Paganism

[brotherhrolf]

I’m reading a science fiction novel by S. M. Stirling called Dies the Fire in which one of the chief characters is Wiccan. I have a real problem with this though probably not from the direction you might think. From an anthropological/historical viewpoint, ancient Celtic and Norse religions have not been practiced for over a thousand years or so. There is no continuity in their “priesthood” and any “rites” they have developed cannot be even remotely compared to what might or might not have been a “rite” fifteen hundred years ago.
(We Catholics CAN trace the development and evolution of the Mass across two thousand years).

So, it seems to me we have to accept that these “rites” and beliefs are relatively new. I simply cannot envision someone who has been exposed to the concept of God (monotheism) reverting back to gods (polytheism) particularly when you have to acknowledge that these beliefs have not been practiced for a thousand years or more. I don’t know. I just think that a belief in a religion that is entirely made up just seems to be way too far beyond my comprehension. I’d like to know what motivates someone in this day and age to believe in this.

 

[Della]

Modern Paganism (not the real thing practiced hundreds of years ago) allows people to style themselves as “gods”, so it is attractive to think there are “gods” everywhere, especially in the natural world. It’s a rejection both of Christian morality and modern mechanism and technology.

 

[Cockney_Clive]

Its an interesting point you bring up. I think that the rites and even the ‘theology’ of modern Paganism; Wicca; and so forth is wholly made up, much during the 19th century or even later. A lot of the rites one finds in Wicca can be dated to approximately the rise of a certain type of Feminism, circa 1970’s.

Here in UK we have people who call themselves ‘Druids’ who go assemble at Stonehenge every Equinox to ‘worship’ the rising Sun. But heck, what do we really know about the ancient religions? Especially those, like Druidism which were never written down. Many world cultures were pre-literate societies. So far as I know and the British Museum confirms, the written word (Latin) was brought to our shores (England) by the Romans.

So many of these rites and ceremonies were wholly made up by Victorian gnentlemen scholars with vivid imaginations. They had to be because there is no continuous chain of tradition or belief of druidism that exists from 3,000 years ago and which has never been extinguished. This is of course in stark contrast to Holy Mother Church herself.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Clive: I think you hit it right on the head. The Romans pretty well wiped out the Druids on Anglesey (I hope I got that right - island off western Welsh/English coast?) long before Christianity was established in England. So all of this is really a Victorian era invention - with emphasis on the word invention.

Of course, to my fundamentalist protestant pastor neighbor across the street, as a Catholic, I am a witch because I have (shudder) candles in my house! (Shades of Monty P.!). No, I’m not making this up. We do have votive candles with St. Michael, St. Joseph, BVM, and St. Jude on a mantlepiece under a St. Francis Cross. We use them when the power goes out and we lit them just before the hurricane hit. So, I’m not trying to knock them, I simply want to know how could anyone believe in such a thing knowing that it was an invention?

 

[cheddarsox]

I hang with a lot of pagans, so I can offer some insight as to why some of them practice their religions.

Some do it to honor their heritage and ancestors.

Others because they were always “attracted” to a certain culture from history and they got involved in the old religion as a way to connect to said culture.

Some because they are attracted to the magical aspects of some pagan faiths.

Some have had a personal revealatory experience from a deity.

Some in response to bad experiences in other faiths, they want to practice their spirituality and try a pagan faith because what they tried before didnt’ work.

Some out of fun.

Some because they feel that no religion can really explain the divine, but they feel that the archetypes portrayed by the religion they choose makes sense and is a good way to go.

Some because they believe that the ancients had it right and they seek to be right themselves.

Some because they feel that old religions are silly and so they are attracted to a modern religion which they feel holds modern revelations of truth.

Those are a few reasons.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

brotherhrolf:

I simply want to know how could anyone believe in such a thing knowing that it was an invention?

Certainly some pagan religions are modern. To you they are inventions, to the folks that practice them, they can also be seen as modern revelation.

There are also very old religions (not all pagan types are Norse or Celtic) and no one really knows the origin of them.

Since the word pagan covers literally thousands of religions from 6 continents, it is inaccurate to label them all as modern invention. Some of them are older than Christianity.

Also, a good many people believe that “all religions lead to God” so it doesn’t matter to them if a religion is made up, they feel all religions are made up, that it is the spiritual growth of the individual, not the beliefs and practices, that are important.

cheddar

 

[brotherhrolf]

Cheddarsox: OK, so if I suddenly get this urge to resurrect the practice of worshipping Woden, its cool? I can go out in my backyard, don whatever clothing as may seem ancient, invent some ritual and begin “worshipping” Woden? Sorry, but what connection does that have to the “priests” and “rites” of Woden which existed prior to the Anglo-Saxon conversion to Christianity?

Modern revelations? OK, so if I have been on a spree of reading H.P. Lovecraft novels and decide that Cthullu is the real thing (well OK at least I’d have some guidance as to what to say…Ia, ia Cthullu, etc.) that this is OK?’’

I just don’t get it. I can’t see how someone could deliberately attempt to resurect a faith that had not been practiced for hundreds if not thousands of years…much less than a modern revelation.

BTW, I do have some experience with neo-pagans. They couldn’t answer my questions about why. It seems to me if you can’t answer the question, why?.. Is there faith? Is there a religion? As a Catholic, I can answer why. What then is the difference?

 

[msh]

brotherhrolf:

Cheddarsox: OK, so if I suddenly get this urge to resurrect the practice of worshipping Woden, its cool? I can go out in my backyard, don whatever clothing as may seem ancient, invent some ritual and begin “worshipping” Woden? Sorry, but what connection does that have to the “priests” and “rites” of Woden which existed prior to the Anglo-Saxon conversion to Christianity?

Actually, yeah, that’s basically the premise that (many) people operate under these days. There are people who revive Hellenistic worship, people who decide they’ll start their own coven with their own personalized goddess and god that their high priestess recieved orders from in a trance. Do some people involved in pagan religions who are recent converts actually try to follow something established or recognised? Yes, I’ve known a few who have researched whatever path they have fallen into, and usually those are people who take up with a Native American tribe and literally adopt the culture.

The majority of people who have been involved in paganism that I have known? They make it up. It’s a pick and mix of whatever feels right, whatever you feel your spirit saying to you - whatever. Literally whatever. If your totem tells you to dress in a pink tutu and you feel “compelled” to go out on a new moon eve and hold a “fairy” conference, by all means, there is a group for you.

I think the reason a lot of kids fell into it was because it was a rebellion of whatever religion (or lack thereof) was pushed upon them growing up. They need something to give them esteem “Look at what I can control” “Something makes me special” “This is different and I don’t have to do much to fit in”. Yeah, that comprised a lot of why my friends and I studied up on different pagan religions. That mentality encompassed a lot of adults we met who wanted to show us this different religious experience. Truth of the matter? Totally boring. There was nothing there to convince us of anything spectacular happening, other than a bunch of people dressed funny, talking funny, and looking silly as they casted imaginary circles in the ground and tried to emanate energy from their minds.

And we wanted to believe, we did. There was just nothing there to believe aside from being mosquito bitten in the middle of some muddy field.

 

[Zooey]

brotherhrolf:

Cheddarsox: OK, so if I suddenly get this urge to resurrect the practice of worshipping Woden, its cool? I can go out in my backyard, don whatever clothing as may seem ancient, invent some ritual and begin “worshipping” Woden? Sorry, but what connection does that have to the “priests” and “rites” of Woden which existed prior to the Anglo-Saxon conversion to Christianity?

That seems to be about it…I actually know a woman who does worship Woden/Odin, as a matter of fact…
I always figured she was a nice but flaky product of a family who didn’t believe in anything, you know? Then she let slip that she went to Catholic school…
Her grown up daughter & her family worship Isis & Osiris.
I can’t figure it out, unless it is some kind of need to somehow have a “religion” without having to actually believe in anything–if that makes any sense. It’s kinda sad, really.

 

[Chris_W]

This interests me though I know little about it. My interest lies in trying to determine what the payoff is. Sometimes I come across some guru on a local cable access channel, who sits in front of a group of people with this perma-smile on his face. He hardly says a thing and when he does it is a simple 2 or 3 word statement. The camera scans the crowd and there is this look of joyous wonder on their faces. I can only imagine that they must be sitting there thinking “whatever he has, that’s what I want…he’s so happy and peaceful” (fake as he may be).

My point? There is a reason someone would take up religion. The challenge is to determine what the pay off is. What is it they seek? If we can learn this, we have hope of conversion. What people feel a need for, even if distorted, that which is lacking in their lives, we know God can answer through true faith.

Is it peace of mind, or consolation, or fellowship, belonging, feeling loved, feeling forgiveness, feeling in touch with the mysterious? That’s what we need to ask ourselves in the chance encounters with these folks, so that we can learn how best to spread the Good News to them. I think we need to understand them, rather than merely chock it up to foolishness. Perhaps they know deep down how foolish it is, but it must meet a need if they keep going.

So many people are lost and in need. Who will help them if not us?

 

[cheddarsox]

Cheddarsox: OK, so if I suddenly get this urge to resurrect the practice of worshipping Woden, its cool?

**There are many schools of thought on that. Some pagans (who usually identify themselves as eclectic) are of the cafeteria type. They pick and choose and do what suits them.

Others believe you must be called by a deity, or have a cultural or ancestral connection, and study the history and practices of a religion before you go off on your own.

Some believe that you can do harm and offend the deity by acting in your own manner,rather than in the traditional manner that has been revealed as appropriate for that deity.**

I can go out in my backyard, don whatever clothing as may seem ancient, invent some ritual and begin “worshipping” Woden? Sorry, but what connection does that have to the “priests” and “rites” of Woden which existed prior to the Anglo-Saxon conversion to Christianity?

Modern revelations? OK, so if I have been on a spree of reading H.P. Lovecraft novels and decide that Cthullu is the real thing (well OK at least I’d have some guidance as to what to say…Ia, ia Cthullu, etc.) that this is OK?’’

**Again, see above. I am not an expert on all religions and practices within paganism, nor is it my purpose to explain or defend all their practices. I only offer information that I know, which is useful in this discussion.

Some religions require the faithful to gather with others, study and go through initiation, others are open to free and solitary practice. We are talking about thousands of religions here, they each have their own protocol, and some apparently have no protocol whatsoever.**

I just don’t get it. I can’t see how someone could deliberately attempt to resurect a faith that had not been practiced for hundreds if not thousands of years…much less than a modern revelation.

Not all of these religions are a resurrection of the past, some have been continually practiced by their people, and others have had elements of them retained in the practices and cultures of their people. Modern pagans may feel that they are setting things right to return to the old ways, support the old religion and restore that which was abandoned or sullied over the centuries.

** People often reach into the past and their culture of origin to inform themselves and gain wisdom from those who have gone before them, as well as to remind themselves who they are, where they come from and what has been their source of meaning and identity.**

BTW, I do have some experience with neo-pagans. They couldn’t answer my questions about why. It seems to me if you can’t answer the question, why?.. Is there faith?

**Here is something to think about. If you (and you have presented yourself as such) don’t want to ,or due to personality cannot, see any good reason, or validity or sense in pagan religions, you wont, no matter what explanations are given to you. You can be told why, and reject the reasons. That doesn’t change the fact that there are reasons.

Yes there is faith. I know a great many people who follow indigenous religions, reconstructionist religions, earth centered religions, etc. that have great faith, practice their faith and it is real and important in their life. There are also yahoos who just like to dress up, wave magic wands and get a rise out of people.

There are thousands of religions out there. Those which don’t fall under the big 5 are usually referred to as pagan. That encompasses a huge variety of practices, faiths etc. If you look, you can find lots of things to condemn and lots of things to admire among these thousands of religions. It is not honest or fair to lump them together and make blanket statements about the religions or their followers. **

Is there a religion?
Thousands of religions. And their whys will differ. People honor their deities because they believe it is right to do so, they are called to do so.

As a Catholic, I can answer why. What then is the difference?

**I’m not sure I understand what type of difference you are looking for. Surely there are both similarities and differences between the Catholic faith and other religions.

I would guess you would need to ask specific questions to the people who practice the individual religions. I cannot answer for them.**

cheddar

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

brotherhrolf:

…Modern revelations? OK, so if I have been on a spree of reading H.P. Lovecraft novels and decide that Cthullu is the real thing (well OK at least I’d have some guidance as to what to say…Ia, ia Cthullu, etc.) that this is OK?..

Something like this apparently has happened. Thousands of people reportedly have claimed Star Wars Jedi as their religion. While I expect many, probably most of these are not serious, some appear to be:

explorefaith.org/news/05_17_05.html

 

[brotherhrolf]

Cheddarsox: Thanks for your replies. I don’t think I’m making myself very clear although Joseph’s reply really does come close to what I am getting at.

I am not trying to lump large groups of people into anything. You are quite correct - there are thousands of religions given all the peoples and cultures of this world. As an anthropologist who has studied religion, I had a course once entitled Magic, Science and Religion which explored the differences and similarities betwen the three belief systems. It was fascinating - particularly viewing science as a belief system. So my questions are not to criticize - I am genuinely seeking understanding.

Let’s just use Joseph’s example for what I am trying to get at. Everyone knows that the “force” is a concept invented by George Lucas. Lucas was heavily influenced by the anthropologist Joseph Cambell - all of whose books I have read. Now obviously there are those who claim Jedi as a religion just for grins. But what about those who believe? This is what I was getting at in my question. How can you believe something which you know, concretely, is the construct of a movie released in 1977 and is demonstrably not real? If it is demonstrably not real, how can there be faith in that? To me, that’s a huge disconnect and that is what I am having trouble trying to understand.

 

[brotherhrolf]

There is an article over on Beliefnet (Catholic section) by Carl McColman which I found tremendously informative. He was not raised as a Christian but embraced paganism early on. His article describes his faith journey and in his visits to Ireland he met more of the mystical from the Christian sites (Clonmacnoise) than the pagan (Newgrange, Tara). But he did answer many of the questions I posed.

 

[AnAtheist]

brotherhrolf:

IThere is no continuity in their “priesthood” and any “rites” they have developed cannot be even remotely compared to what might or might not have been a “rite” fifteen hundred years ago.
(We Catholics CAN trace the development and evolution of the Mass across two thousand years).

That differs from Christianity in 80 AD how?

“Papa, I am a Christian now.”
“What, this modern stuff without any tradition? It is not even 50 years old! How dare you?”

 

[Pax]

brotherhrolf,

I also find people and their motivations to be a curiousity. Although denials will be immediate, my sense is that a lot of people embrace these religious oddities because it intellectually and emotionally frees them from what they should otherwise properly believe.

I have a friend who speaks about spiritual/religious matters from contradictory positions. He will sometimes say Christian prayers at a meal with family members, and will gratefully accept prayers from myself and others when he is in difficulty. On the other hand, he will also tell me that he believes in something which can only be described as pantheism. He has no desire to attend church, read the bible, or submit to God or any religious authority. He will even admit that he has “a problem” with authority although he is a law abiding citizen.

It is quite possible that many of the new age and cult type belief systems are embraced simply as a way of dodging the life changing implications of believing in the truth. This is obviously just a guess on my part because I do not read minds and motivations any better than I can understand calculus and higher math. These things are generally out of my scope of understanding and discernment.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

AnAtheist:

That differs from Christianity in 80 AD how?

“Papa, I am a Christian now.”
“What, this modern stuff without any tradition? It is not even 50 years old! How dare you?”

If you had read, you would note that he is not claiming Christianity is right merely because it is ancient. But that there is continuity simply not found in neo-paganism. Nothing looks sillier than saving up a zinger (and an unoriginal one to boot) and posting it at the inappropriate time.

Scott

 

[Pax]

AnAtheist:

That differs from Christianity in 80 AD how?

“Papa, I am a Christian now.”
“What, this modern stuff without any tradition? It is not even 50 years old! How dare you?”

It appears that you fail to grasp the connection of Christianity as the fulfillment of Judaism. The old covenant finds its fulfillment in the new covenant and was not simply some invention. There are some excellent books covering the connections and fulfillments. Christianity looks to Abraham “as the father of us all in faith” as witnessed to by Paul in Romans 4:16.

Surely, you can see that your statement and laughter is unwarranted.

 

[AnAtheist]

Pax:

It appears that you fail to grasp the connection of Christianity as the fulfillment of Judaism.

Yes, I and millions of Jews fail to see that.

around 2000 BC:
“Papa, I believe in Jehova now.”
“What, that modern stuff without tradition? It is not even 50 years old!”

 

[AnAtheist]

Scott Waddell:

If you had read, you would note that he is not claiming Christianity is right merely because it is ancient.

I know, but the implication is there, that neo-paganism is wrong, merely because it is new. There was a time, when Christianity was new, and that argument would have applied too. And I am sure a lot of Roman children heart that from their parents.