Paganism and Catholic Ritual/Traditons.....Similar?

[Steel_Arrow]

Psalm 150
Praise the LORD.
Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens. Praise him for his acts of power; praise him for his surpassing greatness. Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute, praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD.

Why would Jesus use a parable involving music and dancing if He was opposed to them? Luke 15:25

Why would the 24 elders and others be allowed harps to be used in worship in heaven, but Christians not be allowed any musical instruments in their churches? See Rev. 5:8; 14:2; 15:2

Paul didn’t seem to have a problem with musical instruments. Why do you? He talks about a gong and a cymbal in 1 Cor. 13:1 and the harp, flute and trumpet in 1 Cor. 14:7-8

Again, while Jesus preached during His ministry, He was under the Old Testament laws. Musical instruments were allowed by the Father in this Covenant. But specifically, beginning with the Book of Acts, I cannot find any authorization for use of musical instruments in the worship service. t has been mentioned that the early Christians went underground to participate in the Mass. If true, then instrumental music could not have been used, as it would have been too much of a dead give-away to the Roman soldiers who were hunting them. Why else would they have gone underground except to escape persecution. makes sense, doesn’t it?

With the exception of Luther (Satan) and his choice to rebel against God, God gave mankind the right of free agency or free choice, to choose right from wrong. The angels (created a little higher than man) didn’t have this option. What the father does in Heaven is totally different from how his earthly people worship him. We are not under the Old Law where blood sacrifices as burnt offerings was required by God. We are commanded by God to come together, give glory and honor to His Holy Name, and to grow spiritually from the lessons contained in His Holy Word…the Bible.

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. It helps me to grow spiritually in my relationship with God. :tiphat:

 

[Subrosa]

Hey Steel Arrow - care to comment on my posts 42 & 52? eh?

Sub

 

[Subrosa]

Again, while Jesus preached during His ministry, He was under the Old Testament laws. Musical instruments were allowed by the Father in this Covenant. But specifically, beginning with the Book of Acts, I cannot find any authorization for use of musical instruments in the worship service. t has been mentioned that the early Christians went underground to participate in the Mass. If true, then instrumental music could not have been used, as it would have been too much of a dead give-away to the Roman soldiers who were hunting them. Why else would they have gone underground except to escape persecution. makes sense, doesn’t it?

With the exception of Luther (Satan) and his choice to rebel against God, God gave mankind the right of free agency or free choice, to choose right from wrong. The angels (created a little higher than man) didn’t have this option. What the father does in Heaven is totally different from how his earthly people worship him. We are not under the Old Law where blood sacrifices as burnt offerings was required by God. We are commanded by God to come together, give glory and honor to His Holy Name, and to grow spiritually from the lessons contained in His Holy Word…the Bible.

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. It helps me to grow spiritually in my relationship with God. :tiphat:

Hi SA -

Does the New Testament forbid the use of musical instruments during worship?

Sub

 

[KarenNC]

** t has been mentioned that the early Christians went underground to participate in the Mass. If true, then instrumental music could not have been used, as it would have been too much of a dead give-away to the Roman soldiers who were hunting them. Why else would they have gone underground except to escape persecution. makes sense, doesn’t it?**

If I follow your line of reasoning (early Christians didn’t use music because it would be dangerous, so modern Christians should not use it), then it would seem that all Christian sanctuaries should be built underground. There is a difference between what a religion considers allowable during normal circumstances and what a group might be forced to do under duress.

With the exception of Luther (Satan) and his choice to rebel against God, God gave mankind the right of free agency or free choice, to choose right from wrong.

Does this mean that you believe Luther did not have free will? Leads to some interesting lines of thought, if so.

 

[Sanctus_Vir]

Guys, I keep trying to point out that this thread has nothing to do with modern Neopagan religions. I will be glad to talk with you about those until the cows come home (as I have proved many times over ) but you need to start another thread for that one.

Sanctus Vir, given the number of misconceptions about Neopaganism that you have managed to cram into one paragraph, that might not be a bad idea. For now, you might want to consider the possibility that at age 14 you may not have had the widest experience of spiritually mature Neopagans who are practicing an actual religion rather than posing to try to shock others, look cool or who are basing their actions on reading a single book by Silver Ravenwolf.

Someone I knew and used to love talking to tried converting me to be Pagan and Wiccan, don’t tell me I know nothing about it. I did know a REAL person and I didn’t draw conclusions from nowhere. Maybe YOU should learn more about what I’ve done and seen just like I’m not going to tell you you’re wrong if I don’t even know you. Isn’t the Wigi board used for calling demons or spirits? Isn’t their art of doing spells on full moons on the belief that they get powers from it the same as Satanists? Do they not wrongly worship non-existent Gods/the false God (Lucifer)? They are just like devil worshipers. They call evil entities just like Satanists, too. So, therefor I know a little of what I’m talking about. YOU are judging me; which God (real) says is only for him to do. While those other Gods/Godesses (fake) have no proof of ever existing!

 

[quantumDeus]

A long thread to wade through.

First, the OP is valid, and in the subsequent posts, do not find fault for legitimate discourse and discussion. As written language tends to sound harsher than in-person conversation, I try to take that into account when answering.

So, some comments and thoughts on what I’ve read here.

It is common for other religions to point to “paganistic” adoption by the Church. In practice, this was somewhat intentional. One post alluded to this: it is better to point to a similarity in the pagan religion in order to help them conceptualize aspects of Christianity. From informal adoption of some customs into local communities of Catholics, we can infer the Vatican’s true overarching vision: if it doesn’t detract from Christ’s salvetic message and maintaining our state of grace with God, it is (relatively) harmless.

Second: only by the largest stretch of the imagination can one draw parallels between paganism/Wicca and the Catholic Church. Somewhat analogous to saying that apes and humans are the same because both are mammals.

Again, the OP’s faith in God (or anyone else’s, for that matter) should never be questioned. What is in the human heart insofar as faith in and love for God is there for God alone to read. That being said, we (as Catholics) can discuss the errancy of implementation of our wayward brothers and sisters in Christ (and even more distantly, followers of Islam and Judaism).

Here is a point all non-Catholic Christians need to consider: division never comes from God. It comes from human arrogance, pride and – the case can be made – is a subtle motivation of Satan. The division of Catholicism – whether it was the political, cultural and semantic schism of Orthodoxy, or the blatantly man-caused schism of Luther or Calvin, of Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russell, are devisive as well as divisive.

To our Judaic cousins, we differ not in the Law or (most of) the Prophets, or even in substantial aspects of what constitutes the Writings that we call the OT. You choose not to see the prophesies fulfilled, we choose to see them fulfilled; we also choose to see God’s favor of Israel widened to all humanity.

To the Muslims, we can appreciate their devoutness of devotion to God (as aforementioned), while finding great fault in Mohammed and the Qur’an and ahadith.

 

[KarenNC]

Someone I knew and used to love talking to tried converting me to be Pagan and Wiccan, don’t tell me I know nothing about it. I did know a REAL person and I didn’t draw conclusions from nowhere. Maybe YOU should learn more about what I’ve done and seen just like I’m not going to tell you you’re wrong if I don’t even know you. Isn’t the Wigi board used for calling demons or spirits? Isn’t their art of doing spells on full moons on the belief that they get powers from it the same as Satanists? Do they not wrongly worship non-existent Gods/the false God (Lucifer)? They are just like devil worshipers. They call evil entities just like Satanists, too. So, therefor I know a little of what I’m talking about. YOU are judging me; which God (real) says is only for him to do. While those other Gods/Godesses (fake) have no proof of ever existing!

I did not say you knew nothing about it, simply that you seem to have a great many misconceptions about the way in which the vast majority of the Neopagan community functions based on your statements.

I will fully agree that you “know a little” but as Alexander Pope said, “A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again.”

If someone were to post that Catholics worship statues or that Christians practice cannibalistic rituals (someone who also knows “a little” but definitely not enough to have a basic understanding of what is actually going on within the mainstream of the religion), it would not be “judging” them to say they are incorrect. I am not judging you as anything other than likely rather badly misinformed, either through lack of experience or having received that information from a poor informant. Real people can be poor informants as well. I am neither expecting nor asking you to wholeheartedly endorse Neopagan religions as true, but I do hope that you will be willing to admit (as at least some posters on this forum are willing to do) that there may be something out there that you do not know about them.

For the moment, suffice it to say that your posts show a fundamental lack of understanding of Neopagan religions, including Wicca (which is only one religion that falls under that umbrella term). As I said, I will be glad to discuss this further and in detail with you, but it is the subject of a new thread. If you wish to pursue the topic, please start that new thread.

You may want to visit the following for a bit more information

religioustolerance.org/wic_faq.htm
religioustolerance.org/neo_paga.htm
religioustolerance.org/satanism.htm
religioustolerance.org/wic_sata.htm

 

[Contarini]

Someone I knew and used to love talking to tried converting me to be Pagan and Wiccan, don’t tell me I know nothing about it. I did know a REAL person and I didn’t draw conclusions from nowhere. Maybe YOU should learn more about what I’ve done and seen just like I’m not going to tell you you’re wrong if I don’t even know you. Isn’t the Wigi board used for calling demons or spirits? Isn’t their art of doing spells on full moons on the belief that they get powers from it the same as Satanists? Do they not wrongly worship non-existent Gods/the false God (Lucifer)? They are just like devil worshipers. They call evil entities just like Satanists, too.

You are failing to make a crucial distinction. People who use a Ouija board, for instance, are not generally intending to call on evil entities. They are either foolishly playing with things they don’t believe in, or they are calling on what they believe to be good or at least morally neutral beings. It may well be that the beings they contact are in fact evil, but they don’t know that. So while they are not free from blame for playing with fire, they are not deliberately invoking the powers of evil. Satanists, on the other hand, either do deliberately invoke the powers of evil, or use the traditional language and imagery of those powers as a symbol for a fundamentally immoral or even amoral approacht o live. That is very different. The same is true for other practices (such as magical rituals performed at the full moon) which may or may not bring people in contact with evil powers but are certainly not intended to do so.

I get the impression that you do indeed know very little about neopaganism (perhaps even less than I do). However, I’m more concerned about your ignorance of basic Christian ethics. By failing to take intention into account, you have violated basic principles of both justice and charity.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Steel_Arrow]

I think a case could be made on the grounds of culture. Rome during Augustus (Emperor during Jesus birth) saw a great increase in construction and arts, statues primary among the arts. Yes, the statues were pagan, but many were figures of leaders including Augustus and different senators.

http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/109images/Roman/augustus/augustus_primam.jpg

Augustus Caesar

It was a natural transition for christianity to adopt the culture around them, that which they grew up with, to thier own belief system.

Eventually the statues became more chistian in character - such as this depiction of Jesus, with Peter and Paul on either side, stepping on the head of Uranus.

http://www.ou.edu/class/ahi4263/byzslides/027-2.jpg

Detail of the Sarcophagus of Junius Bassus 359ad (Ps. 110 & Luke 20:42-43 - “The Lord said to My Lord, sit at My right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.”)
Believe it or not, the pagans copied the use of incense from the Jews who had been commanded to use it by God. (Exodus 30) The early christian practice of using incense stems from the Levitical practice and simply has never stopped. (i.e. NOT PAGAN!) thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/2006/12/on-history-and-use-of-incense.html

Subrosa

When I look at a statue of a past president, I usually have admiration for his accomplishments. When I look upon a monument like Iwo Jima, I feel an awe of respect come over me. But, I do not kneel before or bow to these images. I do not look upon them in reverential prayer or contemplation, pleading for some type of spiritual intervention on my behalf. I believe in prayer to God the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ.

You say it was a natural transition for early christians to adopt the culture around them. Then it is true then, that the RCC, in order to appease and bring the pagans into the church, officially adopted some of their holidays, i.e. Christmas, Halloween and Easter. I don’t believe that Christianity was meant to be a mismash of faiths. If traditions were the driving force behind the formation of Christianity, male children would still have been circumsized on the 8th day of their birth.

Your O.T. reference on incense I accept. But, under the New Covenant (N.T.) I don’t see mention of its use in Christian worship in the Bible. You made some good points. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. :tiphat:

 

[Steel_Arrow]

We understand the statues to be depictions of the person they represent. We do not pray to the statues themselves, but to the person they represent. The statue is kind of a “stand in.” It is a common way that we humans remember the people who came before us. You know. There are statues and pictues of presidents and guys like Martin Luther King all over the place. Also we have feast days for veterans, presidents and others, just like saints. (Hebrews13:7)

Think of it this way - if you were to pick up a picture of a relative that you miss and kiss the picture, would you actually be expressing a memory toward that person or kissing the picture for the pictures sake?

If you answer that you’re expressing a memory toward the person, you’re behaving as a Catholic. If you answer that you like kissing pictures, you’re kinda weird.

In my own experience, I know that when I kiss the crucifix on my rosary, I am expressing my love for Jesus. The crucifix itself is just a piece of metal which means nothing, in and of itself.

God commanded that we do not commit idolatry. We do not worship statues. That is just plain stupid.

We also understand that God at times makes use of His creation in order to accomplish things. For instance, when Moses used his staff to open the waters of the Red Sea, do you honestly believe that it was the stick that did the miracle? NO! It was God using the staff! The Catholic Church has never stopped believing that God works in this way. (Luke 9:43-46, Acts 5:15, 19:11-12)

As far as paying for candles, it is a form of sacrifice. You know, “Pick up your cross and follow me.” Not to mention that IT PAYS FOR THE CANDLE TO BE REPLACED!!!

The lighting of the candle itself is a form of remebrance. The Lord said “I am the light of the world.” and lighting the candle depicts this phrase visually. During pre-electricity days it also provided light.

Hey, Steel Arrow - I see you were once a Catholic. Are you really so in the dark about Catholic practices? All I can say is that you couldn’t have payed attention in CCD. I’ll have to get the Mother Superior over here to have a word with you!

Sub

No need to get Mother Superior. I was whacked enough with the ruler in grade school!

I’ve got nothing against candles. I just question its use for spiritual guidance. I know Jesus is the light of the world, as well as a candle provides light for one to see. I see that as the practical use of the candle. For 39 years I was a catholic. I began to go beyond the teachings of the RCC and like Saul who was blinded, his sight returned like “scales falling from his eyes”. It is difficult to explain. I too was indoctrinated thorougly in the Teachings of the Church. Things changed for me.

 

[jmcrae]

The discussion of denominations came up only because I thougth it would be good to know the background of the person I was talking to. His response was that he did not belong to a denomiation but to the church of christ. Sounds like a denomination to me.

They are also known as the Campbellite Restorationists. They first came into being during the late 1700s and early 1800s. There were actually several different denominations that followed the Restorationist ideology - the Federal Census Bureau identified three of them in 1927 - but the Campbellites have had the longest staying power, and are currently the only ones left in existence.

 

[jmcrae]

No need to get Mother Superior. I was whacked enough with the ruler in grade school!

I’ve got nothing against candles. I just question its use for spiritual guidance.

Catholics don’t use candles for spiritual guidance. When we light a candle, it represents our prayers, and provides a signal and a reminder for others to pray for us, as well. The imagery of the smoke going up into the air also reminds us of our prayers ascending into Heaven.

Nobody thinks they will get spiritual guidance from a candle, though.

 

[BelFarfalla]

…

You say it was a natural transition for early christians to adopt the culture around them. Then it is true then, that the RCC, in order to appease and bring the pagans into the church, officially adopted some of their holidays, i.e. Christmas, Halloween and Easter. I don’t believe that Christianity was meant to be a mismash of faiths. If traditions were the driving force behind the formation of Christianity, male children would still have been circumsized on the 8th day of their birth.

Your O.T. reference on incense I accept. But, under the New Covenant (N.T.) I don’t see mention of its use in Christian worship in the Bible. You made some good points. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
The poster you are responding to here showed architectural type statues… these are used to adorn buildings, not for worship. Of course Catholics and other Christians used the what was common in their civilization to build buildings and adorn them. They used statues like this to pay homage to God, Jesus, the saints etc. These are not for use in worship.

You were asking about statues used for worship or spiritual purposes. Catholics create them and used them according the instructions from God in the Bible. It has NOTHING to do with paganism.

Who cares if Jesus did not say to use incense? Jesus used incense when he worshipped. We know that he did because it he was a Jewish Rabbi.

I provided you information that Halloween is not a Catholic holiday. All Saints Day and Eve are celebrations that started in Antioch in the 300’s. Antioch, the last time I checked had nothing to do with the Celtics. Only those people associated with the Celtics use what we consider the trappings of Halloween are those who have been influenced by the Irish… mostly here in the USA. Every Catholic church I’ve ever belonged to makes a very distinct separation between the popular Celtic-like holiday Halloween and All Saints Eve/Day.

All of the other holidays you listed have similar stories, they are not pagan… but people who used to be pagan brought their old customs into the holiday AT THE LOCAL LEVEL. For example Africans do not use Yule logs and Christmas trees. At least they did not when I lived there. Modern commercialism might be changing that now… but that has nothing to do with Christianity.

I find it odd that of all the info you have been given, you are choosing on that which fits your original misinformation. I thought you were here to learn and get answers.

 

[KarenNC]

**You say it was a natural transition for early christians to adopt the culture around them. Then it is true then, that the RCC, in order to appease and bring the pagans into the church, officially adopted some of their holidays, i.e. Christmas, Halloween and Easter. **

Early Christians did not “adopt the culture around them.” They were the culture around them. It is not a case of a group of foreigners moving into an area to take over from the local inhabitants (as in the Hebrews coming into Canaan). It was a case of conversion of those already living there.

Also, since the dating of Easter is based on the date of the Jewish Passover (and hence in accordance to the dating given in the Gospels for the Crucifixion), are the Jews now also to be considered pagans?

newadvent.org/cathen/05228a.htm

 

[holy_wood]

Again, while Jesus preached during His ministry, He was under the Old Testament laws. Musical instruments were allowed by the Father in this Covenant. But specifically, beginning with the Book of Acts, I cannot find any authorization for use of musical instruments in the worship service. t has been mentioned that the early Christians went underground to participate in the Mass. If true, then instrumental music could not have been used, as it would have been too much of a dead give-away to the Roman soldiers who were hunting them. Why else would they have gone underground except to escape persecution. makes sense, doesn’t it?

With the exception of Luther (Satan) and his choice to rebel against God, God gave mankind the right of free agency or free choice, to choose right from wrong. The angels (created a little higher than man) didn’t have this option. What the father does in Heaven is totally different from how his earthly people worship him. We are not under the Old Law where blood sacrifices as burnt offerings was required by God. We are commanded by God to come together, give glory and honor to His Holy Name, and to grow spiritually from the lessons contained in His Holy Word…the Bible.

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. It helps me to grow spiritually in my relationship with God. :tiphat:

 

[holy_wood]

The Book of Revelation shows us glimpses of the heavenly liturgy – Jesus Christ’s once and for all sacrifice eternally present in heaven. This is why the Church has always incorporated the elements that John saw in the heavenly liturgy into her earthly liturgy, for they are one and the same liturgical action of Jesus Christ our High Priest.

Rev. 1:6, 20:6 - heaven’s identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church’s identification on earth.
Rev. 1:10 - John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.
Rev. 1:13 - Jesus is clothed as High Priest. Our priests also clothe themselves as “alter Christuses” (other Christs) in offering His sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:5,16,21; 3:3; 16:11 - there is a penitential rite in heaven which is also part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:17 - there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 - there are priests (“presbyteroi”) in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus’ eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8 - heaven’s liturgical chant “Holy, Holy, Holy” is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8 - the various antiphonal chants in the heavenly liturgy are similar to those used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:1 - there is a book or scroll of God’s word in heaven. This is reflected in the Liturgy of the Word at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:6 and throughout - heaven’s description of Jesus as the “Lamb” is the same as the description of Jesus as the Lamb of God in the Eucharistic liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 - heaven’s emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 - there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 - heaven’s concluding liturgical prayer “Amen” is the same as is used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 6:9 - the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church’s tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars.
Rev. 7:3, 14:1, 22:4 - there is the sign of the cross (“tau”) in heaven. This sign is used during the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 7:9; 14:6 - the catholicity or universality of heaven as God’s family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth.
Rev. 8:1 - the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 - there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth.
Rev. 11:12 - the phrase “come up here” is similar to the priest’s charge to “lift up your hearts” at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 - heaven’s emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:7 - heaven’s emphasis on the Archangel Michael’s intercession is the same as the concluding prayers at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 14:4 - there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth.
Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 - there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ’s sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:3-4 - there is the recitation of the “Gloria” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:5 - there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 17, 19:9 - the consummation of the Lamb at heaven’s marriage supper is the same as the Lamb’s supper in the Holy Mass on earth. Rev. 19:1,3,4,6 - there is the recitation of the “Alleluia” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.

 

[Sanctus_Vir]

true it is that I know little of pagans. I can’t even spell ouji, lol. but I draw my opinions from what I do know. I didn’t exactly say demons, I also said spirits. I don’t mean to offend anyone. I know Wicca is just a branch off the Pagan religion like methodist is from christianity. But when you are young and a lady you knew pretty well wants you to call upon a ghost spirit with her and talk to your own grandfather by calling upon him from behind the grave it scares you alot. It sends shivers down my spine and leads me to my opinions. I can’t help feeling that way. I know alot about the gods like Gaia, Zeus, Hera, and even less known ones like Bridget the Goddess of healing; yet I don’t know most of the ways of worship, other than runes stones and incensce. Sorry for leading you all to be offended.

 

[rayne100]

I’ve had my taste of Pagans and Wiccans. Devil worshipers! I can’t stand them. They think they have proof by using boards to talk to the dead. They call only the demons. It is practiced the same way as Satanic worshipers. I would wish to condemn it all, just to save the lost souls. it’s a sad thing and giant stain on human kind. it gives the earth an evil smirk. Uggggghhhhh!

this is a bit harsh for this thread son’t you think?
Some one once told me that the minute you offend, you cease to communicate.
Instead of offending people’s beliefs (whether you believe in them or not) try stepping back and thinking before you post.
There are many on these boards who are not catholic or even christian. If you ever hope to be listened to by them, I would suggest another approach as this one serves to instigate hate and segregation.

for the record, I am catholic and I still think your approach leaves something to be desired.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

true it is that I know little of pagans. I can’t even spell ouji, lol. but I draw my opinions from what I do know.

well if you admit your opinions are based on limited knowledge, wouldn’t it be to your advantage to learn more about your subject and then you would not be accused of speaking in ignorance?

are you Catholic? (I ask because some of your comments on other threads do not sound very Catholic.)

I came to the Catholic Church after many years of suffering in a psuedo-Protestant cult and then in my pain and anger I embraced witchcraft–not Wicca–and honestly it is what led me to the Catholic Church. I would have never come to the Church from Protestant Christianity. Witchcraft allowed me to look at things with new eyes and be open-minded and to do research on the history of religions.

I had more demon involvement as a ‘christian’ than I ever did as a witch. I am not defending paganism, but I do not believe–having been on both sides now–that it is any more demonic than any other religion is capable of. Satan and his demons transform themselves into angels of light and hide in more situations considered ‘christian’ than people will ever know!

Ravyn

 

[Nino]

When Rome was Christianized, I understand that the Emperor drove out the pagans. Their temples and idols were left behind. Isn’t it true, that the Catholic Church copied the idea of statues from the pagans as holy examples of individuals who lived before them? And didn’t the pagans use incense in their worship, similar to what the Catholics do at Mass? Is this authorized worship in the manner of; “Thus saith the Lord”, or is this purely a man-made ritual/tradition?