Padre Pio quote (really?)

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Hi all!

I’ve been debating whether or not I should comment on this thread. I hope my Catholic friends here at CAF will please believe me when I say that I am not motivated by anti-Catholicism & that I am not anti-Catholic.

I will concede that Pope Pius IX’s alleged statement on my people’s canine qualities cannot be positively attributed to him directly and therefore, I will not relate to it.

What gives us more pause about the campaign to beatify Pope Pius IX is the Mortara affair and his record toward the Jews of the Papal States, especially after Mazzini’s ouster in 1848 when he reinstituted many of the restrictions that he had previously lifted.

I submit:
But most critics focused on the taking of Edgardo Mortara by papal guards in 1858. Church officials ordered the boy removed from his Jewish family in Bologna after hearing he had been secretly baptized by a Catholic housemaid. Despite an international campaign, Pius IX refused to return him to his family. Mortara later became a priest.
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Amos Luzzatto, president of the Union of Italian Jewish Communities, called it “the biggest wound that remains in the Italian Jewish world.”
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Descendants of Mortara called Pius’ beatification “a reopening of a wound.”
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“We always thought that this ordeal was in the past,” said Elena Mortara, Edgardo’s great-great niece, surrounded by the Mortara family. “We are sorry that it has become a scandal of the present.”
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Link: tinyurl.com/6dd4t
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For more details on the Mortara affair, see tinyurl.com/42bhv.

See also tinyurl.com/6elh7 for an interview with David Kertzer, the author of The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara (tinyurl.com/5ec7r).

I have heard that when the current Pope John Paul II (whom I have tremendous respect for; see forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=287659&highlight=Pope#post287659) was a priest in Poland just after World War II he pointedly refused to baptize a Jewish child whose parents had hidden him with Catholics, because the parents had not consented to the baptism. I also know of more than a few instances in which Jewish children were hidden in Polish monasteries/convents during the war, and the monks/nuns refused to baptize minor childre (see tinyurl.com/6kwjs).

I have done my best to be as un-antagonistic & un-offensive as possible here since I really don’t want to antagonize/offend anybody.

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
I DONT UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM HERE??? PAUL CLEARLY CALLS THE JEWS “ENEMIES OF GOD” IN ROMANS CHAPTER 11!!! WHY CANT PIO BE USING IT IN THE SAME CONTEXT AS PAUL??? PEOPLE GET OVER IT IT IS NO BIG DEAL!!! SORRY TO YELL BUT PEOPLE PLEASE!!!
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Hi all!

Be well!

ssv 👋
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Hi, stillsmallvoice.

Certainly for me, I would identify myself with the actions of John Paul 2 rather than Pio Nono.

My best to you.
 
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marineboy:
I DONT UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM HERE??? PAUL CLEARLY CALLS THE JEWS “ENEMIES OF GOD” IN ROMANS CHAPTER 11!!! WHY CANT PIO BE USING IT IN THE SAME CONTEXT AS PAUL??? PEOPLE GET OVER IT IT IS NO BIG DEAL!!! SORRY TO YELL BUT PEOPLE PLEASE!!!
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Marineboy,Paul was back there in time where the Jews themselves had seen Jesus or their family had.I still don’t believe that Saint Padre Pio said it I have read things by him and about him,and he was not happy with Hitler at all and said he wished he could put him in a bird cage so he could carry him around in it and let him hear what other people say about him.God Bless
 
Hi Stillsmallvoice. You may very well know this already, if so please forgive me, but this thread is concerning Padre Pio, who is a different person that Pope Pius IX. I just wanted to make sure you realized that they are two different people.

Grace and Peace,
Scott
 
lLsa not all Jews, in fact very few, Jews actually saw Christ in person. Even if they did it still stand that paul said it. He also praises them as the "chosen’ ones. I dont see the problem!! one could call the Jews “enemies” as long as they meant it the way Paul meant it in Romans 11. Stop trying to sugar coat it. YOU SOUND LIKE JOHN KERRY!!! (JOKE)
 
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marineboy:
one could call the Jews “enemies” as long as they meant it the way Paul meant it in Romans 11. Stop trying to sugar coat it. YOU SOUND LIKE JOHN KERRY!!!
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If not being an anti-Semite makes you like JohnKerry, then God bless Senator Kerry.
 
I have read all of this thread. All of you have made valuable posts.
Marineboy is correct in his statements. But maybe he is a bit narrow. You decide.

From my Douay - Rheims: Romans11:v 28 and 29, 28. According to the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sake: but according to election, they are most dear for the sake of the fathers. 29. For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance.

Commentary: According to the gospel, indeed they are enemies for your sake. They see you have recieved the gospel and therefore enemies of you and God. They have rejected Him for the present.Because God once made them elect, because of their forefathers they are dear to Him.The calling of God has no recompense in as much as God is unchangeable, His promises cannot fail.

( From my small mind comes the thought God has not given up on Israel. And Paul is preaching to an entirely different socio-economic group than exists today. Are Jews of the present the enemies of Catholocism? That is a relative question.)
 
I am not being narrow. I am saying something that is true. If Pio said this, I am not saying he did, than i could see how this could be correct since Paul says essentially the same thing in Romans 11. In one sense they are enemies of God since they were “chosen” yet have rejected the gospel. what is the big deal??? Was Paul anti -semetic??? my JOhn Kerry quote was a joke. It was referring to how JOhn kerry flip flops on issues and doesnt say what is plain to see. no offense people, but please stop trying to explain away everything that is a bit harsh. The gospel is harsh in some respects!!!
 
Hi all!

Scott, you posted:
Hi Stillsmallvoice. You may very well know this already, if so please forgive me, but this thread is concerning Padre Pio, who is a different person that Pope Pius IX. I just wanted to make sure you realized that they are two different people.
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And my learned reply is :eek: and then :o .

Oooops!

Hmmm…I guess that I’ve got more to learn about Catholicism than I thought.

Well, when you next visit Jerusalem, the first round (beer, coffee, whatever you like) is on me!

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Hi all!

Well, when you next visit Jerusalem, the first round (beer, coffee, whatever you like) is on me!

ssv 👋
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Now there’s a most generous offer! I must say, though, that you’re likely to find yourself in Pittsburgh before I find myself in Isreal. While I would LOVE to visit the Holy Land, I’m far too afraid of all the violence in that part of the world right now.

God bless you and keep you safe,
Scott
 
Hi Scott!

Um, I’m from Pittsburgh. My parents still live in Squirrel Hill & I’m wearing a Steelers cap even as I post. I was last in the 'burgh just over 3 years ago.

One of the problems with living here is that Israel usually makes the news only when something or someone goes kaboom. Stuff that’s good, beautiful, or just plain ordinary, makes for very unsexy headlines & poor ratings. This mfa.gov.il/mfa/israel%20beyond%20politics/ is from our Foreign Ministry web page & is a running feature emtitled “Israel Beyond Politics”.

So, I am planning to visit the 'burgh sometime next year for my 25th high school reunion. Let’s quaff a couple at Station Square!

Be well (and remember to think Black and Gold thoughts)!

ssv 👋
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Hi Scott!

Um, I’m from Pittsburgh. My parents still live in Squirrel Hill & I’m wearing a Steelers cap even as I post. I was last in the 'burgh just over 3 years ago.

So, I am planning to visit the 'burgh sometime next year for my 25th high school reunion. Let’s quaff a couple at Station Square!

Be well (and remember to think Black and Gold thoughts)!

ssv 👋
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Hahahaha!!! How crazy is that?!?!?! Cool - I went to school at CMU, so I’m real familiar with Squirrel Hill. Be sure to let me know when you’re back in town, and we will definitely have a few at Station Square! And yeah, let’s say a prayer for the Steelers this week (though I think the real test will come next week).

Take care!
 
This is a question.

For several years I have had a problem with exactly who were the Israelites as is written in the Bible and who are the Jews of modern times.

For me the word “anti-semitic” is reserved for the modern Jews who are not Israel of old. Semite is a rather modern term isn’t it?

Last year I called a talk show that had a rabbi on and asked ,“What’s the difference between Jews and Israelites.” That rabbi didn’t answer my question.

Marineboy, please know that I agree with you.( I said “a bit narrow”, not a lot.)
 
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Exporter:
Marineboy, please know that I agree with you.( I said “a bit narrow”, not a lot.)
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The point that Marineboy is missing is this: People are claiming that Padre Pio said or wrote the words originally in question. The problem with this claim is that no one can demonstrate that Padre Pio is actually the author of the quote. IOW, the quote in question is, according to all available evidence, not attributable to Padre Pio.

Second point: Look at the sites I’ve linked above where this apparently bogus quote is referenced. They are all either anti-Catholic, explicitly anti-Semitic, and/or white supremacist.

So, not only does it appear that people are putting words into the mouth of holy man, but they are doing so in order to further agendas contrary to the Christian faith.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
michance, can you help me with what I consider an answerable question? Whats the difference between the Isrealites of the Bible and the Modern Jews? When did Isrealites become Jews OR did they not become Jews? Then how do you know?

marineboy I am not being narrow. I am saying something that is true. If Pio said this, I am not saying he did, than i could see how this could be correct since Paul says essentially the same thing in Romans 11. In one sense they are enemies of God since they were “chosen” yet have rejected the gospel.​

I had said that Marineboy was being a bit narrow.
He says here he is not being narror. This may be a problem in communication. Marineboy says the word “if” when he is applying Paul’s words to the Padre’s supposed quote. I have read some of Pio’s quotes and he was quite straight forward. I do not think there is evidence that he was anti-semantic.

You see I have a problem. I ask,"Who are the Isrealites? Who are the Jews? When did the Jews arise? Does Paul talk about “Jews”? I have an educated guess that Jews and Isrealites are not one and the same.
 
I edited Exporter’s text to add the numbering.
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Exporter:
michance, can you help me with what I consider an answerable question?
  1. Whats the difference between the Isrealites of the Bible and the Modern Jews?
  2. When did Isrealites become Jews OR did they not become Jews?
  3. Then how do you know?
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I’m not quite sure I understand the questions, but I’ll take a stab at them.
  1. When the Bible discusses the Israelites, it seems to always be referring to the Hebrew people descended from Abraham as promised by God’s convenant. Thus, to be an Israelite meant to be of the Jewish faith.
This is not true today. Israel is a secular state. Not all Israelites are of the Jewish faith. Likewise, not all people of Jewish ancestry today are necessarily of the Jewish faith. From what I’ve read, people of Jewish ancestry who actually practice Judaism are becoming a minority among themselves.
  1. Search me. It seems the answer depends on what you mean by “Israelite.” Do you mean Israelite in the ancient sense or as it relates to the modern state of Israel? In the former case, one is born an Israelite. I’m not sure what the status of converts would be. In the case of the modern state of Israel, one is an Israelite if one is a citizen of Israel, in the same way that one is an American if one is a citizen of the United States.
  2. I’m not quite sure I do know, but what I’ve written seems reasonable to me. 🙂
– Mark L. Chance.
 
It could definitely be taken out of context. So what… look at some of the comments by St. Augustine and St. Chrysostom on the Jewish.

Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future. Look at Peter he said things before he was an apostle that were not good.
 
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Exporter:
If the Church of Rome has said Padre Pio is a Saint…then Padre Pio IS a Saint. A Saint would not make that statement. Therefore it is not a true statement.👋
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Saint John Chrysostom:

The Jews do not worship God but devils [Sermon I:3, based on John 8:19], so that all their feasts are unclean [Sermon I:6]. God hates them, and indeed has always hated them. But since their murder of Jesus He allows them no time for repentance

AND AGAIN…%between%

*The whole sermon is an insulting sneer at their misfortunes and exile, and a gloating over the certainty of their damnation. Cf. the sermon ’ That Christ is God: addressed to Jews and Pagans ’ in the same volume]. When it is clear that God hates them, it is the duty of Christians to hate them too; and he begins his sixth sermon with a revolting analogy of a beast in the arena, who has tasted blood, and longs for it again. So he, Chrysostom, having once begun to denounce the Jews, cannot leave off [Sermon VI:1] for he who has no limits in his love of Christ must have no limits in his battle with those who hate Him [Sermon VII:1]. ’ I hate the Jews ’ he exclaims roundly, for they have the Law and they insult it’. *

See writing at: fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.html

Jeff
 
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marineboy:
I DONT UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM HERE??? PAUL CLEARLY CALLS THE JEWS “ENEMIES OF GOD” IN ROMANS CHAPTER 11!!! WHY CANT PIO BE USING IT IN THE SAME CONTEXT AS PAUL??? PEOPLE GET OVER IT IT IS NO BIG DEAL!!! SORRY TO YELL BUT PEOPLE PLEASE!!!
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I think it makes a difference that it was jews who actually made those statements in the new testament. But gentiles have been grafted in, therefor us gentiles ought not become arrogant.

Jeff
 
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