Pagans: Thoughts on the Death of Pan

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Isn’t there a rule that we are not supposed to denigrate the beliefs of others and their genuine faith?

Or for some reason does that not apply to pagans?

Regardless of what you think of their gods or practices, surely that photo is inappropriate.

As is the remark about running around and funny costumes.

You have your faith, and you feel confident in it. That’s wonderful. Why sink to making fun of the faith of another?
 
Isn’t there a rule that we are not supposed to denigrate the beliefs of others and their genuine faith?

Or for some reason does that not apply to pagans?

Regardless of what you think of their gods or practices, surely that photo is inappropriate.

As is the remark about running around and funny costumes.

You have your faith, and you feel confident in it. That’s wonderful. Why sink to making fun of the faith of another?
It’s not about making fun of them - it’s about issuing a wake-up call.

It’s about getting otherwise intelligent, rational people to stop their make-believe non-sense and to think about God in a realistic manner.
 
If people in funny costumes running about the country side is what you think pagan religions consist of you are woefully ignorant of world history, architecture, and religions in general.

Again, referring to the faith and religion of another as make believe nonsense is denigrating their faith, and against the rules of this forum.

When people issue similar “wake up calls” aimed at Catholics on forums (here and other forums) Catholics talk about how they are being misrepresented, and others are spreading lies about them and denigrating their beliefs, and being hateful.

You are doing the same.

But as you say…have at it!
 
If people in funny costumes running about the country side is what you think pagan religions consist of you are woefully ignorant of world history, architecture, and religions in general.

Again, referring to the faith and religion of another as make believe nonsense is denigrating their faith, and against the rules of this forum.

When people issue similar “wake up calls” aimed at Catholics on forums (here and other forums) Catholics talk about how they are being misrepresented, and others are spreading lies about them and denigrating their beliefs, and being hateful.

You are doing the same.

But as you say…have at it!
Yes, people misrepresent the Catholic faith in these forums all the time, and honestly, I love it when they do because it gives me a chance to open their eyes to the truth. In fact, I’m pretty sure that’s why Catholic Answers was founded…to explain and defend the truth of the Catholic faith!

Best wishes. :tiphat:
 
The photo above - should anyone be curious, is from a Kukeri festival in Bulgaria. Done at New years and during Lent (late winter/early spring). Similar traditions are held in other parts of the Balkans and parts of Greece.
 
Most of us out-grow dressing up for Halloween, but hey, if wearing funny costumes and running around the countryside is their thing, let them have it.
Sounds Catholic! I see priests and nuns wearing “funny costumes” pretty often.
 
Plutarch said it did.
Um, not quite: Plutarch has a character say that he heard another character tell a story in which an unknown spirit said it had happened. Plutarch’s views on religion were often quite sceptical (see his life of Numa, especially), and that tendency is quite apparent in On the Failing of Oracles, where the Pan story appears.

I would not jump to the conclusion that Plutarch believed it himself.
 
Um, not quite: Plutarch has a character say that he heard another character tell a story in which an unknown spirit said it had happened. Plutarch’s views on religion were often quite sceptical (see his life of Numa, especially), and that tendency is quite apparent in On the Failing of Oracles, where the Pan story appears.

I would not jump to the conclusion that Plutarch believed it himself.
Just to make sure I understand you, are you saying that Plutarch recorded (through his characters?) that some said Pan had died but that he himself may not have believed Pan was dead?

If so, wouldn’t this be a bit like Josephus recording that some believers claimed that Jesus died and rose even though Josephus himself was NOT a believer?

Either way, the historical value of the latter is that extra-biblical evidence supports the idea that Jesus was a real person and not a myth.

In the former, the historical value is that the evidence suggests that the gods of at least one pantheon are not gods at all…at least not by the standards of monotheism as we view it. They are not the ultimate creator of all that exists and they die.

Why are they worthy of worship? Just because they’re bigger than us? 🤷
 
Just to make sure I understand you, are you saying that Plutarch recorded (through his characters?) that some said Pan had died but that he himself may not have believed Pan was dead?

If so, wouldn’t this be a bit like Josephus recording that some believers claimed that Jesus died and rose even though Josephus himself was NOT a believer?
Not really: Josephus wrote history and recorded a belief, whereas Plutarch was writing a fictional dialogue, and told a story in that dialogue, a story in which layers of attribution (he said that this other guy said that he heard…) distance him as the author from the claims being made. In general, Plutarch seems to have believed in an overall God, but he was quite sceptical of the stories generally told about individual members of the pantheon.
In the former, the historical value is that the evidence suggests that the gods of at least one pantheon are not gods at all…at least not by the standards of monotheism as we view it. They are not the ultimate creator of all that exists and they die.
I think that Plutarch would agree with this, as would a few Greek philosophers.
Why are they worthy of worship? Just because they’re bigger than us? 🤷
That was pretty much the idea. People seem to have been told to worship the gods to avoid being struck down, much along the lines of the ‘fire insurance’ brand of Christian evangelism: become a Christian so that you don’t go to Hell.
 
People seem to have been told to worship the gods to avoid being struck down, much along the lines of the ‘fire insurance’ brand of Christian evangelism: become a Christian so that you don’t go to Hell.
Plutarch’s wager…😉
 
Okay, folks. You win.

It was wrong of me to question whether it makes sense to worship “gods” who, according to the few pagans I have interacted with here, did not create the universe and who may actually die (or not depending upon which group of “gods” you support).

I take back what I said. Pan may or may not be dead (depending on who you want to believe), and since belief in these ancient “gods” pre-dates Christianity by thousands of years, that should be sufficient to assure all of us that they are worthy of all the worship and devotion anyone wishes to give them.

Enjoy your romps in the woods. Seriously. Knock yourselves out. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

I’ll leave you with this bit of wisdom from my own religious tradition (which admittedly is not as ancient as yours, but which you might find it helpful despite its lack of credibility on that account):

Acts 16:22-31

22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

If you’d like to learn more about this resurrected man, just let me know.
 
1 Kings 18:25-40

25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it.

Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here to me.” They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the Lord, which had been torn down. 31 Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord had come, saying, “Your name shall be Israel.” 32 With the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs[a] of seed. 33 He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, “Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood.”

34 “Do it again,” he said, and they did it again.

“Do it a third time,” he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35 The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.

36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37 Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”

38 Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!”

40 Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.

May the Lord add His blessing to the reading of His Holy Word.
 
38 Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!”
Does quoting these verses mean you are going to do the same? I’d love to see this kind of miracle.
 
I am equating all pagan worship to the same foolishness that both Elijah and Paul recognized.

As for proof-texting, heh…well, first you call me out for mocking false gods, then when I give an example of one of God’s greatest prophets doing the same thing, you accuse me of proof-texting.

Gee, I’m starting to think you don’t like me very much, Jharek. 😛
 
Those who worship false “gods” are not serving the Lord.
Elijah was mocking Baal under a particular set of circumstances in a particular era, that does not mean his approach was one that would be profitable or recommended in all times or places.
Fair enough, but I have PROVEN by my example that mocking is not universally unacceptable - as you seem to suggest.
Do you suggest for example when talking to an individual like the Dalai Lama who is a ‘pagan’ that such an approach would be wise or profitable?
Honestly, that’s hard to say. We’ve been walking on egg shells around some of these folks for a long time with little to show for our kinder, gentler ecumenism. We tone down our rhetoric, and they take that as a sign that their false religion is equal to ours.

The Dalai Lama is a sinner in need of a savior just like everyone else. Does anyone have the guts to tell him that he will die in his sin if he does not repent? 🤷
 
Are you really deluded enough to think that this kind of condescension is going to convert anyone to the Catholic faith? All it does is make Catholics look pathetic.
 
Are you really deluded enough to think that this kind of condescension is going to convert anyone to the Catholic faith?
No. But I’m not really deluded enough to think that not speaking plainly will be more effective, either.
All it does is make Catholics look pathetic.
How so? Catholics are asked hard questions by pagans and atheists every day. And we have solid answers to those questions.

Maybe that’s not the word you meant to use.
 
That is one possibility, Jharek.

Another pagan might by *challenged *to defend his or her faith and, in the course of doing the research, come to the conclusion that there really isn’t much supporting their beliefs. Boo-yah!

A third may decide to go on the offensive and set out to prove that Christianity or Catholicism specifically are “wrong”. This is a path that has brought many evangelical Christians (Scott Hahn and Steve Ray among them, for example) into the Catholic Church.

So, I don’t think that it’s a foregone conclusion that offending someone by pointing out some of the absurdities of their religion will necessarily result in their complete rejection of my conclusion.
Which we should offer with charity and reason and not in a triumphalist and mocking manner.
Fair enough. Catholic answers should be offered charitably without triumphalism.

But *questions *about false religions can be asked in any number of tones with varying results depending upon the hearer. I can and would vary my approach based upon the person to whom I was speaking and my own mood.

THIS thread was intentionally “in your face”, because some inconsistencies simply need to be pointed out.

That’s my $.02, anyway. Your mileage may vary. 👍
 
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