Pagan Symbols

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tenderfoot said:
A tribute to martyrs makes sense.

I could not figure out how a Church that has stood firm in morality in this modern secular-pagan world could worship with pagan symbols.
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If you listened to my last posts, we might as well say of the Israelites: “I could not figure out how a nation chosen by God could conduct its worship with elements which have a parallel in those pagan cultures in an edifice which was partly constructed with the help of said pagans, with materials that came from pagan lands.” Or for the later Jews, “in an edifice that was clearly planned and constructed by an Idumean, a non-Jew who also built pagan temples.” (well yeah, John Hyrcanus did force the Idumeans to convert to Judaism when he conquered their land, but the Herods were living a decadent lifestyle. Also, the guy I’m referring built PAGAN TEMPLES and promoted PAGAN culture) 🤷
 
tenderfoot said:
Why in St. Peter’s square, the symbol of Baal is within the symbol of Ishtar, and at the center is an Egyptian obelisk, all representing pagan sun worship? Why would they move two Egyptian obelisks to St. Peter Basilica and St. John Lateran?
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Cause obelisks are feats of human engineering?
 
tenderfoot said:
A tribute to martyrs makes sense.

I could not figure out how a Church that has stood firm in morality in this modern secular-pagan world could worship with pagan symbols.
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The Popes plan originally was to use obilisks as landmarks. If a pilgrim stood beside the obilisk outside St. Peters he could see far down some street another obilisk marking another pilgrim site of interest and from its obilisk the pilgrim could see another obilisk and so on and so on.
It is difficult to stand on the street and find a building at the far end as all buildings on the street look alike. Obilisks are extreemly distinctive and jump out from a streetscape. They are the perfect ultimate landmark. Considering that Rome was traditionally the second most popular pilgrim city in the world there were always millions of pilgrims visiting Rome every year, most of whom probably had never been to Rome before nor could they speak Italian for directions and possibly maps of the city were scarce or just non-existant. Obilisk landmarks were a great idea especially in the original plan where each obilisk could be seen from another obilisk. Much better than having millions of pilgrims lost in a foreign city every year.
 
tenderfoot said:
Why in St. Peter’s square, the symbol of Baal is within the symbol of Ishtar, and at the center is an Egyptian obelisk, all representing pagan sun worship? Why would they move two Egyptian obelisks to St. Peter Basilica and St. John Lateran?
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I bet some of your ancestors were pagans. What does that make you? The wheel was invented by a pagan so I’m going to take them off my car. The alphabet was invented by pagans so I’m going to stop using it. Arabic numerals were intented by pagans so I’m going to stop using numbers. Money was invented by pagans so I’m going to tear up my paychecks. Pagans first realized the earth was round so I’m going to join the Flat Earth Society. Pagans first built houses so I’m going to start living outdoors.

This whole pagan thing is just nuts.
 
tenderfoot said:
Why in St. Peter’s square, the symbol of Baal is within the symbol of Ishtar, and at the center is an Egyptian obelisk, all representing pagan sun worship? Why would they move two Egyptian obelisks to St. Peter Basilica and St. John Lateran?
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Because Catholics really worship Ishtar, Dagon, and Baal, and the Tammuz, and Isis and Horus and Seth and are part of the Babylon Mystery Religion.

Just look at the popes pointy hat, and the round pieces of bread.

I have a ton of little comic booklets that will explain everything if you like.
 
Gumbercules said:
Because Catholics really worship Ishtar, Dagon, and Baal, and the Tammuz, and Isis and Horus and Seth and are part of the Babylon Mystery Religion.

Just look at the popes pointy hat, and the round pieces of bread.

I have a ton of little comic booklets that will explain everything if you like.
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I suppose Jack Chick is your Pope.
 
Gumbercules said:
Because Catholics really worship Ishtar, Dagon, and Baal, and the Tammuz, and Isis and Horus and Seth and are part of the Babylon Mystery Religion.

Just look at the popes pointy hat, and the round pieces of bread.

I have a ton of little comic booklets that will explain everything if you like.
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:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
This raises a very interesting point as on some sites I have seen complete replicas of pagan clothing, structures, symbols even chalices made for the modern Catholic Churches. Even Papal vestments are copied right down to the last detail. One wonders why this is so? What is the connection? A thinking person should check out these things and there is a lot of this stuff shown on the webb . The Church should not in any way imitate or use images etc that smack of pagan Baal worship even if a picture of Christ or a Cross of Christ is at the top because it adds to all the so-called anti-catholic stuff out there and sure confuses a lot of thinking Catholics. Or is there a connection here that the very sincere and devout catholics do not know about and should know about?
 
to_seek said:
This raises a very interesting point as on some sites I have seen complete replicas of pagan clothing, structures, symbols even chalices made for the modern Catholic Churches. Even Papal vestments are copied right down to the last detail. One wonders why this is so? What is the connection? A thinking person should check out these things and there is a lot of this stuff shown on the webb . The Church should not in any way imitate or use images etc that smack of pagan Baal worship even if a picture of Christ or a Cross of Christ is at the top because it adds to all the so-called anti-catholic stuff out there and sure confuses a lot of thinking Catholics. Or is there a connection here that the very sincere and devout catholics do not know about and should know about?
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You’re suggesting Catholics be more…Protestant?
 
to_seek said:
This raises a very interesting point as on some sites I have seen complete replicas of pagan clothing, structures, symbols even chalices made for the modern Catholic Churches. Even Papal vestments are copied right down to the last detail. One wonders why this is so? What is the connection? A thinking person should check out these things and there is a lot of this stuff shown on the webb . The Church should not in any way imitate or use images etc that smack of pagan Baal worship even if a picture of Christ or a Cross of Christ is at the top because it adds to all the so-called anti-catholic stuff out there and sure confuses a lot of thinking Catholics. Or is there a connection here that the very sincere and devout catholics do not know about and should know about?
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I would very sincerely ask you to provide proof, not just general accusations but exact examples.

It is clear that contrary to the picture some on the web wanted to paint of the obelisk of being pagan, so Catholics must be pagan, that it was a silent witness to the death of many Christians. Christians who chose death over giving up their faith. It is a symbol of Christian victory over pagans!

So, please, instead of these general accusations, get specific.
 
to_seek said:
This raises a very interesting point as on some sites I have seen complete replicas of pagan clothing, structures, symbols even chalices made for the modern Catholic Churches. Even Papal vestments are copied right down to the last detail. One wonders why this is so? What is the connection? A thinking person should check out these things and there is a lot of this stuff shown on the webb . The Church should not in any way imitate or use images etc that smack of pagan Baal worship even if a picture of Christ or a Cross of Christ is at the top because it adds to all the so-called anti-catholic stuff out there and sure confuses a lot of thinking Catholics. Or is there a connection here that the very sincere and devout catholics do not know about and should know about?
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Are you kidding me? Have you ever read Exodus where instructions are given as to the ornate and symbolic robes for the priests to wear? Perhaps you don’t believe in the Old Testament, but Catholics do. Instead of accepting ridiculous conspiracy theories, a thinking person should crack open a Bible and take a look at the instructions for priestly robes. This is what Catholic vestments were based on.

The truth is that God Himself commanded graven images to be made— yet, graven images were a pagan practice. God actually commanded a very ornate Temple, rich in symbolism. Hmmm… what is a thinking person to make of that? Probably, that God doesn’t care about pagan arts and decorum. He cares about worship.
 
The reason we keep seeing these parallels is not fanciful thinking or conspiracy theory…they are evident because there is NOTHING in the Christian mythology or salvation story that is not derivative of earlier religions. The birth of a savior figure, foretold by others and heralded by a star, a baptist figure/preparer of the way who is then killed. Virgin birth on Winter Solstice, worked miracles, raised the dead, 12 disciples, died on a tree for the redemption of mankind, rose again. Every last bit of it has all been done before. The key days in the liturgical calendar are obvious overlays of pagan seasonal and solar festivals. Now, that doesn’t mean that Christianity doesn’t assign radically different meanings to these events or that Catholicism is just Paganism 2.0. We pagans couldn’t live with that any more than Catholics could.

It does mean that certain divine truths are best conveyed through myth, and the best myths stand the test of time. It also means that the first Christians, like us, did not materialize out of thin air as a blank slate. Everything they adopted as the new truth had to be integrated into an established frame of reference. The installed new software into timeless hardware, so to speak. Missionaries also were not stupid people. You don’t convert whole nations in a generation or two by telling them to forget everything they know of culture and ritual trappings. You re-write the new message in a way they can access and then nail up a little sign on the temple that says “under new management”…
 
I have an admission to make. I have been in a state of confusion for some time.I have got very mixed up in what I read genuinely seeking truth. I have decided to return to the Catholic faith and continue my journey where I began. There is so much more help available even on the net and on such forums as these which I will continue to use. I went on the net and looked up the catichism and started to read. Those pagan symbols did worry me and I spoke out of that worry, largely engineered by other sites Ive visited over time. Remeber also Ive just come out from my protestant journey and came out it very hurt. I believe The Lord let me go on this journey of the last 10 years or so, and He is bringing me home. I apologize for sounding off. It came out of a anger that Im sure will go quickly when I start my second and final journey as the catholic I was meant to be. Regards to seek:o
 
The New Testament is really an account of the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. In its most basic form, the Old Testament is a prophetic book. Its prophecy is about the coming of the Messiah. The New Testament was the fulfillment of every single one of those prophecies in the person of Jesus Christ.
 
to_seek said:
I have an admission to make. I have been in a state of confusion for some time.I have got very mixed up in what I read genuinely seeking truth. I have decided to return to the Catholic faith and continue my journey where I began. There is so much more help available even on the net and on such forums as these which I will continue to use. I went on the net and looked up the catichism and started to read. Those pagan symbols did worry me and I spoke out of that worry, largely engineered by other sites Ive visited over time. Remeber also Ive just come out from my protestant journey and came out it very hurt. I believe The Lord let me go on this journey of the last 10 years or so, and He is bringing me home. I apologize for sounding off. It came out of a anger that Im sure will go quickly when I start my second and final journey as the catholic I was meant to be. Regards to seek:o
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Fair enough. Questions are good, they help us to grow in our faith. You are probably familiar with Fulton Sheen’s remark “There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church.” Many of the sites you will visit are filled with blatant lies about what the Church teaches. Others are well-meaning but ignorant. Still, they are useful because they (should) cause you to do your homework. These forums have been enormously helpful to me for that purpose.

I’m sorry you were hurt in your journey. God uses our trials as spiritual discipline to help us grow in faith. Often, it is a painful process, but enormously beneficial in the end. Please keep seeking and we will try to help you as best we can-- though remember that we are all just lay Catholics and we make mistakes too. The Catechism and other authoritative documents are always going to be your best source for info.

PS. Welcome home! :hug1:
 
to_seek said:
I have an admission to make. I have been in a state of confusion for some time.I have got very mixed up in what I read genuinely seeking truth. I have decided to return to the Catholic faith and continue my journey where I began. There is so much more help available even on the net and on such forums as these which I will continue to use. I went on the net and looked up the catichism and started to read. Those pagan symbols did worry me and I spoke out of that worry, largely engineered by other sites Ive visited over time. Remeber also Ive just come out from my protestant journey and came out it very hurt. I believe The Lord let me go on this journey of the last 10 years or so, and He is bringing me home. I apologize for sounding off. It came out of a anger that Im sure will go quickly when I start my second and final journey as the catholic I was meant to be. Regards to seek:o
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That is good.

You will be amazed by how scriptural the teachings of the Catholic Church are. Make sure to look up the footnotes and read the scripture when reading the Catechism:)

May the Holy Spirit lead and guide you to all truth!
 
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