed to live a way of life that emulates the early Christian communities, somewhat like our Catholic orders, but for the laity.

They came to America in order to escape persecution in Europe, at, unfortunately, the hands of Catholics. That was at a time when our Church was very closely aligned with the governing powers in Europe, and there was intolerance for some Christian groups that dissented. This is a historical fact.

I admire the Amish. I think they’re a great example and I envy them their simple way of life. Because they are a small group, they are able to be very cohesive, and enforce their rules for the spiritual betterment of their members. Our Catholic parishes could learn from these people many things.

 

[psteichen]

They came to America in order to escape persecution in Europe, at, unfortunately, the hands of Catholics.

St John: I agree with everything you said. I just wanted to add one clarification lest the anti-Catholics that read this get the impression that it was all our fault.

The Amish are Anabaptists (a term which means re-baptizer)–a movement that also includes Mennonites, Brethren and others. The Anabaptists were considered radicals during the Reformation and were persecuted by both Catholics and Protestants. About The Amish