Paid in hours not money to renew society

[Della]

An idea came to me last night that I can’t believe is original with me (I’m no genius) but which I’ve never heard proposed or discussed.

I was thinking, instead of paying people in money, which means you can only buy what you can afford, be it luxury items or necessities like health care, why not pay people “hours” instead of money for the work they do? This would include homemakers and volunteers not just those who go to an office, clinic, factory, store, etc.

It’d be a form of credit. Say you work at home as a homemaker or parent bringing up children. All the time you put in doing that would go to your credit. The same with any and all work. And when you can no longer work, you would be taken care of. Everything would be free only in the sense that no money would pass hands, only work hour credits.

Is this idea completely insane or would it actually work?

 

[CatholicGeek1]

An idea came to me last night that I can’t believe is original with me (I’m no genius) but which I’ve never heard proposed or discussed.

I was thinking, instead of paying people in money, which means you can only buy what you can afford, be it luxury items or necessities like health care, why not pay people “hours” instead of money for the work they do? This would include homemakers and volunteers not just those who go to an office, clinic, factory, store, etc.

It’d be a form of credit. Say you work at home as a homemaker or parent bringing up children. All the time you put in doing that would go to your credit. The same with any and all work. And when you can no longer work, you would be taken care of. Everything would be free only in the sense that no money would pass hands, only work hour credits.

Is this idea completely insane or would it actually work?

It is no different than money. You are just replacing the physical money with virtual credits. In its essence it is exactly the same system that we have today, and you would still only be able to get the things that you can afford based on how many work hours they cost instead of how many dollars, rubles, etc they cost.

 

[Robert_Sock]

It is no different than money. You are just replacing the physical money with virtual credits. In its essence it is exactly the same system that we have today, and you would still only be able to get the things that you can afford based on how many work hours they cost instead of how many dollars, rubles, etc they cost.

But with the ‘hours’ system everybody would be about equal in ‘pay.’

 

[Della]

But with the ‘hours’ system everybody would be about equal in ‘pay.’

Yes. Pretty much. People would work at certain things because they loved doing those things and they are a benefit to everyone else. So whether you repair motorcycles for a living or you are a doctor, there’s no pressure to earn money to get things. Even luxury items, such as jewelry (as a woman I love jewelry) would be made to order because those who make jewelry love doing it.

 

[FrancisBenedict]

Hi Della,

Its a great idea!

It’s is already in use in many places, see ‘Time banks’.

Maybe start one of your own in your neighbourhood!

 

[Della]

Hi Della,

Its a great idea!

It’s is already in use in many places, see ‘Time banks’.

Maybe start one of your own in your neighbourhood!

Thanks! I’ll look it up.

 

[InigoMontoya]

Yes. Pretty much. People would work at certain things because they loved doing those things and they are a benefit to everyone else. So whether you repair motorcycles for a living or you are a doctor, there’s no pressure to earn money to get things. Even luxury items, such as jewelry (as a woman I love jewelry) would be made to order because those who make jewelry love doing it.

Without a market to dictate and hourly valuation variations, there wouldn’t be sufficient providers for the takers.

I want to monitor the waves along the beach, and be an advanced watchmen for marine animals in duress along the coastline. Preferably in the shade with some alcohol… I’ve put in 12 hours today.

Time to head home. Oh, my electric is out, can some lineman climb out of bed at 3am, risk his life at a job that’s so dangerous he’s exempt from life insurance… just because…

Or even better, overhearing this conversation:

Person A: “I’m simply astonished! You’ve banked more hours than I could have envisioned at your age! How’d you do it? You’re only a year older, almost able to retire from your hours bank, while I still haven’t gained one excess hour!”

Person B: “Simple, I dropped out of high school and have worked at a video store. Pretty easy most days, as we’re not that busy. Spent most of it just watching movies. It’s pretty pathetic that you haven’t banked any hours, how do you plan on ever retiring? What have you been doing the past ten years?”

Person A:“Sigh, I spent all of my twenties in medical school and than specializing. Haven’t had the chance to work other than a handful of internships and residency, as my studies have kept me too busy. I’m even in the whole, about ten years of hours for my education. Looks like I’ll never be able to retire. Yet alone, retire young like you.”

 

[Lord_Keynes]

It’s is already in use in many places, see ‘Time banks’.

Here’s a good introductory video, for you Youtub’aholics like me:

Time Banks

LOL! I want to start a bank in this type of system, now.

 

[latin_rite]

In Australia they have a thing called hours in lieu or hours lieu. My brother and i worked at a wheat research centre in Australia that used this system.
Instead of being paid in over time we would be given paid time off. My brother who worked there full time for a number of years was in two minds about it. He said it was no good if you wanted to earn a little bit extra when some unexpected bill came up. But thanks to the fact they had a harvest season he could rack up some serious over time hours.
So it was nothing for him to get over a month paid leave (on top of normal holidays).
He could take the time off when ever he wanted after giving notice of course.
He was once asked to take some time off as at one point he had over 6 months of time in lieu up his sleeve. The down side for the employers is that while this person is “taking their hours” They have to hire a replacement or have someone cover their position.
I understand that not many business have those long hours. But it is something that can build up quite quickly and finding a replacement is something that needs to be taken into consideration.

 

[InigoMontoya]

In Australia they have a thing called hours in lieu or hours lieu. My brother and i worked at a wheat research centre in Australia that used this system.
Instead of being paid in over time we would be given paid time off. My brother who worked there full time for a number of years was in two minds about it.

There was recently an attempt to implement legislation in the states that would allow a similar system to be introduced. It failed, which I’m thankful of, as it fell along political lines.

Currently only government employees in the states are legally able to have such systems in place. Having worked in government as well as the private sector, I’ve seen it’s slight benefits albeit also it’s outright abuse. I’d find it to be a horrible system to implement as American labor laws are quite weak for a developed country and that would create a ripe opportunity for wholesale worker abuse - IMO.

 

[Gia_B]

It’d be a form of credit. Say you work at home as a homemaker or parent bringing up children. All the time you put in doing that would go to your credit.

Where would these credits come from? When you work at a job, let’s say stocking produce at the grocery store, there is an exchange of benefits. You get money and your employer gets your labor in moving around all that fruit. If, however you were a homemaker and you were to spend some of your time cleaning your own house, you are the only one who receives a benefit from that and there is no one else in the equation to give you your fanciful time-credits. Because nobody owes you anything, the time-credits are coming out of nowhere. Setting aside the issue of exactly how the tine-credits would get into your time-bank account. the continual appearance of time-credits from nowhere would cause inflation. There will be more time-credits to go around, but because the actual value of the economy has not increased, each time-credit will be worth less.

 

[1ke]

Where would these credits come from? When you work at a job, let’s say stocking produce at the grocery store, there is an exchange of benefits. You get money and your employer gets your labor in moving around all that fruit. If, however you were a homemaker and you were to spend some of your time cleaning your own house, you are the only one who receives a benefit from that and there is no one else in the equation to give you your fanciful time-credits. Because nobody owes you anything, the time-credits are coming out of nowhere. Setting aside the issue of exactly how the tine-credits would get into your time-bank account. the continual appearance of time-credits from nowhere would cause inflation. There will be more time-credits to go around, but because the actual value of the economy has not increased, each time-credit will be worth less.

And we would have lots of homemakers and not so many garbage collectors.

 

[Della]

Where would these credits come from? When you work at a job, let’s say stocking produce at the grocery store, there is an exchange of benefits. You get money and your employer gets your labor in moving around all that fruit. If, however you were a homemaker and you were to spend some of your time cleaning your own house, you are the only one who receives a benefit from that and there is no one else in the equation to give you your fanciful time-credits. Because nobody owes you anything, the time-credits are coming out of nowhere. Setting aside the issue of exactly how the tine-credits would get into your time-bank account. the continual appearance of time-credits from nowhere would cause inflation. There will be more time-credits to go around, but because the actual value of the economy has not increased, each time-credit will be worth less.

I wouldn’t say that only the homemaker benefits from keeping a clean house. As a homemaker I see my role as benefiting everyone since my daily work keeps my dh happy, and he works with others outside our home. It’s like saying that contemplatives only benefit themselves, to use an example.

The idea is that everyone contributes in whatever way s/he is able to. The ones who scrubs floors and cleans toilets are worth as much as doctors and teachers. We tend to think in certain modes of worth based on a money-based society. But if everyone were brought up seeing the worth in all work, all creativity, all efforts, instead of how much money those things bring in, I think we would have a better world.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

I wouldn’t say that only the homemaker benefits from keeping a clean house. As a homemaker I see my role as benefiting everyone since my daily work keeps my dh happy, and he works with others outside our home. It’s like saying that contemplatives only benefit themselves, to use an example.

The idea is that everyone contributes in whatever way s/he is able to. The ones who scrubs floors and cleans toilets are worth as much as doctors and teachers. We tend to think in certain modes of worth based on a money-based society. But if everyone were brought up seeing the worth in all work, all creativity, all efforts, instead of how much money those things bring in, I think we would have a better world.

Here is the problem, they are worth equal as people. However, there work is not worth the same. It takes far more skill and training to be a doctor than it does to be a janitor. Therefore, the doctor receives more pay. All people are equal, but their work simply is not.

 

[Della]

Here is the problem, they are worth equal as people. However, there work is not worth the same. It takes far more skill and training to be a doctor than it does to be a janitor. Therefore, the doctor receives more pay. All people are equal, but their work simply is not.

True, but not everyone has the capacity to be a doctor or a teacher. No one should live in poverty because the only thing they can do is maintenance. I’m not saying anyone is at fault in this and I’m not sure how to remedy the dilemma of such low pay for hard work. I just see it as a great inequity of worth. I defintely don’t agree with socialism or communism as answers. They degrade men’s souls and spirits. It just seems unfair that merely because a person isn’t bright enough to earn a living from work that requires more learning/apttitude that they must live in poverty or without the things others can have. It’s a problem I wish I could solve.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

True, but not everyone has the capacity to be a doctor or a teacher. No one should live in poverty because the only thing they can do is maintenance. I’m not saying anyone is at fault in this and I’m not sure how to remedy the dilemma of such low pay for hard work. I just see it as a great inequity of worth. I defintely don’t agree with socialism or communism as answers. They degrade men’s souls and spirits. It just seems unfair that merely because a person isn’t bright enough to earn a living from work that requires more learning/apttitude that they must live in poverty or without the things others can have. It’s a problem I wish I could solve.

I think that the current minimum wage is a joke, there should be a minimum wage that is high enough to support living. That being said, yes it is unfair that some people are capable of higher-skilled jobs that pay more many and some people are not. However, life is not fair. You make the best of what God has given you.

 

[Della]

I think that the current minimum wage is a joke, there should be a minimum wage that is high enough to support living. That being said, yes it is unfair that some people are capable of higher-skilled jobs that pay more many and some people are not. However, life is not fair. You make the best of what God has given you.

Yes, we have to make the best of what we have, I agree. And yes, life is unfair, but it shouldn’t be. If society were properly ordered we wouldn’t have such problems. Unfortunately, I doubt society ever will be properly ordered until Christ returns. Still, there’s no harm in trying to improve the lot of the poor.

 

[Gia_B]

I wouldn’t say that only the homemaker benefits from keeping a clean house. As a homemaker I see my role as benefiting everyone since my daily work keeps my dh happy, and he works with others outside our home.

It’s still a closed system. You exchange your labor for the family’s happiness. The time-credits still aren’t coming from anywhere. There is not creation of value for the economy and you cannot just make money magically appear.

The idea is that everyone contributes in whatever way s/he is able to. The ones who scrubs floors and cleans toilets are worth as much as doctors and teachers. We tend to think in certain modes of worth based on a money-based society. But if everyone were brought up seeing the worth in all work, all creativity, all efforts, instead of how much money those things bring in, I think we would have a better world.

CatholicGeek1 and InigoMontoya have pointed out that not all labor has the same value or requires the same level of skill. Heart surgeons get paid more than some guy with long hair and an acoustic guitar because their skills are more specialized and require more formal training and the product of their work is more beneficial.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Yes, we have to make the best of what we have, I agree. And yes, life is unfair, but it shouldn’t be. If society were properly ordered we wouldn’t have such problems. Unfortunately, I doubt society ever will be properly ordered until Christ returns. Still, there’s no harm in trying to improve the lot of the poor.

No and we certainly should try to improve things for the poor. That being said however, we should not hold it against those that have higher skills that they make more money.

 

[Della]

It’s still a closed system. You exchange your labor for the family’s happiness. The time-credits still aren’t coming from anywhere. There is not creation of value for the economy and you cannot just make money magically appear.

But it’s not money, that’s the point. No one would be earning money.

CatholicGeek1 and InigoMontoya have pointed out that not all labor has the same value or requires the same level of skill. Heart surgeons get paid more than some guy with long hair and an acoustic guitar because their skills are more specialized and require more formal training and the product of their work is more beneficial.

I addressed this in my last posts, which I don’t think you’ve seen.