Pagan influences on Catholicism

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I would like to get some (name removed by moderator)ut on this idea.

We have all heard the various accusations of this or that Catholic teaching being of “pagan” origin and we do our best to calm the fears of those influenced by such assertions.

Yet, I would like to suggest that there is a certain element of truth in some of them. In particular I am thinking of the issue of saintly intercession.
At the time the Church was becoming established, there was a pantheon of pagan gods. These gods were not necessarily viewed in the same “all powerful” way that we view God the eternal father. These gods were more task specific - the god of war, the god of harvest, the god of fertility, etc.
The Church of course rightly rejected the existence of such gods and yet within her body there were many great men and women who were paragons of virtue and often associated with a particular virtue or path or occupation. Since the Church has always held to the communion of saints and praying one for the other, the idea of “Patron saints” would seem a natural and comfortable concept for ex-pagans entering the Church.

There are other things that we could surely offer where there can be seen certain “pagan” influences (we seem to have such discussions every Christmas :rolleyes:), but the idea of the “patron saint” co-opting the pantheon of gods is intriguing to me…
So I thought I’d offer it here for comment, and if anyone finds it a worthy concept, they might find it useful in apologetic discussion…

Feel free to agree or disagree…bring up other “connections” heresies…whatever…I’ll probably listen more than participate so let the conversation be freewheeling but charitable.

Peace
James
 
It is an interesting thought, but I think it is slightly flawed. With the pantheons, they prayed to their gods based on what the priests told them the attributes of that particular god were; this could be likened to starting with an attribute and forming a god around it.

With saints, however, we begin with the saint, who we simply ask to intercede for us. When it appears that that Saint’s miracles are most often related to a specific field (medicine, finding lost tings, etc.) the Saint becomes associated with that field. It is the exact opposite, we have the saint, and determine their attributes after the fact.

It is true that most saint’s preferred area of intervention is in some way related to their life, but this is because theirs was a life dedicated to God, so any further action in their chosen field would be a continuous act of dedication.

As for the other “pagan influences,” I generally like to point out to people that correlation does not imply causation. They tend to ignore me (I have a friend who will stick to that saying 99% of the time, is basically dogma to him, but when it comes to this particular field, he conveniently forgets about it.) There is also the fact that we believe God’s plan was imprinted on the hearts of man from the time of our creation, so it’s only natural that aspects of it would present themselves throughout history.

Now, the pagan holiday’s thing, sure, I’ll give them that one; but what’s the big deal? Every religion usurped its predecessor’s celebrations; we took pagan holidays and Christianized them so that Christians wouldn’t feel drawn back towards to pagan aspect of the celebrations. I hate it when people say that this somehow invalidates the celebrations, and I don’t understand the twisted logic they use to arrive at that conclusion. (same friend, his wife is pagan and she thinks that way >_>)
 
I think you are quite right. I believe Fr. Barron actually spoke about this in his Catholicism series, too. He described the faith as something that started as a stream that continually grows stronger, wider and deeper as a river full of life. He went on to say that this river basically has swallowed up other traditions; formed around other traditions in order to assume them. I think this is what you are referring to.
 
JRKH said:
I would like to get some (name removed by moderator)ut on this idea.

We have all heard the various accusations of this or that Catholic teaching being of “pagan” origin and we do our best to calm the fears of those influenced by such assertions.

Yet, I would like to suggest that there is a certain element of truth in some of them. In particular I am thinking of the issue of saintly intercession.
At the time the Church was becoming established, there was a pantheon of pagan gods. These gods were not necessarily viewed in the same “all powerful” way that we view God the eternal father. These gods were more task specific - the god of war, the god of harvest, the god of fertility, etc.
The Church of course rightly rejected the existence of such gods and yet within her body there were many great men and women who were paragons of virtue and often associated with a particular virtue or path or occupation. Since the Church has always held to the communion of saints and praying one for the other, the idea of “Patron saints” would seem a natural and comfortable concept for ex-pagans entering the Church.

There are other things that we could surely offer where there can be seen certain “pagan” influences (we seem to have such discussions every Christmas :rolleyes:), but the idea of the “patron saint” co-opting the pantheon of gods is intriguing to me…
So I thought I’d offer it here for comment, and if anyone finds it a worthy concept, they might find it useful in apologetic discussion…

Feel free to agree or disagree…bring up other “connections” heresies…whatever…I’ll probably listen more than participate so let the conversation be freewheeling but charitable.

Peace
James
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The awareness of pagan customs and beliefs and allowing them to be superimposed over Catholic realities is not new. And, its not just for pagan converts.

Think of the Jews of the Old Testament who were led into bondage first by the Egyprians, the later the Assyrians and Babylonians. They were influenced by the Persians, Greeks and Romans. Is it not possible or even likely that even the most pious Jews were familiar with Pagan and other cultural tenets?

The creation story in Genesis is in fact, based on another ancient near eastern story of creation called Enuma Elish. Enuma Elish was written centuries before Genesis. These two stories are nearly identical except for certain theological realities that Genesis emphasizes. Biblical scholars suspect that the creation story in Genesis was in fact a re-origin of the Enuma myth. This style of litery teaching was effective in refuting previously held beliefs and explaining more clearly divinly inspired realities.

No one needs to apologize for Christmas or praying to saints as though these are unto themslves pagan. That is the farthest thing from the truth.

Besides, as Fr. Serpa said, “who cares what they think”!
 
ProdglArchitect said:
It is an interesting thought, but I think it is slightly flawed. With the pantheons, they prayed to their gods based on what the priests told them the attributes of that particular god were; this could be likened to starting with an attribute and forming a god around it.

With saints, however, we begin with the saint, who we simply ask to intercede for us. When it appears that that Saint’s miracles are most often related to a specific field (medicine, finding lost tings, etc.) the Saint becomes associated with that field. It is the exact opposite, we have the saint, and determine their attributes after the fact.

It is true that most saint’s preferred area of intervention is in some way related to their life, but this is because theirs was a life dedicated to God, so any further action in their chosen field would be a continuous act of dedication.

As for the other “pagan influences,” I generally like to point out to people that correlation does not imply causation. They tend to ignore me (I have a friend who will stick to that saying 99% of the time, is basically dogma to him, but when it comes to this particular field, he conveniently forgets about it.) There is also the fact that we believe God’s plan was imprinted on the hearts of man from the time of our creation, so it’s only natural that aspects of it would present themselves throughout history.

Now, the pagan holiday’s thing, sure, I’ll give them that one; but what’s the big deal? Every religion usurped its predecessor’s celebrations; we took pagan holidays and Christianized them so that Christians wouldn’t feel drawn back towards to pagan aspect of the celebrations. I hate it when people say that this somehow invalidates the celebrations, and I don’t understand the twisted logic they use to arrive at that conclusion. (same friend, his wife is pagan and she thinks that way >_>)
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PA,
Yes - I think what you describe is sort of the “flip side of the coin” so to speak. What the Church would do is to clarify what was correct and proper and what was not. Individuals could then use that in a way that felt comfortable to them.
In the case of praying to saints, as you say the Church would teach correctly how that would work and the individual (possibly even subconsciously) would pray to a saint for intercession because praying to a specific “person” for a specific “need” was what they were comfortable with.

Peace
James
 
Ophelia23 said:
I think you are quite right. I believe Fr. Barron actually spoke about this in his Catholicism series, too. He described the faith as something that started as a stream that continually grows stronger, wider and deeper as a river full of life. He went on to say that this river basically has swallowed up other traditions; formed around other traditions in order to assume them. I think this is what you are referring to.
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Guess I’ll have to go back and watch the series again…😃

I know this idea isn’t new…I have been observing and participating in a discussion on another site where one person is bringing these things up in relation to the title “Mother of God”.
So it brought the thought forward in my mind and I decided to see what others might have to say.

Peace
James
 
St. Augustine’s City of God obliterates paganism so thoroughly, and leaves such a stark juxtaposition of Catholicism vs. paganism, that it’s hard to see much influence, IMO.

As for praying to the saints–I have a hard time seeing that as a nexus–rather, much more of a significant point of difference. First, we don’t pray to the saints for favors, but for intersession. Secondly, pagans didn’t pray to the dead at all–they figured them for…well…dead–and therefore powerless. Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations subtly betrays a paganistic view of death along these lines.

Another book comes to mind–Cardinal Christoph Schonborn’s Chance or Purpose, in which he writes about how pagans divinized everything, while Christianity essentially ‘disenchanted’ everything, by explaning all of nature as a creation.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
Goya said:
St. Augustine’s City of God obliterates paganism so thoroughly, and leaves such a stark juxtaposition of Catholicism vs. paganism, that it’s hard to see much influence, IMO.

As for praying to the saints–I have a hard time seeing that as a nexus–rather, much more of a significant point of difference. First, we don’t pray to the saints for favors, but for intersession. Secondly, pagans didn’t pray to the dead at all–they figured them for…well…dead–and therefore powerless. Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations subtly betrays a paganistic view of death along these lines.

Another book comes to mind–Cardinal Christoph Schonborn’s Chance or Purpose, in which he writes about how pagans divinized everything, while Christianity essentially ‘disenchanted’ everything, by explaning all of nature as a creation.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
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RE praying to saints…I don’t want to try to draw too close of a parallel. You mention some interesting differences. 👍

As to not praying to saints for favors…I don’t think this is precisely true in all cases.
There is an old “prayer” to Saint Anthony that goes:
“Tony Tony come around,
Something’s lost that can’t be found”
It’s asking for Saint Anthony to help you find something - a favor - not an intercession.
 
I think this is a very important issue. When looking at the material that is presented for atheism, this is one of the major issues they bring up. See, the stories of your God are just reused stories of other gods. As Dawkins wrote, “All Christians say that every other god is false but theirs; as an atheist, I just go the next step and say that all of the gods are false.”

Was there pagan influence? Certainly. Who can really deny this? Gregory the Great is reported to have told St. Bonifice that if he came to a people who worshiped a tree that he shouldn’t cut it down, but rather teach them to worship Christ who died on the tree. In essence, what is wrong with this? Nothing. We are human beings. We can only understand God in a human mode of knowing.

What does the Church say regarding other religions? Vatican II:
Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)
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vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
 
+JMJ+

I have said it before, and I will say it again: Christians who accuse the Catholic Church to be swayed by pagan influences are hypocritical to have a pagan torturing device as their symbol.

Christ’s Blood cleaned the worst the pagans have, so that their best can be used for the glory of God.
 
Look, God made us human. And that means that everything that has influenced our cultures just cannot be wipped away.

So when Christianity was being developed in different areas of the world( and you can still this today) people would have brought their understandings with them and use that to understand this new idea about Jesus. It is a human thing.

Does it mean that the catholic faith is pagan just because some of the roman pagan ways merged into what is now called the Roman Catholic Church? NO! a very big NO!

The pagan ways have ceased to be pagan. Statues of the little gods became statues of the saints. They aren’t little gods anymore. The very word pontiff is not originally christian.

Heck, the breaking of bread, the predictions of a "savior’ male child, the flood, sacrifices, even a "queen of heaven’, the mother/child, temple virgins(nuns), all pre-date christianity.

It is entirely possible that God planted all of this into the world far in advance so that he could use it for His church.
 
Doxiemom said:
Look, God made us human. And that means that everything that has influenced our cultures just cannot be wipped away.

So when Christianity was being developed in different areas of the world( and you can still this today) people would have brought their understandings with them and use that to understand this new idea about Jesus. It is a human thing.

Does it mean that the catholic faith is pagan just because some of the roman pagan ways merged into what is now called the Roman Catholic Church? NO! a very big NO!

The pagan ways have ceased to be pagan. Statues of the little gods became statues of the saints. They aren’t little gods anymore. The very word pontiff is not originally christian.

Heck, the breaking of bread, the predictions of a "savior’ male child, the flood, sacrifices, even a "queen of heaven’, the mother/child, temple virgins(nuns), all pre-date christianity.

It is entirely possible that God planted all of this into the world far in advance so that he could use it for His church.
Click to expand...
👍

I like how you use the term “pagan ways”…because this can easily be seen as differing from “pagan beliefs”.

The example of statues is a good one for while the “way” is similar, the “belief” is not.

Peace
James
 
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