Padre Pio on The Universe

[openmind77]

God makes the rules. He can do what he wants…
So, would we have to have allegiance to the Vulcan Redeemer, and would Vulcans have to have allediance to Christ? No.
Each civilization has its own salvation plan. We only have to follow the commandments of Jesus, and the Vulcans only have to follow their Redeemer if this is how God chose to do things… Apparently nobody can find anything wrong with it…

Certainly God makes all the rules and can do whatever he wants, we are just debating Man’s interpretation of those rules.

If the Vulcan Redeemer as well as Jesus are both Sons of God, this seems to contradict the Biblical assertion that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, wouldn’t you say? Wouldn’t that be heresy?

 

[3DOCTORS]

The conflict if any between the existence of an alien civilization and the bible, is in the story of creation and that of Adam and Eve. Even if we don’t take it literally as many people do, the story appears incomplete. Does the story apply to aliens? Did the aliens have there own Eden? Did they fall or not? And then the question of Jesus and his mission - does his suffering redeem the aliens or do they not need redemption at all? Do they have their own Christ who redeems them?

Of course the big issue would be when the aliens finally land on earth - what will their reaction be when someone explains to them that Jesus is their Savior?

And there may be different ways - even as significant as the Incarnation is, maybe there is a way God speaks to the souls of another intelligent species - if it is fallen and in need of redemption - to accomplish that purpose.

God makes the rules. He can do what he wants.

I have posted the following on this forum and the catholic.org forum,
but…
one more time.

If God chooses to do so,
each civilization could have its own Redeemer. The Vulcan Redeemer would be the Son of God, but he would have a Vulcan body and soul.

God makes the rules. There is no reason that the Son of God couldn’t take up to himself a Earth man and a Vulcan man.

God makes the rules.

So, would we have to have allegiance to the Vulcan Redeemer, and would Vulcans have to have allediance to Christ? No.
Each civilization has its own salvation plan. We only have to follow the commandments of Jesus, and the Vulcans only have to follow their Redeemer if this is how God chose to do things.

I have proposed this scenario on the catholic.org forum years ago. On that forum people take no nonsense. Anything that smells of heresy or deviation from Church teachings is instantly slammed.
Nobody has ever contested my idea. Apparently nobody can find anything wrong with it.

---

However, I have also said that God could also choose to keep civilizations forever separate from each other, both in this life and the next.
Why would he do that? I don’t know, but if that’s what he chooses that’s what will be done.

Well, as a person who’s writing Catholic themed science fiction, I appreciate your post!

There might be races that haven’t fallen, or as I said above, a different means or method by which God provides what they need spiritually for redemption.

IMO, we should avoid extremes of both ends; what I mean by that is on the one hand being too gullible about it, believing the Greys are already abducting people vs. being afraid of or annoyed by mention of the idea of extraterrestrials of any kind existing anywhere in the Universe. To think that as Catholics it’s a “waste of time” to think about the topic seems a little narrow-minded given the intelligence God gave us and the thirst for knowledge - and the ability to sit quietly in awe of mysteries we can’t currently unravel. I mean, if it doesn’t interest you personally, fine, but there’s no need to snark about it for those of us who do find it interesting.

Suggested reading: C.S. Lewis’s Space Trilogy.

 

[empther]

If the Vulcan Redeemer as well as Jesus are both Sons of God, this seems to contradict the Biblical assertion that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, wouldn’t you say? Wouldn’t that be heresy?

No.

Jesus is a divine person, not a human person.
Therefore,
if the Son of God can take up to himself a human nature, he can also take up to himself a Vulcan nature and remain one Person.

The Father accepts the sacrifice of the Son’s human nature as reparation for the sins of the human race on Earth. There is no reason why he couldn’t do the same with the Vulcan Redeemer.

“I have overcome the world” said Jesus after the resurrection. But he was only referring to Earth because that was his mission as man, but with divine personhood. The Vulcan Redeemer can say the same about Vulcan.

Mary is called the Mother of God, but only because she was the vessel that provided the human nature of Jesus. There was no change to the Son. Therefore, redemption can be done more than once.

 

[tafan]

No.

Jesus is a divine person, not a human person.
Therefore,
if the Son of God can take up to himself a human nature, he can also take up to himself a Vulcan nature and remain one Person.

The Father accepts the sacrifice of the Son’s human nature as reparation for the sins of the human race on Earth. There is no reason why he couldn’t do the same with the Vulcan Redeemer.

“I have overcome the world” said Jesus after the resurrection. But he was only referring to Earth because that was his mission as man, but with divine personhood. The Vulcan Redeemer can say the same about Vulcan.

Mary is called the Mother of God, but only because she was the vessel that provided the human nature of Jesus. There was no change to the Son. Therefore, redemption can be done more than once.

Are you saying Christ could have more than two natures? That seems to contradict Catholic teaching, does it not?

464 The **unique and altogether singular event **of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man

481 Jesus Christ possesses **two **natures, one divine and the other human, not confused, but united in the one person of God’s Son.

(boldness added by me)

Since the only evidence we have of aliens is the vastness of the universe, it is really, really vast. It makes no more sense to say there are just a few planets with intelligent life than there is just one. So logically, you must take the position that there are thousands upon thousands of intelligent alien species. I have a really hard time with Jesus Christ having perhaps thousands upon thousands natures.

 

[openmind77]

No.

Jesus is a divine person, not a human person.
Therefore,
if the Son of God can take up to himself a human nature, he can also take up to himself a Vulcan nature and remain one Person.

The Father accepts the sacrifice of the Son’s human nature as reparation for the sins of the human race on Earth. There is no reason why he couldn’t do the same with the Vulcan Redeemer.

“I have overcome the world” said Jesus after the resurrection. But he was only referring to Earth because that was his mission as man, but with divine personhood. The Vulcan Redeemer can say the same about Vulcan.

Mary is called the Mother of God, but only because she was the vessel that provided the human nature of Jesus. There was no change to the Son. Therefore, redemption can be done more than once.

Then you are saying that the Son can take more than one incarnation but ONLY as long as they are of different species? Or can the Son also take up a human nature more than once in different humans? The second one is heresy but the first is not?

The Son himself will of course, remain One Person.

 

[Nimzovik]

:hypno:

 

[Memaw]

Are you saying Christ could have more than two natures? That seems to contradict Catholic teaching, does it not?

(boldness added by me)

Since the only evidence we have of aliens is the vastness of the universe, it is really, really vast. It makes no more sense to say there are just a few planets with intelligent life than there is just one. So logically, you must take the position that there are thousands upon thousands of intelligent alien species. I have a really hard time with Jesus Christ having perhaps thousands upon thousands natures.

There’s no end to the imagination of some, so it seems. I think Our Lord gave us so much to contemplate on, right here on earth, and while 2,000 years later were still in awe of HIS Mysteries, I think I will keep my feet as well as my heart right down here.God Bless, Memaw

 

[Nimzovik]

A practical answer.

However God gave ‘enquiring minds’ to some folks for a reason methinks,

 

[Memaw]

A practical answer.

However God gave ‘enquiring minds’ to some folks for a reason methinks,

Me thinks time wasted on silly stuff is really time wasted. God Bless, Memaw

 

[tafan]

Me thinks time wasted on silly stuff is really time wasted. God Bless, Memaw

If it provides an opportunity to study and reflect on the Church’s teaching about creation, perhaps it is not wasted at all.
I

 

[Nimzovik]

To meditate on creation is to meditate on God. Yes?

However, I for one, know that such is way beyond me and I thinks it is not wise for me personally to aspire to such ethereal mental machinations extensively. However I am happy to listen to the labors of others that have endeavored to mine this subject.

Hence the : With butter!!

 

[empther]

Are you saying Christ could have more than two natures? That seems to contradict Catholic teaching, does it not?

Phrased the way you did, it doesn’t make much sense.

Better to say…

the Divine Person, the Son of God, has two natures,
one eternal and divine,
and one created.

The created nature may include human, Vulcan, and many others,
but is still only one nature.

A “nature” is not identical to a “species”. There are many species of animals, but they all have the nature of animals.

Thus all men are of one family, one mystical body, which is why original sin is passed down to us,
and why the sacrifice of Christ’s human nature could pay for our sins.

 

[Memaw]

If it provides an opportunity to study and reflect on the Church’s teaching about creation, perhaps it is not wasted at all.
I

The opportunity to study and reflect on GOD"S creation of Earth and us should be enough to fill a lifetime. Everything else is to far away for us to ever know what’s beyond the stars. Wild speculation benefits no one. The Church doesn’t teach anything about life on other planets. God Bless, Memaw

 

[tafan]

Phrased the way you did, it doesn’t make much sense.

Better to say…

the Divine Person, the Son of God, has two natures,
one eternal and divine,
and one created.

The created nature may include human, Vulcan, and many others,
but is still only one nature.

A “nature” is not identical to a “species”. There are many species of animals, but they all have the nature of animals.

Thus all men are of one family, one mystical body, which is why original sin is passed down to us,
and why the sacrifice of Christ’s human nature could pay for our sins.

But that is not what the church teaches. We know that Christ has two natures: divine and human ( the church is more specific than just saying a created nature). And remember: the incarnation is a single and unique event.

 

[openmind77]

Phrased the way you did, it doesn’t make much sense.

Better to say…

the Divine Person, the Son of God, has two natures,
one eternal and divine,
and one created.

The created nature may include human, Vulcan, and many others,
but is still only one nature.

A “nature” is not identical to a “species”. There are many species of animals, but they all have the nature of animals.

Thus all men are of one family, one mystical body, which is why original sin is passed down to us,
and why the sacrifice of Christ’s human nature could pay for our sins.

However, the created nature including both human and Vulcan sounds like two (or many) separate incarnations - the Jesus that the Bible talks abut definitely did not have a Vulcan nature. Is multiple incarnations for the Son not heresy?

 

[fhansen]

I’m pretty sure my some of my wife’s in-laws are human/alien crosses. Or maybe there wasn’t* enough* alien blood-not sure either way at this point.

 

[empther]

But that is not what the church teaches. We know that Christ has two natures: divine and human ( the church is more specific than just saying a created nature). And remember: the incarnation is a single and unique event.

Well, you don’t expect Pope Francis to start talking about Vulcan, do you?

If we ever detect signs of another intelligent civilization,
the question of how other civilizations are redeemed will have to be addressed.

The incarnation is a single and unique event for each civilization.
How could the crucifixion in Palestine 2,000 years ago save the people on a planet a billion light years away? They would never even know about it, so they would have no true religion. How, then, could they be saved?

 

[3DOCTORS]

I’m going out on a speculative limb here - perfectly willing to “recant” if what I say is potentially heretical or just plain stupid.

But before I do, let me just say it seems likely we might find extraterrestrial life at some point because we not only have discovered exoplanets, we’ve discovered earthlike ones within habitable zones of their stars and as our technology continues to develop we’ll discover more. americaspace.com/?p=33062

Now whether any life we discover in the near or even distant future is sentient and ensouled - here’s where I go to speculation - the paradigm for their salvation history might be different from ours because God would know what they need and could comprehend. And that’s assuming they have fallen and therefore need salvation - maybe they havent and don’t.

 

[tafan]

Well, you don’t expect Pope Francis to start talking about Vulcan, do you?

If we ever detect signs of another intelligent civilization,
the question of how other civilizations are redeemed will have to be addressed.

The incarnation is a single and unique event for each civilization.
How could the crucifixion in Palestine 2,000 years ago save the people on a planet a billion light years away? They would never even know about it, so they would have no true religion. How, then, could they be saved?

As I said above, I tend to believe we are alone in the universe, for many reasons, both scientific and theological, that makes the most sense to me.

But if they do exist, I do not know how they could be saved. But all of your formulations, including this latest one that the incarnation is a single and unique event or each civilization, are heretical IMO. Sorry for the strong language, but …

The wording in the catechism is “unique and all together singular”, doesn’t leave much room for multiple incarnations across civilizations. Nor does the Church’s definitions on Christ’s nature.

 

[Memaw]

As I said above, I tend to believe we are alone in the universe, for many reasons, both scientific and theological, that makes the most sense to me.

But if they do exist, I do not know how they could be saved. But all of your formulations, including this latest one that the incarnation is a single and unique event or each civilization, are heretical IMO. Sorry for the strong language, but …

The wording in the catechism is “unique and all together singular”, doesn’t leave much room for multiple incarnations across civilizations. Nor does the Church’s definitions on Christ’s nature.

AMEN. Memaw