Pagans Plan Pride Day To Ease Misgivings

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Peace-bwu:
Pagan Pride Day…

So if we don’t call all the Polytheistic, Nature based, ancient God or Goddess, wicca/witchcraft etc. “Pagan” what do we call them? It is a nighmare. If I had to list all the various protestant denominations by name the list would go on for an hour or more.
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The difference is Protestant denominations are related in the sense that they are Christian and share the history of the reformation. So called pagan religions come from 6 different continents over the course of 6000 years, untold numbers of cultures and languages and have no common ancestor.

So, inconvenient or not, the term pagan just isn’t very useful except when you want to lump all of that together, and Pagan Pride day might be a good example of such a time. But, if you want to be correct when discussing beliefs, the term pagan simply wont work. There are no shared beliefs among the so called pagan religions.

How correct you want to be is up to you.

cheddar
 
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buffalo:
It seems to fit:

pa·gan cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg ( P ) Pronunciation Key (phttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifghttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifn)
n.


  1. *]One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
    *] One who has no religion.
    *] A non-Christian.
    *] A hedonist.
    *] A Neo-Pagan.

    adj.

    1. *]Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
      *] Professing no religion; heathen.
      *] Neo-Pagan.
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    1. Again, think context. Under the circumstances that all you are tying to do is talk about all religions that are not Christian, Muslim or Jewish, the term pagan is fine. Once you start saying things like “pagans believe…” you are going to be incorrect.

      Pagan Pride Day, may be a day for all religious who are not Christian, Muslim or Jewish to gather. That would be a correct use. Saying “Pagans worship idols” would be incorrect, because not all pagans do.

      To understand this, put yourself in the shoes of the group you are reffering to, There are many circumstances in which Catholics would prefer not to be “lumped” with Protestants under the term Christian (used generically). Because, yes, you are Christian, but there are important (to you) distinctions.

      I could quote a dictionary entry to you to “prove” you are Christian, but in certain circumstances it does make a difference that you are a CATHOLIC christian. Same with pagans.

      cheddar
 
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cheddarsox:
My religion (pantheism) is often included in the group of religions referred to as “pagan”, so I find myself spending a good bit of time with these people.
cheddar
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First, thanks for sharing your views. The message board remains relevant when we hear from non-Catholics.

Second, my impression is that the word pagan is a word which only makes sense in opposition to Christianity. The word meaning “hick” makes sense considering that Christianity started out in the cities and was considered an urban phenomenon. Out in the countryside, people remained conservative thinkers, remaining true to the “old religion” which was primarily Greco-Roman.
 
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st.jerome:
First, thanks for sharing your views. The message board remains relevant when we hear from non-Catholics.

Second, my impression is that the word pagan is a word which only makes sense in opposition to Christianity. The word meaning “hick” makes sense considering that Christianity started out in the cities and was considered an urban phenomenon. Out in the countryside, people remained conservative thinkers, remaining true to the “old religion” which was primarily Greco-Roman.
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Thanks for the welcome.

Yes, that is the origin of the word pagan. Like so many words in a dynamic language, it has taken on other shades of meaning over the years.

when I was in Parochial school we used to adopt pagan babies and give them Saint’s names, the flowery the better as I recall.
Surely many of those babies were Muslim or Hindu (usually not considered pagan religions in modern time). I cringe now when I recall it, but like most “mistakes” one made in ignorance, not malice.

I don’t consider the term pagan an insult, just not particularly useful or accurate.

cheddar
 
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cheddarsox:
Thanks for the welcome.

Yes, that is the origin of the word pagan. Like so many words in a dynamic language, it has taken on other shades of meaning over the years.

when I was in Parochial school we used to adopt pagan babies and give them Saint’s names, the flowery the better as I recall.
Surely many of those babies were Muslim or Hindu (usually not considered pagan religions in modern time). I cringe now when I recall it, but like most “mistakes” one made in ignorance, not malice.

I don’t consider the term pagan an insult, just not particularly useful or accurate.

cheddar
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Since you grew up Catholic why did you trun to Pantheism?
 
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buffalo:
Since you grew up Catholic why did you trun to Pantheism?
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Long story which, if shared here, could be construed to be prosteletyzing against Catholicism or some other such thing that might get my post to mysteriously disappear into the abyss, as many of them have lately.

Perhaps this would be better taken up in PM?

I don’t mind sharing, but perhaps the mods wouldn’t like it so much.

cheddar
 
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cheddarsox:
Long story which, if shared here, could be construed to be prosteletyzing against Catholicism or some other such thing that might get my post to mysteriously disappear into the abyss, as many of them have lately.

Perhaps this would be better taken up in PM?

I don’t mind sharing, but perhaps the mods wouldn’t like it so much.

cheddar
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Cool - PM me.
 
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cheddarsox:
Surely many of those babies were Muslim or Hindu (usually not considered pagan religions in modern time).
cheddar
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Might be better to consider their biological parents Muslim or Hindu. Those babies very well might have matured into Christians, considering the adoption:)
 
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cheddarsox:
I wasn’t getting offended. Notice the (wink) just saying my piece. Like I said, we don’t mind if you call us pagans, not a problem, but its a word that is SO inclusive as to be nearly useless, except when shopping online!

I was trying to offer a bit of perspective. Think of it this way, what if Hindus decided to refer to people of every religion that wasn’t Hindu as “Yeeshaks”. And then, with some regularity, referred to “Yeeshaks” as being this, that and the other way (You know those Yeeshaks!) Sometimes, you might get tired of being lumped in a group with hundred of religions and faith traditions that shared no history and bore no resemblence to your beliefs. I don’t expect anyone here to become a buff on all the religions they are not. That is silly. I just like to remind people that “paganism” is not a religion, or even a related family of religions. It is a catch all term that tells you nothing about the people and their faiths.

Also, there are many religions that Yeeshaks lump under the title of pagan, when the practitioners of those religions do not identify as pagans. And that can be construed as disrespectful. That people don’t respect your tradition enough to call it by it’s legitimate name. Sort of like Catholics (rightly) becoming annoyed when folks tell them they are not Christian, you don’t want to be falsely identified in the family of non-Christian religions.

Want a better term than pagan? You could try…reconstructionist faiths, idigenous faiths, polytheistic faiths, etc depending on which groups you were discussing.

Nothing was especially offensive. People do respond, even when they are NOT offended, because they have something to add to the conversation.

cheddar
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Alright, I’m sorry about that. To be honest, I thought the wink was kinda a taunt:o. Take it easy.
 
Well, it will take more than a “Pride Day” to ease my misgivings. My experience with pagans in West Africa is that they practice human sacrifice–even now, in the twenty-first century (hint: Google “Liberia heartmen”). That the modern American pagans claim influence from Druids gives me scant comfort, since the Druids two millenia ago also practiced human sacrifice. And the pagans in Mexico one millenium ago did so on a vast scale. And the pagans in the Middle East three millenia ago also practiced it. Does anybody else see a pattern here?
  • Liberian
 
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Liberian:
Well, it will take more than a “Pride Day” to ease my misgivings. My experience with pagans in West Africa is that they practice human sacrifice–even now, in the twenty-first century (hint: Google “Liberia heartmen”). That the modern American pagans claim influence from Druids gives me scant comfort, since the Druids two millenia ago also practiced human sacrifice. And the pagans in Mexico one millenium ago did so on a vast scale. And the pagans in the Middle East three millenia ago also practiced it. Does anybody else see a pattern here?
  • Liberian
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So you’re saying all “pagans” (by which I assume you mean “those not Christian, Jewish, nor Muslims”) of West Africa practice human sacrifice? Surely you’re not saying that every non-Christian/non-Jewish/non-Muslim member of the Ibo, Yoruba, Wolof, Fulani, and all other West African peoples all practice human sacrifice?

My point simply being that the word “pagan” simply means (in the way you seem to be using it) “non-Christian/Jewish/Muslim”. But to say that someone is “pagan” is to say nothing about their beliefs or practices. It just says “I’m not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim”.

For instance, I might reject Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, and yet (surprise) be a monotheist who rejects harming any creature, to the point of being a vegetarian. Surely, as such a “pagan”, would I sacrifice a human being? I think not. It would repulse me.

You know the most non-violent religious group in the world? A “pagan” (as you are using the term) group in India, the Jains. Their monks and nuns sweep the ground of bugs before the step, and wear filter-masks around the mouths to avoid breathing in gnats.
 
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Ahimsa:
So you’re saying all “pagans” (by which I assume you mean “those not Christian, Jewish, nor Muslims”) of West Africa practice human sacrifice? Surely you’re not saying that every non-Christian/non-Jewish/non-Muslim member of the Ibo, Yoruba, Wolof, Fulani, and all other West African peoples all practice human sacrifice?
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Ahimsa,

I would be extremely careful before I made any such widespread charge. My point is that human sacrifice goes on in West Africa to the present day. When I lived there in the 1960’s there was a time of the year at which the house boys would either go home early or else meet together and go home in a “convoy” so that they wouldn’t be attacked by the heartmen. That was among the Kpelle.

When I went back in the 1980’s, I heard that the Krahn sacrificed a virgin girl at some point in the year. I was in a different part of Liberia and didn’t stay long so I couldn’t confirm it.

And now in the year 2005 the problem of heartman attacks is widespread enough in Liberia that the president of the country has to make a public statement against it. I won’t speak for the Ibo, Yoruba, Wolof, or Fulani, but I do have more than one data point.

Again, I won’t say a word against the Jain. But I will be very uncomfortable about the neopagans in the United States until I see a comprehensive statement of their beliefs and practices with an explanation of why they will never get into human sacrifices. A “Pagan Pride” day doesn’t cut it.
  • Liberian
 
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Liberian:
Again, I won’t say a word against the Jain. But I will be very uncomfortable about the neopagans in the United States until I see a comprehensive statement of their beliefs and practices with an explanation of why they will never get into human sacrifices. A “Pagan Pride” day doesn’t cut it.
  • Liberian
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I won’t deny that there are religions in the world that make me uncomfortable as well. A good number of them support practices that I don’t understand and cannot condone, and some that I consider dangerous to society as a whole. Not all of them are pagan.

But I will offer this, the group that is usually referred to as neopagans, when they speak of Christianity, one of the things that they find “hard to swallow” is that the God of Christians required human sacrafice for atonement of sin. They find this very disturbing and barbaric. So, at least you know there are a good many neopagans who steer clear of any connection to such practices.

I don’t blame you for your discomfort, there are some wacky ideas and practices out there.

cheddar
 
I am frankly wondering why all the Catholics here seem to have their undies in a bunch over a little blurb about Paganism.

When Pope John Paul died, it was in the media for weeks and weeks, the front cover of Newsweek, Time, US News and World Report, etc.

I just don’t know why there is such insecurity. Man, if this ever makes it to the second page of the newspaper, I think many here are going to have a stroke.
 
The liberal media and the entertainment industry push one thing after the next to undermine the Christian faith. At one time, I dealt with over 100 Wiccan/pagan/New Age stores. I can tell you the hostility to the Christian faith is intense. So of course Chrisitans should not sit back without comment.
 
Tolerance is the word of satan himself. We tolerate far to much in our society. We tolerate killing, including abortion, drug use, repeat violent offenders, the gay agenda… Tolerance to me is allowing something to happen or turning a blind eye. When I hear or read that we don’t have enough tolerance, it really shakes me up!
 
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rayne100:
That was quite rude…
I did not know that Paganism was widely thought of as a " Cushy Religion"… In fact I believe that many pagans are ostracised as much as christians and catholics.
to each his own.
You may attack me for voicing my opinion, but I think that comment was offensive to the origianl poster and to anyone else who is here to discuss openly.
We have far too little tolerance already in this world without adding any more on top of it.
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**In 1931, Arch Bishop Fulton J. Sheen wrote the following essay,
A Plea for Intolerance:

“America, it is said, is suffering from intolerance—it is not. It is suffering from tolerance. Tolerance of right and wrong, truth and error, virtue and evil, Christ and chaos. Our country is not nearly so overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded.

“Tolerance is an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil . . . a forbearance that restrains us from showing anger or inflicting punishment. Tolerance applies only to persons . . . never to truth. Tolerance applies to the erring, intolerance to the error . . . Architects are as intolerant about sand as foundations for skyscrapers as doctors are intolerant about germs in the laboratory. Tolerance does not apply to truth or principles. About these things we must be intolerant, and for this kind of intolerance, so much needed to rouse us from sentimental gush, I make a plea. Intolerance of this kind is the foundation of all stability.”**
 
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Scanner:
I am frankly wondering why all the Catholics here seem to have their undies in a bunch over a little blurb about Paganism.

When Pope John Paul died, it was in the media for weeks and weeks, the front cover of Newsweek, Time, US News and World Report, etc.

I just don’t know why there is such insecurity. Man, if this ever makes it to the second page of the newspaper, I think many here are going to have a stroke.
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Scanner,

I don’t begrudge them the publicity, it’s the physical safety of my children and grandchildren that I am concerned about.

If I may note something else, one of the most recent cases of a society as a whole rejecting Christianity and reverting to paganism was Nazi Germany. This also gives one pause.
  • Liberian
 
When I hear or read that we don’t have enough tolerance, it really shakes me up!
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LOL!

Liberian,

I’ll profess ignorance on the connection of Paganism and Nazi Germany.
 
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