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Maximilian75
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See the GIRM passage i cited shortly after that.
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medwigel
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I am challenging this doctrine of “concomitance”. It is not Biblical; all examples or demonstrations of communion in the Bible tells you the individual meaning of the bread and the wine. It never said that now one represents both. That is a manmade doctrine that has no basis in the Bible and therefore was not Christ’s intent when HE, not man, established communion.
I don’t understand your last question. Please elaborate.
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idifacs_john
Guest
it is called the priest making up something and doing what he wants and setting a bad example for his parish and giving them the impression that they can in turn take the host when they want and dip it in the challice if they so choose to. Do as I say, not as I do , does not apply in a situation like this , clergy and religious are not given any special powers or permission to do as they like with the eucharist and blood and then declare to the lay people that they are not permitted. they may think that is the case, but they are wrong.
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medwigel
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A good example of what Paul is conveying is:
Lets say you are taking a test and the instructions are, in order to get graded you must put your name AND date of birth on your paper. If forget to put your name OR your date of birth on your paper, then the whole test is invalid and you fail the whole test. You need to do both in order for the test to qualify.
As such, you need to take the bread and the wine in order for it to constitute communion.
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medwigel
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If Jesus praying over bread and breaking it constitutes as communion then the first communion would rightfully be when He feed the thousands with 5 loaves and 2 fishes.
Mark 6:41 “And when He had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, He looked up to heaven, blessed and broke the loaves, and give to His disciples to set before them; and the two fish He divided among them all.”
So here also Jesus prayed over the bread and broke it, so based on what you’re saying, this would be communion as well, right?
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medwigel
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My argument is not over the body and blood of Christ. On that we can agree that the bread and wine are transformed. So please don’t mislead people on what I have said or believe.
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Cathoholic
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medwigel . . . .
If you are talking about in a Catholic Mass (with a Catholic Priest) and you assert the bread is transformed into the body AND blood of our Lord we have agreement there.
If you are talking about in a Bible-Christian prayer service (with no Catholic Priest) and you assert the bread is transformed into the body AND blood of our Lord we have a major disagreement. (In this case you will stll have mere bread and wine)
What are you alluding to?
Maybe we can “agree” here. Depends upon what you are talking about.
If you are talking about in a Catholic Mass (with a Catholic Priest) and you assert the bread is transformed into the body AND blood of our Lord we have agreement there.
If you are talking about in a Bible-Christian prayer service (with no Catholic Priest) and you assert the bread is transformed into the body AND blood of our Lord we have a major disagreement. (In this case you will stll have mere bread and wine)
What are you alluding to?
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medwigel
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I am a Bible believing Christian. So while you may want to invalidate my belief, I dare say I have tons of Bible scripture to invalidate your understanding of communion. Catholics do not corner the market on Christianity!
As I’ve said before, Catholic doctrine, teachings and practices have been wrong!
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medwigel
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I did express my self in a complete thought, you just choose to ignore the rest. So, just in case you missed it, here it is:
I keep getting the response that the Body and Blood are in the bread but I say “NO”- the bread is the bread and it represents one thing and the wine is the wine and it represents something else- you can’t combine/mix the two because that is not how it was demonstrated and taught to us in the Bible. Jesus gave the disciples bread AND wine, and Paul instructs the early church in how the take the bread AND wine.
There is NO WHERE in the Bible where someone prays over both and just offers one.
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Cathoholic
Guest
medwigel (arguing from explicit silence) . . . .
But it IS just matter-of-factly assumed someone may be partaking of only one species.
I think your real problem is with St. Paul. Now you are not going to put it that way, but this is where you are centering your attacks . . . Against God-breathed inspired Scripture texts given by the Holy Spirit and St. Paul.
Well medwigel. There is NO WHERE in the Bible where someone prays over both and states you MUST offer both species to the people.
But it IS just matter-of-factly assumed someone may be partaking of only one species.
Your arguments are not going to be able to deal with the force of this Bible verse medwigel. Your own interpreting away the text not withstanding.
I think your real problem is with St. Paul. Now you are not going to put it that way, but this is where you are centering your attacks . . . Against God-breathed inspired Scripture texts given by the Holy Spirit and St. Paul.
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Cathoholic
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Cathoholic to medwigel . . .
Why not just say it?
I have no problem reaffirming I WORSHIP Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. In either form by the way.
How about you?
This will give me an idea of what you are attempting to convey as you have been so evasive about what you believe, but very vocal on criticizing the Catholic Church although you have offered NO Bible verses to support anything critical. None. Just your traditions and opinions.
medwigel’s reply?
Medwigel. We are over a hundred posts into this thread and you have never said if you give WORSHIP to whatever you are doing with bread and wine wherever you are fellowshipping.
Why not just say it?
I have no problem reaffirming I WORSHIP Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. In either form by the way.
How about you?
This will give me an idea of what you are attempting to convey as you have been so evasive about what you believe, but very vocal on criticizing the Catholic Church although you have offered NO Bible verses to support anything critical. None. Just your traditions and opinions.
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medwigel
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No, I have no issue with Paul. I’m just using my knowledge of English and grammar when reading the text.
You are trying to spin it to fit in with a doctrine that the Bible does not support.
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medwigel
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I’ve been very clear on my stance on communion, you just want to keep adding more layers to your questions.
So, to be clear I believe in communion and I hold to Christ’s instructions to do it in remembrance of Him and His sacrifice and hold faithful to the manner in which He ordained.
Who do I worship? I worship the God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and part of my worship is following instructions as set forth by the Bible and not traditions contrived by man.
I’ve been very clear on my stance on communion, you just want to keep adding more layers to your questions.So, to be clear I believe in communion and I hold to Christ’s instructions to do it in remembrance of Him and His sacrifice and hold faithful to the manner in which He ordained.
Who do I worship? I worship the God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and part of my worship is following instructions as set forth by the Bible and not traditions contrived by man.
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medwigel
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Are these the actions that would have God say, “well done my good and faithful servant”?
- The Catholic church for centuries has branded Mary Magdalene as a prostitute, yet there is no where in the Bible where it ever says that.
- Church polices were put in place that transferred pedophile priests from one parish to another. It would be one thing if this only happened in one state but it happened in over 10 countries; that’s a coordinated effort on the part of the church.
- In the 1940s and 1950s young unwed mothers who were sent to convents had their babies taken away and sold without their permission or under corrosion.
Are these the actions that would have God say, “well done my good and faithful servant”?
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medwigel
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Well, therein is the issue, you are assuming wrongly.
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Titivillus
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You are a heretic. Got it.Titivillus:
I am challenging this doctrine of “concomitance”.
It’s not a trick – Though I confess, I am do not know what is the matter used for your services?
Is it separate hosts or wafers? Does this lead to many presences of many Christs?
Or is it a single piece of bread which is then fractioned and distributed to communicants? Do some Communicants receive more or less of Christ according to the size of the fraction received?
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Titivillus
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Cathoholic
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medwigel . . .
So what? So you "believe in “communion”.
That is not what I asked you.
Everybody thinks they "believe in “communion”.
I asked if you WORSHIP the consecrated host (or for that matter, the consecrated wine).
I do.
I am still waiting for your “clear” answer.
So then why not “be clear”?
So what? So you "believe in “communion”.
That is not what I asked you.
Everybody thinks they "believe in “communion”.
I asked if you WORSHIP the consecrated host (or for that matter, the consecrated wine).
I do.
I am still waiting for your “clear” answer.
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Maximilian75
Guest
Don’t leave Jesus because of Judas.
Peter denied Jesus three times and still was the first Vicar of Christ and leader of the Universal Church
Peter denied Jesus three times and still was the first Vicar of Christ and leader of the Universal Church
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