Pagan Christianity?

[Daniel_Marsh]

Have you ever wondered why we Christians do what we do for church every Sunday morning? Why do we “dress up” for church? Why does the pastor preach a sermon each week? Why do we have pews, steeples, choirs, and seminaries? This volume reveals the startling truth: most of what Christians do in present-day churches is not rooted in the New Testament, but in pagan culture and rituals developed long after the death of the apostles. Coauthors Frank Viola and George Barna support their thesis with compelling historical evidence in the first-ever book to document the full story of modern Christian church practices.

paganchristianity.org/
barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Resource&ResourceID=309

 

[mchale]

This looks more like an advertisement than a real post.

Make specific claims that they might be addressed please.

–
Bill

 

[Fidelis]

:yawn: There must be eighty-bazillion threads on this and it has been refuted as many times.

In addition, exhaustive rebuttals are easily found elsewhere on this very website:

catholic.com/library/anti_catholicism.asp

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Ok Bill, the book in my op shows that even non-catholic churches of all stripes has adopted “paganism” in their christianity, even those groups that claim otherwise.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Note: I heard the author on the radio today. It is my impression that no doctrine is discuss as having pagan origins. Only that the churches have adopted “pagan” cultural things like wearing a suit, lighting candles for light, sitting in a pew.

 

[mchale]

Note: I heard the author on the radio today. It is my impression that no doctrine is discuss as having pagan origins. Only that the churches have adopted “pagan” cultural things like wearing a suit, lighting candles for light, sitting in a pew.

How many suits existed in the era when Paganism was common? Everybody used candles for lighting. Pews were not common in Churches until relatively recently, long after Pagans were effective gone from the scene.

–
Bill

 

[theistgal]

Note: I heard the author on the radio today. It is my impression that no doctrine is discuss as having pagan origins. Only that the churches have adopted “pagan” cultural things like wearing a suit, lighting candles for light, sitting in a pew.

You’re talking about practices here, though, not doctrines. A “doctrine” is a belief and I don’t think you can show that any Christian doctrines are pagan in origin.

As for the practices, there are undoubtedly many similarities, because human beings tend to express themselves in similar ways when they go to worship. But that doesn’t mean that what they’re worshipping is the same.

(Oh, and btw, this particular book may be new but the idea that there are similarities between Christianity and paganism is a very old one. G.K. Chesterton and C.S. Lewis, just to name two, have commented on this topic in their writings. “There is no new thing under the sun.” (Eccl. 1:9) )

 

[bpbasilphx]

Since when were there pagan seminaries?

 

[LDNCatholic]

Note: I heard the author on the radio today. It is my impression that no doctrine is discuss as having pagan origins. Only that the churches have adopted “pagan” cultural things like wearing a suit, lighting candles for light, sitting in a pew.

I wasn’t aware clothing light and seating were pagan traps. To avoid sin shall I stand naked in the dark?

Edit: Shouldn’t stand either, you know what those crafty pagans are like, always standing on their legs and moving about.

Turns out pagans also do nudity. Thats me sunk

And just so we’re three for three here, pagans also have night time! Whatever shall i do?!

Ok sarcasm off

 

[MasterPo]

I happened to come across a copy of the book at my local bookstore. The book is --unintentionally, I’m sure–quite funny. The ignorance the authors display is truly impressive; its hard work writing a book where practically every page contains some gross errors concerning the Greco-Roman world. Perhaps not too surprising: the book is published by a third rate evangelical press-such presses have been publishing pseudo history for years, with the rather obvious agenda of claiming ancient church history as their own. The details vary considerably, but the general story these books convey are the same:the early church was evangelical in character, and only later does it become Catholic.‘Pagan Christianity’ adheres to this standard evangelical delusion.
Where does one begin with a book this bad? Well for starters, what exactly do they mean by the word ‘pagan’. The word ‘pagan’ means country bumpkin;a phrase used by many-think HL Mencken–to describe evangelicals.The movie ‘Deliverance’ after all, isn’t set in ancient Rome.So its literal meaning is not at all what they are referring to.If they mean Greco Roman customs, they would have to discuss the fact the the New Testament is written in Greek; the most obvious evidence of the influence Greek thought and traditions–paganism–had on Christian beliefs and practices is the very language their scriptures were written in. But they do not include the NT in discussing the Greek influences in Christianity.The apostle Paul’s’ obvious pagan credentials–he changed his name from a Jewish one-Saul-to a Roman one-Paul; is a proud Roman citizen-‘I was born a citizen’! (acts 28); and was clearly educated, at least in part, by Greek tutors–is never mentioned. But Paul, like the NT, are sacred to protestants, and so they simply don’t include them under the rubric ’ .Does ‘pagan’, then, refer to the customs of the various barbarian groups-the Goths, Visigoths, Gauls, Saxons, etc? No-they converted too late; Christianity was already the dominant religion of the mediterranean world by the time they were absorbed into it. So what does ‘pagan’ really mean? It means pretty much those catholic’/orthodox beliefs and practices that evangelicals do not believe in.When they dislike a Catholic belief or practice,they call it ‘pagan’.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I happened to come across a copy of the book at my local bookstore. The book is --unintentionally, I’m sure–quite funny. The ignorance the authors display is truly impressive; its hard work writing a book where practically every page contains some gross errors concerning the Greco-Roman world.

That sounds eminently believable​

Perhaps not too surprising: the book is published by a third rate evangelical press-such presses have been publishing pseudo history for years, with the rather obvious agenda of claiming ancient church history as their own. The details vary considerably, but the general story these books convey are the same:the early church was evangelical in character, and only later does it become Catholic.‘Pagan Christianity’ adheres to this standard evangelical delusion.
Where does one begin with a book this bad?

If it’s that bad, I think we can be confident it will sell like hot cakes ​

Well for starters, what exactly do they mean by the word ‘pagan’. The word ‘pagan’ means country bumpkin;a phrase used by many-think HL Mencken–to describe evangelicals.The movie ‘Deliverance’ after all, isn’t set in ancient Rome.So its literal meaning is not at all what they are referring to.If they mean Greco Roman customs, they would have to discuss the fact the the New Testament is written in Greek; the most obvious evidence of the influence Greek thought and traditions–paganism–had on Christian beliefs and practices is the very language their scriptures were written in. But they do not include the NT in discussing the Greek influences in Christianity.The apostle Paul’s’ obvious pagan credentials–he changed his name from a Jewish one-Saul-to a Roman one-Paul; is a proud Roman citizen-‘I was born a citizen’! (acts 28); and was clearly educated, at least in part, by Greek tutors–is never mentioned. But Paul, like the NT, are sacred to protestants, and so they simply don’t include them under the rubric ’ .Does ‘pagan’, then, refer to the customs of the various barbarian groups-the Goths, Visigoths, Gauls, Saxons, etc? No-they converted too late; Christianity was already the dominant religion of the mediterranean world by the time they were absorbed into it. So what does ‘pagan’ really mean? It means pretty much those catholic’/orthodox beliefs and practices that evangelicals do not believe in.When they dislike a Catholic belief or practice,they call it ‘pagan’.

Let’s just be grateful if they don’t call it “Babylonian” (Does that crop up in the book ?)​

If they were not Christians, they might be rather worried by the pagan bits of the gospels: seen from one POV, Jesus is just another dying & rising god.

As for St. Paul: Tarsus was a centre of Isis worship - which from one POV would account for the resemblance between Pauline Christianity & some of the Mysteries (a word he uses in his letters). The only reason he is not seen as pagan (along with Popes & whatnot) is that the NT is treated as a paganism-free zone. Looked at historically, without personal religious commitments to confuse things, he is no different in kind from the missionaries of any other cult in that world.

 

[MelanieAnne]

“Pagan” is sometimes what Catholics are called, and the term is used derisively, by some other Christian sects. I wouldn’t be surprised if it isn’t an extension of the “Catholics aren’t Christian” theory, but I don’t actually know. Is this book possibly along those lines?

Western Culture has many traditions that have their origin in ancient pagan practices. So what? These traditions have no bearing on our religion.

My guess ~ the authors are riding the wave of sensational anti-Christian books and laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Have you ever wondered why we Christians do what we do for church every Sunday morning? Why do we “dress up” for church? Why does the pastor preach a sermon each week? Why do we have pews, steeples, choirs, and seminaries? This volume reveals the startling truth: most of what Christians do in present-day churches is not rooted in the New Testament, but in pagan culture and rituals developed long after the death of the apostles. Coauthors Frank Viola and George Barna support their thesis with compelling historical evidence in the first-ever book to document the full story of modern Christian church practices.

paganchristianity.org/
barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Resource&ResourceID=309

From the reviews on Amazon, it seems the book is directed against US Protestantism. As for the question:​

• “Why does the pastor preach a sermon each week?”
  Because:
• Jesus preached
• as did the Apostles
• God is a God of order, not of confusion - 1 Cor.14
• & people are not telepathic
• the nasty horrid Romish Institution went & did it
• • which is why the almost equally evil Reformers did so
    The Reformers represented a lot of what the book appears to be rejecting: order, regularity, discipline. It was only a matter of time before a house church Christian got the idea that Protestantism is pagan.

The animosity to the “institutional Church” in some of the reviews is very depressing; the Churches (Catholic & Protestant: but almost entirely the latter), for all their faults, are the means by which those who judge them have gained a NT that enables them to do so.

amazon.com/Pagan-Christianity-Exploring-Church-Practices/dp/141431485X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204774730&sr=1-1

 

[Ismael]

Have you ever wondered why we Christians do what we do for church every Sunday morning? Why do we “dress up” for church? Why does the pastor preach a sermon each week? Why do we have pews, steeples, choirs, and seminaries? This volume reveals the startling truth: most of what Christians do in present-day churches is not rooted in the New Testament, but in pagan culture and rituals developed long after the death of the apostles. Coauthors Frank Viola and George Barna support their thesis with compelling historical evidence in the first-ever book to document the full story of modern Christian church practices.

paganchristianity.org/
barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Resource&ResourceID=309

A book that presents some facts (and some nonsense as well) and tries to push the conclusion that we should ‘worship diferently’. Sometimes I think Frank Viola thinks himself to be the second Martin Luther

Have you ever wondered why we Christians do what we do for church every Sunday morning?

Actually the earliest documents of Christianity write about ‘Christians meating together during the ‘Day of the Lord’’’.

So ‘going to church’ (and church comes from ekklesia - community) can be found in the bible (see 1 Corinthians, where Paul writes about taking the bread and the wine).

Why do we have pews, steeples, choirs, and seminaries?

The question is… what is the problem? Houses, schools and bridges were used in by pagans as well. Should we dwell in caves, swimm across rivers and remain ignorant, for that reason?

Also in Judaism, where Christianity finds his roots, you also had ‘choirs’ ( the Psalms are meant to be songs!!!) and places where rabbis and priests where educated ( “seminaries”).

Some things are just uniquitous in humanity, such as song, and places of learning and… places to sit when you listen (like pews)…

Why does the pastor preach a sermon each week?

Preaching is something found in every religion, almost. Jews were NOT pagan, yet they read the scriptures and explained them in synagogues.

JESUS did that as well!

---

So Frank Viola is full of… nonsense (I refrain to use a more appropriat yet more offensive word here).

Note: some stuff Viola tells is true, yet his conclusions are quite illogical and irrational.