Padre Pio...and the Novus Ordo

[WetCatechumen]

I believe the Novus Ordo is valid. I concede that the protestant influence is evident and unsettling

I can’t help but feel that Jude has a point here - the ripping out of altar rails, the diminution in status of the tabernacle and even the architecture of some (nay, 99%) of modern churches is disturbing. As an ex-protestant it is disturbing to approach an altar that looks like a breakfast table. It is disconcerting to spend minutes trying to seek out the tabernacle (shunted off in the corner of the Church). I really do sympathise with those who feel this is also part of some diabolical conspiracy. That said I can’t beleive the Novus Ordo is invalid. Although why they disposed of the St.Michael prayer is a mystery?
Nevertheless, It is clearly still the sacrifice of the Mass. I believe the Lord would make it clearer to his humble servants if the mass was illegitimate or the consecration invalid. He would surely not deny millions of his sacramental grace when things are not clear cut.

I agree with Paul VI The smoke of Satan has entered the Church though and thus we pray for purification and a quick restoration of Beauty in the Sacrifice of the Mass. I pray that we are not going to end up with the One World Religion that has been prophecied. I trust the Novus Ordo is not a pre-cursor to all this as some have suggested.

I agree. When I go to the Divine Liturgy or the Tridentine Mass, I feel a continuity with apostolic worship. When I watch a video of Holy Qurbana or a Coptic Divine Liturgy, I get the same sense of the one and the same worship.

A reverent and properly celebrated Pauline Mass (like you’ll find at my parish, with the exception that it’s offered ad populum except on Solemnities) gives the same continuity. However, more typical Catholic churches I’ve attended feel very Protestantized.

I’m a new Catholic. I was received into the church this past Christmas. I’ve no idea what it was like before the new Mass. All I know is that when I go to the old Mass, it feels like a Divine Liturgy. When I got to the new Mass the way it’s typically celebrated, I feel like there’s a disconnect from ancient Christian worship.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Examples of the Protestant influence on the Novus Ordo: The priest beginning Mass by saying, “Good morning everyone.” This should be done before the sermon, not at the beginning of the Mass.

I have never heard a priest say “Good morning” before the beginning of Mass.

Check into Eastern Orthodox blogs and websites and you will find many comments concerning how Catholics have destroyed their beautiful liturgy. Again, if I am making you uncomfortable saying this, I cannot help it. It is a fact.

If you know anything of the Orthodox then you will also know that they are not happy with the EF Mass either as it lacks an explicit epiclesis.

The OF Mass is valid, if you do not think it is then you need to do a lot more studying.

As for the Third Secret, I do not believe that Malachi Martin ever saw it.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Examples of the Protestant influence on the Novus Ordo: The priest beginning Mass by saying, “Good morning everyone.” This should be done before the sermon, not at the beginning of the Mass.

Here is what the Missal states is the greeting (in the current soon to be revised translation):

Greeting

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Or: The grace and peace of God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Or: The Lord be with you.

 

[JMJ_coder]

If you know anything of the Orthodox then you will also know that they are not happy with the EF Mass either as it lacks an explicit epiclesis

To the point of some Orthodox claiming that the EF Liturgy is not valid.

 

[JReducation]

Padre Pio was very distressed at the changes coming from Vatican II. When a delegation from Rome visited him he pleaded with them, “to end this Council.” Padre Pio also
sought permission to continue to say the Traditional Latin Mass. He would not have approved of lay ministers, Protestant style hymns, etc.

The directives of our general chapter after the council were very clear. The mass was taken out of the consitution to allow the older friars who were priests to celebrate the Tridentine form without impunity. It as not until 1970 when the mass was reintroduced into the general constitutions. By that time, the Ordinary Form was in place and the General Chapter ruled that it would be the conventual mass, but that the superior of the house would decide if it was to be in Latin or the local language.

What was always in place, even during Padre Pio’s time was that we could not use Greogrian Chant at any liturgical function: mass or Divine Office, because it had been forbidden by St. Francis.

Vatican II released us from that obligation and Gregorian Chant was introduced in 1969.

Padre Pio did celebrate the Ordinary Form before he died, but in Latin. He did so at the request of the Guardian of the house. It was a request, not a mandate. The constitutions had no yet mandated the Ordinary Form. That would come after Padre Pio’s death.

Contrary to popular opinion, Capuchin Franciscans did not celbrate “private masses”, with few exceptions. The Rule of St. Francis is very clear on this issue. Only one priest and one mass per house. So if you have 10 friars in one house and five are priests, only one can celebrate mass for the entire community. The only time that you have more than one ordained friar celbrating mass is when you have a place that has various masses during the day such as a shrine, parish, retreat center, college, etc. If it’s the community mass, it’s one priest one mass.

There were several masses celebrated at San Giovanni. It was a place of pilgrimage and later they had the hospital up the road. But these were not private. The laity and the other friars attended these masses.

To the best of my knowledge the only time that Padre Pio celebrated mass outside of the view of the laity was when he was asked not to celebrate mass for the laity, but to limit himself to celebrating mass in the convent chapel. Even there he was not alone. San Giovanni served as the house of formation for that province. There were postulants, novices and simply professed friars in the house and they often attended mass with Padre Pio and even served for him.

There are many versions of Padre Pio’s life that add too much drama to the poor man’s life. The man was a holy man and had enough drama in his life without having to add more to it. He was also a very obedient man. To asume that he would have protested the Ordinary Form is quite a presumption. First of all, no friar has the right to protest what has been approved by the Church and the General Chapter. No friar has the right to protest what is mandated by the superior of the house. Second, Padre Pio was the most obedient soul that one could meet. His superiors often wrote about how obedient and humble he was before all authority. He gave his opinion when it was asked. When it was not asked, he kept it to himself like a good friar is supposed to do.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Geremia]

I think he foresaw it. I heard that he was glad he didn’t have to live to deal with it.

 

[OraLabora]

You make it sound like only old and irrelevant Catholics objected to the Novus Ordo Protestant Mass.

No, he’s referring to specific elements in the General Instructions that allowed older priests, for whom learning the new Mass would be an obstacle due to age, to continue with the EF. Same thing applies to the Breviary. It’s not an issue of “objecting”. It’s an issue of having to learn a whole new rite when you’re 80+.

Please inform yourself before lobbing accusations.

 

[CB_Catholic]

It is my impression that if Padre Pio had been directed to say the OF, he would have, and if he had any objections to it, no one would have known about them. He seemed to be an extremely obedient priest, even in the face of injustice to himself.

 

[JReducation]

It is my impression that if Padre Pio had been directed to say the OF, he would have, and if he had any objections to it, no one would have known about them. He seemed to be an extremely obedient priest, even in the face of injustice to himself.

Somehow people often forget that Padre Pio was a Capuchin Franciscan Brother. Too often lay people focus on the fact that he was a priest, which is true. But what people often forget is that he was first and foremost a Franciscan.

To us, the call to be a son of St. Francis is always the priority. To live the Gospel as St. Francis taught is is our first vocation. Our brothers do not join the order to be priests. You can be a priest and not be a Franciscan. You can join a diocese and remain a secular man.

When you join the Franciscan family you do so because you want to live the Gospel according to The Rule of St. Francis. The Rule of St. Francis does not mention the priesthood. There is a reason, Francis was not a priest. It was not his intention to start a community of priests. His intention was to gather a brotherhood of men: priests, teachers, scholars, cooks, farmers, doctors, preachers and so forth. This brotherhood places the Rule to live the Gospel above all other things.

In the Rule, our life in the Church is described as one of total obedience to St. Francis, the pope, the local bishop and to our brothers when they vote together in a chapter. Whatever the authorities commanded, a Franciscan saint obeys.

Padre Pio lived during an era of transition in the liturgy. However, the Superior General granted permission to those brothers who were ordained and were of a certain age to continue to celebrate the mass according the the ancient Franciscan tradition. Notice the term, “Franciscan Tradition.” The friars, have always had certain customs built into the celebration of the mass that were not common to other Catholics. There was a overlap between the Franciscan rubrics and the Roman rubrics. To this day, this is still observed.

We have our own sacramentary, lectionary, breviary and liturgical calendar. We have our own solemnities, feasts and memorials. At times, we deviate from what the rest of the Church celebrates and how she celebrates it. There are times when we follow what the rest of the Church does.

To imply that Padre Pio did what every priest prior to Vatican II did is incorrect. He did was what allowed to and commanded by the Franciscan tradition and rubrics. When these reubrics were revised, the older friars who were priests were allowed to continue with the old rubrics. He did not act on his own. He acted according to what was allowed to him by our superiors and our general chapter. Let’s not attribute things to him that would embarrass him, such as suggesting that he opposed this or that.

Like all other human beings, he had likes and dislikes. Like all of the sons of St. Francis, he only expressed his likes and dislikes when he received permission to do so. A Franciscan is not a man who liberally expresses his personal oppinion, likes, dislikes, wishes or desire. He is a disciplined man whose wishes and likes are regulated by the authority of his brothers. Our brothers, gathered together in what we call “chapter” decide what we like and dislike. We elect them to go to the chapter and make these decisions for us. According to the Rule of St. Francis, we are bound to obey the decisions of the Chapter under pain of mortal sin and excommunication.

Padre Pio was a saint. He never placed himself in a positon of conflict with the Church, St. Francis and his canonincally elected successors or his brothers. When he expressed a preference for one thing or another, it was because he had permission to do so. In those matters where no permission was granted, he did what the rest of us try to do each day. He kept his own counsel. He was far from being some lose canon who went shooting his mouth off when he was not allowed to do so, even if he believed that he was right. The Rule forbids that kind of freedom. The Franciscan must suffer like Christ suffered, without murmurring and he obeys like Christ obeyed.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[crazzeto]

The so called old liturgy is the true liturgy. Part of the third secret of fatima contains elements critical of changes in the liturgy and “an evil Council.” Padre Pio was
psychically attune to this. He objected to the Protestant version of the changed Mass, as did many priests. Quite many of them were NOT old. You make it sound like only old and irrelevant Catholics objected to the Novus Ordo Protestant Mass. Padre Pio exclaimed, “STOP this COUNCIL!” And Pope John XXIII, on his deathbed, regretted calling the Council. Read Michael Davies’ book, Pope John’s Council. Many YOUNG priests today object to the Protestant Novus Ordo Mass–it is not a question of old or young, but dangerous changes in the liturgy that were forced on the Council by a group of Dutch and German bishops–the Rhine group–who conned Pope Paul VI. Also, American bishops took drastic liberties after the Council, over the objections of the Pope, and allowed for communion in hand and altar girls–all forbidden by the Pope. You need to study this.

Source?

 

[thomas_jd]

Somehow people often forget that Padre Pio was a Capuchin Franciscan Brother. Too often lay people focus on the fact that he was a priest, which is true. But what people often forget is that he was first and foremost a Franciscan.

To us, the call to be a son of St. Francis is always the priority. To live the Gospel as St. Francis taught is is our first vocation. Our brothers do not join the order to be priests. You can be a priest and not be a Franciscan. You can join a diocese and remain a secular man.

When you join the Franciscan family you do so because you want to live the Gospel according to The Rule of St. Francis. The Rule of St. Francis does not mention the priesthood. There is a reason, Francis was not a priest. It was not his intention to start a community of priests. His intention was to gather a brotherhood of men: priests, teachers, scholars, cooks, farmers, doctors, preachers and so forth. This brotherhood places the Rule to live the Gospel above all other things.

In the Rule, our life in the Church is described as one of total obedience to St. Francis, the pope, the local bishop and to our brothers when they vote together in a chapter. Whatever the authorities commanded, a Franciscan saint obeys.

Padre Pio lived during an era of transition in the liturgy. However, the Superior General granted permission to those brothers who were ordained and were of a certain age to continue to celebrate the mass according the the ancient Franciscan tradition. Notice the term, “Franciscan Tradition.” The friars, have always had certain customs built into the celebration of the mass that were not common to other Catholics. There was a overlap between the Franciscan rubrics and the Roman rubrics. To this day, this is still observed.

We have our own sacramentary, lectionary, breviary and liturgical calendar. We have our own solemnities, feasts and memorials. At times, we deviate from what the rest of the Church celebrates and how she celebrates it. There are times when we follow what the rest of the Church does.

To imply that Padre Pio did what every priest prior to Vatican II did is incorrect. He did was what allowed to and commanded by the Franciscan tradition and rubrics. When these reubrics were revised, the older friars who were priests were allowed to continue with the old rubrics. He did not act on his own. He acted according to what was allowed to him by our superiors and our general chapter. Let’s not attribute things to him that would embarrass him, such as suggesting that he opposed this or that.

Like all other human beings, he had likes and dislikes. Like all of the sons of St. Francis, he only expressed his likes and dislikes when he received permission to do so. A Franciscan is not a man who liberally expresses his personal oppinion, likes, dislikes, wishes or desire. He is a disciplined man whose wishes and likes are regulated by the authority of his brothers. Our brothers, gathered together in what we call “chapter” decide what we like and dislike. We elect them to go to the chapter and make these decisions for us. According to the Rule of St. Francis, we are bound to obey the decisions of the Chapter under pain of mortal sin and excommunication.

Padre Pio was a saint. He never placed himself in a positon of conflict with the Church, St. Francis and his canonincally elected successors or his brothers. When he expressed a preference for one thing or another, it was because he had permission to do so. In those matters where no permission was granted, he did what the rest of us try to do each day. He kept his own counsel. He was far from being some lose canon who went shooting his mouth off when he was not allowed to do so, even if he believed that he was right. The Rule forbids that kind of freedom. The Franciscan must suffer like Christ suffered, without murmurring and he obeys like Christ obeyed.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank You for the detailed answer and also for the definition of obedience " obeys like Christ obeys"

 

[FrancisJude]

There are many different orders of Franciscans, ditto for Benedictines. Some orders tend to be more traditional. In my city the Franciscans operate a parish and they have a so called Young Adult Community Mass, which is basically an excuse to have rock music and guitars around the altar. The Eastern Orthodox would never do such a thing to their magnificent liturgy. The Mass is the Mass, you don’t need to make it appealing or alluring to young people. Many young people, in fact, feel quite insulted by this Mass. There are more traditionalist Franciscans and Benedictines that celebrate only the TLM. As for Padre Pio, he did prefer the TLM and he was not happy, generally, with what he saw happening at Vatican II. Research shows this; this fact pops up in many books and biographies. In fact, when Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre came to visit him, Padre Pio did not give the Archbishop his blessing but said that he [Padre Pio] 'was the one who should be asking for the Archbishop’s blessing." Padre Pio was graced with knowledge of the future, and no doubt he supported and admired the Archbishop’s insistence that the TLM should remain, and that Vatican II was treading in some very dangerous waters. Thanks God that Benedict VI is brining about a return to tradition! Thank God! Blessings.

 

[OraLabora]

There are many different orders of Franciscans, ditto for Benedictines.

The Benedictine order is divided into congregations. There is only one Benedictine order, though the Cistercians (both of the Common or Strict observance) also follow the Rule of Saint Benedict.

There is considerable variation between congregations and between houses within a congregation. For instance, in my congregation, Solesmes, there are houses that use the OF and houses that use the EF. Both groups though, have one thing in common and that is faithful and beautifully done liturgies with pride of place to Gregorian chant.

More so than in the other orders, Benedictines don’t belong to the order, they belong to their abbey and the supervision of their abbot. As a Benedictine Oblate, I don’t belong to the Benedictine Order. I belong to Abbaye Saint-Benoît-du-Lac of the Solesmes congregation.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

As for Padre Pio, he did prefer the TLM and he was not happy, generally, with what he saw happening at Vatican II. Research shows this; this fact pops up in many books and biographies.

I have heard this many times but have yet to see any proof of such a claim.

In fact, when Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre came to visit him, Padre Pio did not give the Archbishop his blessing but said that he [Padre Pio] 'was the one who should be asking for the Archbishop’s blessing." Padre Pio was graced with knowledge of the future, and no doubt he supported and admired the Archbishop’s insistence that the TLM should remain, and that Vatican II was treading in some very dangerous waters.

Archbishop Lefebvre signed the Vatican II documents only later to recant.

Also of course Padre Pio refused to give his blessing to a bishop, a bishop is a higher office, it is only correct that the bishop bless the priest.

Any one how knows anything about Padre Pio knows that he was all about obedience to the Church.

 

[JReducation]

There are many different orders of Franciscans, [snip] There are more traditionalist Franciscans and Benedictines that celebrate only the TLM. As for Padre Pio, he did prefer the TLM and he was not happy, generally, with what he saw happening at Vatican II. .

Let’s clarify some things here.

First: There are only three Franciscan Orders. Francis founded three orders: The Friars Minor, the Poor Sisters (Poor Clares) and the Brothers and Sisters of Penance.

Second: Each order has its own rule written by our Holy Father.

Third: Within each order, there are various obediences. These are not the same as orders. Each obedience is bound to the rule of its particular order.

Fourth: The difference between the obediences is in those matters that are not mentioned in the rule. On those matters mentioned in the rule, every obedience must comply with the rule of its order. The difference is in the constitutions.

Fifth: The constitutions are written to address points that St. Francis does not address in the Rule. Nothing in his rules can ever be changed except by a pope. The three rules are sealed.

Sixth: There is only one Franciscan obedience that has an indult to celebrate the EF exclusively, the Franciscan of the Immaculate. None of the other obediences have such an indult. The celebration of the EF is a matter that can only be approved by the Major Superior of each obedience, according to Summorum Pontificum and it must be done so according to common law (the constitutions), also found in Summorum Pontificum.

Seventh: Some constitutions allow the major superior to grant permission for the celebration of the EF, others do not. Superiors can only allow what they are allowed to authorize.

Eigth: There is nothing in our history that suggests that Padre Pio had any public opinion about the EF. He was an older man. He was attached to the only form of the mass that he knew. This form was not the TLM of which the posters on this thread are speaking. It was the Franciscan form of the TLM, governed by the rubrics in the Franciscan Missal, which were approved by the Church.

Ninth: He was never ordered to give up the form of the mass that he was used to celebrating. We never did that to our older men. The change in the mass was for friars who were under the age of 60. This was in a letter from the General Minister. Padre Pio was well over that age.

Tenth: His comments were made in conversations with individuals. It is highly offensive to his memory and to his brothers that those comments that he made in private conversations are taken into the market place and presented as if he had a bone to pick with the changes. There were many changes that he did not understand or that he did not like. To isolate this one is unfair to him. If you’re going to mention the points that confused him and were difficult for him to get used to, because of his age and the culture in which he lived, be fair and mention all of it.

Eleventh: The most likely reason that he rejected the idea of blessing the Archbishop is because there is a rule among Franciscans, “We do not bless bishops. We serve every bishop, good or bad, saint or sinner. We obey every bishop, right or wrong. We venerate every bishop, Catholic and Orthodox.” This is in the Constitutions. What the Archbishop was asking was not the usual and customary. The only time that a friar blesses a bishop is at his ordination, when the bishop asks for his blessing or if the bishop is a Franciscan and the friar is his superior (whether the friar is a priest or not), because superiors bless their subjects.

If there is one thing that must be said about Padre Pio, among many things is that he preached absolute and unquestioning obedience to the Church and to the order. Let’s not pit him against his own beliefs.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF