Paganism can be Overexaggerated

[BlightWyvern]

Just going to post this stuff here out of curiosity of what you guys think.
I’ve seen a few threads talking about Paganism and its sects and a common thing I’ve noticed, while not necessarily here but in a lot of places how it’s “Satanic, evil, etc, etc”. I mean yes, by Godly standards it is evil or it’s Satan’s way of leading people astray. Sorry if this is like a story but I have seen so much oppression to these people it’s horrible. So what if they don’t have the same beliefs, that doesn’t make it right to yell, attack (physically, verbally) or anything else that makes them feel so…beneath everyone.

Anyone that claims Pagans are Satanists are ignorant. I want to point out some facts (if you hate facts, just skip down). Those that turn to “Satanism” are from the feelings to rebel against society (or parents) they think it’s cool to rebel, hang out in graveyards and then, maybe start doing blood sacrifices in the name of Lucifer. And, to quote a website: they are merely using Satanism as an excuse to dress Goth and engage in wild excesses of partying without guilt. Being a “Satanist” excuses them to partake of drugs, illegal or legal, listen to earsplitting music, engage in pseudo vampire activities of cutting and sucking blood, be sexually promiscuous and wakeup the next day not remembering any of it.

Satanism does have some “actual” followers though.
And a tidbit of advice: Understanding the difference between a PENTACLE and a PENTAGRAM to better teach people.

The Pentacle is the Pagan symbol. ONE POINT facing the top. The points mean spirit, water, fire, earth, and wind. Without these the world is not in balance. It is their icon.

Now THIS is a Pentagram: TWO points up. This symbolizes the Goat gouging heaven with his horns. THIS it the Devil symbol.

Trying to convert an actual Pagan back to Christianity through attacking saying that they shouldn’t be lured away from the true faith or they are wrong WILL NOT HELP. I say convert “back” because most Pagans were at one point Christian, but they have decided for one way or another to follow this path. Hence why telling them they are "evil, " “devil-worshippers” and “calling them to repentance before they are doomed to hell forever.” does little but make them feel they made the right choice.

They belive in a postive and negative force (like Yin-Yang) one cannot be without the other and they believe that this, if off balance is chaotic.

Let me branch off for a second to point out if you have a different religion than someone else, telling them that God or who you believe in doesn’t approve of it, does NOT help you with this person. They have their own beliefs and telling them they are going to hell will NOT phase them, (you can’t go to hell if you don’t believe in it). Telling them that Satan is tricking them does not work either. (They don’t believe in the devil).

Pagans are not bloodthirsty nor evil. They believe that they should respect the earth, and live at peace with it and view everything as their equal. They don’t belive that they should control, dominate, and make the effort to “tell the world” about their religion to get more followers. Pagans believe that the Goddess will call those to her and it is the sole choice of the individual to answer the call or not.

Yes they do rituals in order to honor the God and Goddess. They sing, chant, and worship. Hmmmm, if this is “satanic” then I can think of a few other religions that are “satanic”. Just because they don’t worship the way you do or worship in a different way or deity does not give you a right to accuse and abuse them for everything that is bad in the world. But of course thats what some religions teach right? “Don’t intermingle with the nonbelievers otherwise you are displeasing and wrong”. But you’re suppose to spread God’s Holy Word so that’s not a problem…or something.

I have seen many people where I live that are “Pagan” or of that religion and are basically treated like “lesser or sub human beings” and I think that is just wrong and awful. So that is what inspired me to write this.I am hoping that there are people here that can see where I am going with this and not take it wrong. I don’t think being nasty to anyone is right, especially if they want to share God’s love. agans experience oppression just as much as some other religions. Would you like it if someone started getting in your face about how you worship wrong? How your religion isn’t right? But Blighty my religion IS RIGHT. Ok well, that’s the mindset of other faiths too. While some religions don’t have tolerance for others, must we really scream threats at them? I understand those that cannot/will not be near people with different faiths. Sure, tell the masses that they are wrong (this isn’t just about Pagans but pretty much everyone and not aimed at any particualar religion) for what they do or practice freedom of speech and religion after all. But also consider kinder or gentler ways to try and convert. It may not be as fast of a converter but it sure as would be more effective…and better to do one on one with others. If they don’t convert or are firm in their beliefs, respect that. Don’t go hostile, don’t start trying to stay away from them now. Treat them also as a person.

 

[boomerang]

Your post is a good reminder that the greatest commandment is “to love”. We will not bring people to the Savior with arrogance and hostility. Even Pope Francis says that atheists can do Christ’s work, although they might not realize it, because they don’t know Jesus, but they are still doing Christ’s work just the same. We can all “meet there” (doing good works), Francis said. But this does not remove from us the obligation of witnessing for Christ and trying to steer others onto the narrow path. But we are called upon to do so with love and charity.

 

[BlightWyvern]

Oh I know. I wasn’t saying don’t witness at all! I just think that alot of people (at least around where I live) need to be reminded that being hateful doesn’t do anything, I think being mindful of other people and the like however and knowing where they stand helps us get a better grasp on how and what to witness with them about

 

[alexandratm]

I dabbled in paganism for a few years, doing a lot of reading and research, before deciding it wasn’t for me. The good side of paganism? At least from my perspective, a pagan may be more open to Catholic devotion to Mary and prayers to the Saints. For me, I was exploring paganism, because I felt lost in the very masculine centered version of protestantism I found. In paganism, there is a rich worship of female deities - and that made turning to Mary so much easier for me. It was through Mary I found the Catholic church. I had no such hangups about praying to Mary that many protestants have.

I think the Catholic church has a lot to appeal to pagans, many of whom I believe are simply lost. There are some who are strong in their faith, but for the majority I encountered in the USA, they were former protestants who were looking for something that couldn’t be found in their churches. Instead of viewing them as evil Satanist (which for most, they aren’t), finding the parallels may be the road to evangelization.

 

[Skadi]

The Pentacle is the Pagan symbol. ONE POINT facing the top. The points mean spirit, water, fire, earth, and wind. Without these the world is not in balance. It is their icon.

Now THIS is a Pentagram: TWO points up. This symbolizes the Goat gouging heaven with his horns. THIS it the Devil symbol.

This actually isnt correct. The difference between a pentacle and a pentagram is that pentagram is surrounded by a circle touching all 5 points, while a pentacle is simply a five pointed star. And Inverted Pentagram is often considered a satanic symbol (although it is also used by some Wiccans as a symbol for learners or people in the early stages of initiation) while the others can be a symbol of many pagan or new age groups.

Your whole post is spot on though. I actually find Christians threats of a firey hell if i dont kneel before Christ rather comical. I respect Christ as a historical figure, but i do not have the same respect for some of his followers or their terrorizing attempts to proselytize.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

At the same time to ignore the terrible things pagans did in the name of their cults as an under exageration. It was pagans who forced (or tried to force) Christians to honour the genius of Ceaser and force the Jews at the time of Judas Maccabeas to sacrifice to the gods.

 

[Skadi]

Or the 80,000 Saxons Charlemagne put to death for refusal of baptism. Or the widespread destruction of pagan temples and lynching of pagans and philosophers in the century following Christianitys ascent to dominance in the Roman empire.

Both Christianity and the innumerable Pagan faiths have done terrible thongs to both each other and other groups of themselves. However, Pagan persecution of Christians was usualy for secular and often political reasons (Christians make wonderful scape goats, they just got blamed for the failure of Obamacare actually.) Christian persecution of pagans tends to be because they arnt Christian.

 

[Nine_Two]

Both Christianity and the innumerable Pagan faiths have done terrible thongs to both each other and other groups of themselves. However, Pagan persecution of Christians was usualy for secular and often political reasons (Christians make wonderful scape goats, they just got blamed for the failure of Obamacare actually.) Christian persecution of pagans tends to be because they arnt Christian.

I think that is quite a dreadful generalization to make, and one which doesn’t make much sense if you actually think about it.
Why do Christians make such wonderful scapegoats? Because they are different, because we are instructed to hold ourselves apart from the world.
Which very much brings us back to your reason for the persecution of pagans - We are persecuted because we aren’t the same.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Or the 80,000 Saxons Charlemagne put to death for refusal of baptism. Or the widespread destruction of pagan temples and lynching of pagans and philosophers in the century following Christianitys ascent to dominance in the Roman empire.

Both Christianity and the innumerable Pagan faiths have done terrible thongs to both each other and other groups of themselves. However, Pagan persecution of Christians was usualy for secular and often political reasons (Christians make wonderful scape goats, they just got blamed for the failure of Obamacare actually.) Christian persecution of pagans tends to be because they arnt Christian.

the question isn’t who of the claimed religion has done the bad things, they have all done bad things. The question is are they in line with their religious beliefs? I think the gods of greece would be quite satisfied with the deaths of those who refused to honour them, ie Christians and jews.

I also deny the idea it was primarily political, you have in mind some sort of seperation between church and state, between religion and politics, which at the time didn’t exist. Christians were looked upon not as theists but as atheists, they denied the gods and denied sacrificing to them, that was one of the chief reasons why they were so persecuted along with refusing to honour the emperor. Chrisitans were seen as god deniers, people who practiced immortality (cannabalism) and the such. I see no reason to say that grecro/roman pagnaism was against such a practice.

Christianity on contrast has never encouraged the killing of heretics. Once however Christianity gained power people thought the need to enforce it and that is not Christianity. Christianity is best represented by the first three hundred years and the teachings of Christ, not latter generations.

 

[Skadi]

the question isn’t who of the claimed religion has done the bad things, they have all done bad things. The question is are they in line with their religious beliefs? I think the gods of greece would be quite satisfied with the deaths of those who refused to honour them, ie Christians and jews.

I also deny the idea it was primarily political, you have in mind some sort of seperation between church and state, between religion and politics, which at the time didn’t exist. Christians were looked upon not as theists but as atheists, they denied the gods and denied sacrificing to them, that was one of the chief reasons why they were so persecuted along with refusing to honour the emperor. Chrisitans were seen as god deniers, people who practiced immortality (cannabalism) and the such. I see no reason to say that grecro/roman pagnaism was against such a practice.

Christianity on contrast has never encouraged the killing of heretics. Once however Christianity gained power people thought the need to enforce it and that is not Christianity. Christianity is best represented by the first three hundred years and the teachings of Christ, not latter generations.

Firstly, where are you getting your information to make this claim that the gods of the Greeks would rather have the Jews and Christians killed than let them live not worshiping them? Where is the writings or the oral traditions that say that? There are none, because that statement is false. Pagans don’t proselytize.

Further more, it is political, As Jews received special treatment within the Roman empire and were not required to make sacrifice to any other gods. However after the two Jewish revolts in the late first and early second centuries Christians distanced themselves from Jews. The became their own religion, much unlike the more common religions (though very similar to Mithranism) and often shrouded in mystery. People believed Christians participated in orgy’s and cannibalism, as early masses were called “love feasts”. They had not territory of the empire where they were dominant, they were very strange and different by Roman standards, they held nor real position of power, and they were viewed as you said, as athiests, they were the perfect scapegoats for political and military failure. Dozens if not hundreds of religions existed in the Roman empire, Christianity was singled out because it was different, and because its missionaries were out walking the streets doing something pagans tend to frown on, proselytizing

And lastly, there are several instances in the bible of YHWH condemning people to death (Jericho, Sadam, The flood, Canaan) so its not as if I worship a god who orders the extinction of entire ethnic groups. Im afraid your post contains gross assumption and exaggeration.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Firstly, where are you getting your information to make this claim that the gods of the Greeks would rather have the Jews and Christians killed than let them live not worshiping them? Where is the writings or the oral traditions that say that? There are none, because that statement is false. Pagans don’t proselytize.

Further more, it is political, As Jews received special treatment within the Roman empire and were not required to make sacrifice to any other gods. However after the two Jewish revolts in the late first and early second centuries Christians distanced themselves from Jews. The became their own religion, much unlike the more common religions (though very similar to Mithranism) and often shrouded in mystery. People believed Christians participated in orgy’s and cannibalism, as early masses were called “love feasts”. They had not territory of the empire where they were dominant, they were very strange and different by Roman standards, they held nor real position of power, and they were viewed as you said, as athiests, they were the perfect scapegoats for political and military failure. Dozens if not hundreds of religions existed in the Roman empire, Christianity was singled out because it was different, and because its missionaries were out walking the streets doing something pagans tend to frown on, proselytizing

And lastly, there are several instances in the bible of YHWH condemning people to death (Jericho, Sadam, The flood, Canaan) so its not as if I worship a god who orders the extinction of entire ethnic groups. Im afraid your post contains gross assumption and exaggeration.

Have you not read any of the traditional accounts within paganism as to the vindictive nature of the gods? Specifically that greek mythology? How Zeus became a man and raped many women and Hera unable to get back at her brother/Husband took out her anger and killed the women? How when pirates dishonoured the wine God he turned them into dolphins? The greek gods were proud and amoral, not caring about morality but seeking whatever they wanted when it could avoid fate. Read the Oddyssy, read the Illiad, Read the Metamoropheses or any other of the traditional collections to see for yourself (I have read these). I am convinced they would be quite satisifed with the deaths of those who denied them their place other the element or providence they claimed. Christians and jews have done exactly that and said God is provident over all. The Christian religion was an insult to them as we can see in some instances in the book of acts, their people were fiercely (when the need called) defensive of their gods.

Secondly I do not deny the political aspect, but it was equally religious on their account. The refusal of Christians to honour the gods or the cult of the emperor was to the pagans some sort of atheism. We can see this in the early sources, from the works of Tacitius, the letter of Pliny to the emperor, the martyrdom of Polycarp, Justin Martyr’s apology and etc. Christians were abhorred for denying the gods, refusing to sacrifice to them was one of the chief reasons by which they were killed, because it was viewed as a very important thing. To not honour the gods meant you risked destruction of your city and everything around you. Theres a reason why Augustine wrote the City of God against paganism, because Pagans began to blame the fall of Rome on the Christian religion, that the gods had been abandoned and that account there contains all of the errors and faults of pagan religion. I recommend you read the City of God to learn how and why the gods of Greece and Rome cannot be trusted.

Thirdly, yes God did condemn people to death. God righteously condemns people to death, being the lord over all creation he has the right to take life when he sees fit. I deny the pagan gods this right because they are nothing but either lies or Demons. Yes my God ordered the destruction of those whom were in israel, but it wasn’t ethnic, it was for their gross sin, in denying the one true God and their abominadble practices, or you do appreciate the child sacrifice of ancient pagans in the near east?

 

[NoWings]

This thread reminds me of something I realized a while ago. If you step back from the Old Testament and stop reading it as an account of historical events (whether literal, or allegorical, etc) and instead read it like any other localized writing from a specific people of a specific place, it reads just like any other mythology one can find.

Thirdly, yes God did condemn people to death. God righteously condemns people to death, being the lord over all creation he has the right to take life when he sees fit. I deny the pagan gods this right because they are nothing but either lies or Demons. Yes my God ordered the destruction of those whom were in israel, but it wasn’t ethnic, it was for their gross sin, in denying the one true God and their abominadble practices, or you do appreciate the child sacrifice of ancient pagans in the near east?

So it’s butchery and demonic when Pagans do it but it’s righteous judgment when your own God does it? You’re talking about the Greek gods being jealous and vindictive? Is Yhvh not a jealous God as well? Or is it different when He does it?

 

[Skadi]

Have you not read any of the traditional accounts within paganism as to the vindictive nature of the gods? Specifically that greek mythology? How Zeus became a man and raped many women and Hera unable to get back at her brother/Husband took out her anger and killed the women? How when pirates dishonoured the wine God he turned them into dolphins? The greek gods were proud and amoral, not caring about morality but seeking whatever they wanted when it could avoid fate. Read the Oddyssy, read the Illiad, Read the Metamoropheses or any other of the traditional collections to see for yourself (I have read these). I am convinced they would be quite satisifed with the deaths of those who denied them their place other the element or providence they claimed. Christians and jews have done exactly that and said God is provident over all. The Christian religion was an insult to them as we can see in some instances in the book of acts, their people were fiercely (when the need called) defensive of their gods.

Secondly I do not deny the political aspect, but it was equally religious on their account. The refusal of Christians to honour the gods or the cult of the emperor was to the pagans some sort of atheism. We can see this in the early sources, from the works of Tacitius, the letter of Pliny to the emperor, the martyrdom of Polycarp, Justin Martyr’s apology and etc. Christians were abhorred for denying the gods, refusing to sacrifice to them was one of the chief reasons by which they were killed, because it was viewed as a very important thing. To not honour the gods meant you risked destruction of your city and everything around you. Theres a reason why Augustine wrote the City of God against paganism, because Pagans began to blame the fall of Rome on the Christian religion, that the gods had been abandoned and that account there contains all of the errors and faults of pagan religion. I recommend you read the City of God to learn how and why the gods of Greece and Rome cannot be trusted.

Thirdly, yes God did condemn people to death. God righteously condemns people to death, being the lord over all creation he has the right to take life when he sees fit. I deny the pagan gods this right because they are nothing but either lies or Demons. Yes my God ordered the destruction of those whom were in israel, but it wasn’t ethnic, it was for their gross sin, in denying the one true God and their abominadble practices, or you do appreciate the child sacrifice of ancient pagans in the near east?

Herein is the difference between Judeo-Christian religion and Indo-Aryan paganism. I do not see my gods as perfect beings. Odin and Thor make mistakes, have faults, and are held accountable for their actions. On the other hand you place YHWH so high that even when he commands the breaking of his own laws via the genocidal massacre of every Canaanite man woman and child in Israel it is righteous. My stories, as the Greeks were, are allegorical, did Zeus actually come down and rape women on the earth? I highly doubt it. But we do know what happened to the peoples of Canaan, including their children, some of whom were far to young to possibly be considered accomplices to whatever “crime” they were committing, unless that was existing. Either the bible is incorrect, or it is correct and YHWH ordered the massacre of thousands. My gods have done no such thing.

And I have read a good portion of City of God, and I would not doubt it is possible the Gods of the Romans abandoned them after they themselves were abandoned for YHWH. I certainly believe my German ancestors were abandoned after the Nazi’s corrupted the symbols and legends of the old ways, and because of that my peoples homeland was laid absolute waste and occupied by its traditional enemies, France and Russia.

I will go over City of God again as you suggest as its been quite a while, but I will suggest some reading for you as well, from the same vein in history. Julian’s Against the Galileans, a masterwork of apologetics.