Panhandlers and indifference

[Lenten_ashes]

I’ve made a general rule to not give anything. Maybe offer food if I happen to have some in the car. But when I have done that they turn their back on me, reaffirming what I already believe which is they only care about getting high.

I know I am not suppose to think like that but I cant help it. Economy is still not great and I hate supporting bad habits.

But there was one time i saw some panhandlers out side walmart, And I walk in doing my darndest to avoid them. And i go to the bathroom and REALLY felt the Spirit of God checking me for judging them. So i get my stuff and walk out and I see those same guys now inside at the McDonalds by the entrance. And I start talking to them and one of them literally starts tearing up. He said he has this horrible heroin addiction and his wife kicked him out because he is destroying the household thanks to that. He said I’m starving. so I get him something to eat and wish him well. I think i gave him a card for a Christian ministry that helps homeless. But that always stands out to me that there are legit cases out there and if you heard the stories it would melt your heart. I just wish there was a way to determine who are the ones who really need and want the help.

 

[Tim_D]

BTW, our Lord specifically said “Give to anyone who asks, and if anyone wants to borrow, do not turn away.”

Again I will say that you do not comprehend the subtleties of hyperbole.

Jesus also said to “pluck” out your eye if it causes you to sin but I doubt that any sensible Christian would interpret that as a literal command. In your case, I do not see how you can employ literalism in one aspect but not another.

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

Again I will say that you do not comprehend the subtleties of hyperbole.
Jesus also said to “pluck” out your eye if it causes you to sin but I doubt that any sensible Christian would interpret that as a literal command. In your case, I do not see how you can employ literalism in one aspect but not another.

**Actually, Tim, I don’t think that either of these admonitions are “hyperbole.” But I am too weak to tear out my eye and too afraid to cut off my hand, so I compensate for those failings by always giving whenever asked. In fact, I’ll go out of my way if I notice an opportunity to make up for my weakness and fear.
The last time that I remember was in Milwaukee while driving my friends around. I noticed a man holding the usual cardboard sign standing on a cross street.
I couldn’t stop next to him, so I pulled over at about half a block down the road, apologized to my friends, and ran back to where he was.
To me that is a sacred opportunity which, btw, doesn’t present itself often where I reside in Pewaukee. **
(I suppose that means that I am not sensible, a failing to which I will readily admit.)

 

[Tim_D]

I don’t think that either of these admonitions are “hyperbole.” But I am too weak to tear out my eye and too afraid to cut off my hand, so I compensate for those failings by always giving whenever asked.

Then I dare say with all charity that you lack a fundamental understanding of the meaning of scripture. To not understand the various literary styles that the ancient inspired authors employed to relay or convey a particular teaching is to entirely miss the point. Do you also not have a savings, investment or retirement account out of fear of storing up riches? Give if it makes you feel good but to give to beggars and not care what they do with the money, even if they use it to harm themselves through drug or alcohol abuse, is not charity and shows a remarkable indifference to their well being. Prudence is, after all, a virtue.

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

Then I dare say with all charity that you lack a fundamental understanding of the meaning of scripture. To not understand the various literary styles that the ancient inspired authors employed to relay or convey a particular teaching is to entirely miss the point. Do you also not have a savings, investment or retirement account out of fear of storing up riches? Give if it makes you feel good but to give to beggars and not care what they do with the money, even if they use it to harm themselves through drug or alcohol abuse, is not charity and shows a remarkable indifference to their well being. Prudence is, after all, a virtue.

**Thank you, Tim, for your kind reply. I am sure that you are right when you say that i don’t know the meaning of Scripture or “the various literary styles” and that i entirely “miss the point.”
I should have paid more attention to the book that once was in my Church’s library: THE DIFFICULT SAYINGS OF JESUS.
That author, an Episcopal Priest, had it all figured out as to how avoid having to comply with the direct meaning of our Teacher’s words.

Yes, I should have listened instead of dismissing that book as “disgusting.” Too late now, I gave away my retirement account long ago.
But I’m not afraid because I foolishly believe that if I follow the literal meaning of Rabbi Yeshu’s Teachings that my Creator will provide for me.
(I know, absolutely dumb.)

But this is what mystifies me: when i give out a twenty i often get a verbal blessing from the recipient, and it feels like a real blessing.
But, of course, it can’t be real because i have done the wrong thing by giving them money, and they aren’t priests to boot.**

**At that time Jesus exclaimed, “I bless you, Father, Lord of Heaven and of earth, for hiding these things from the learned and the clever and revealing them to mere children.
Yes, Father, for that is what it pleased You to do.”

**

 

[Tim_D]

But this is what mystifies me: when i give out a twenty i often get a verbal blessing from the recipient, and it feels like a real blessing.

Feelings have nothing to do with anything. If they used your money for drug or alcohol abuse then you did nothing to help them and their “blessing” is meaningless.

Being a Christian means more than just feeling good about yourself.

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

Feelings have nothing to do with anything. If they used your money for drug or alcohol abuse then you did nothing to help them and their “blessing” is meaningless.
Being a Christian means more than just feeling good about yourself.

I never said that I felt good about myself, and I admitted that the blessing was not valid, so I do not understand what your post is about. Sorry.

 

[Rosebud77]

I invite each and every one of us in this thread, posting or reading, to look at our intentions, and make sure we’re not just trying to excuse our own selfishness, or to turn a blind eye to the needy.

No need to reply publicly. Let’s be honest at least within ourselves.

I find this rather judgemental and intimidatory frankly… we are accountbale to Jesus not to each other and for our left hand not to know what our right hand is doing.

 

[mikekle]

Feelings have nothing to do with anything. If they used your money for drug or alcohol abuse then you did nothing to help them and their “blessing” is meaningless.

Being a Christian means more than just feeling good about yourself.

In the end though, that is judging every person who asks for money, surely not every single one of them will use it on drugs or alcohol. That kind of mindset is implying the worst possible outcome.

I was a heroin addict up until about a year ago and while it is true the fix is their main priority, when you have not eaten anything in days, food WILL become the priority at some point.Dope does take away hunger, but there is a limit a few days is what I found.

Heroin addicts cannot be forced into quitting, they have to do it when they each reach a certain point, everyone is different, giving gift cards or vouchers is no guarantee they cannot turn it into cash either, Ive seen couple people trade or sell gift cards for cash in our stores. Pretty much anything of value CAN be turned into cash if they are resourceful and manipulative enough.

 

[Bonnie]

Pretty much anything of value CAN be turned into cash if they are resourceful and manipulative enough.

My husband bought a sandwich for beggar - he said a seemingly sincere thank-you. But when my husband looked back, the man was trying to sell the sandwich to someone else.

The Biblical accounts about beggars are not talking about people who are begging to feed their drug or alcohol addictions, but about people who don’t have any way to feed their families or themselves, usually through no fault of their own. The world has changed a lot in 2000 years.

If we refuse to discern (a more PC word for judge), we will be enabling people who have addictions. I’d rather my money went to help children - which I ensure by giving to established charities.

 

[TARRAT]

When interpreting the bible it is wise to get direction from the Church. It is hard to pick and choose a passage and get the whole meaning out of it ourselves. And so it is with the entire bible.

Let me give an example: Jesus said if somebody slaps you you are to offer the other cheek, however when Jesus was slapped during His passion He did not offer the other cheek. He rightfully confront the attacker. Jesus did not go against His teaching which we may say was hyperbole. Prudence is a virtue.:twocents:

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

When interpreting the bible it is wise to get direction from the Church. It is hard to pick and choose a passage and get the whole meaning out of it ourselves. And so it is with the entire bible.

Let me give an example: Jesus said if somebody slaps you you are to offer the other cheek, however when Jesus was slapped during His passion He did not offer the other cheek. He rightfully confront the attacker. Jesus did not go against His teaching which we may say was hyperbole. Prudence is a virtue.:twocents:

**I’ve seen this allegation before, and I must respectfully disagree. Our Lord had at His fingertips the power to instantly kill or disable his assailants, but He refused to do so.
He submitted to a brutal beating and death by torture instead.
If that’s not “turning the other cheek,” then I really don’t know what it would be called.

It’s common in the Episcopal Church for the Priest to say, “Jesus, our passover, is sacrificed for us.”
But I have never liked the idea that our Lord’s death by torture was some kind of macabre sacrifice to an angry god to persuade that god to forgive mankind’s sins.
In the first place Jewish animal sacrifice to YHWH never involved the torture of the animal, and secondly, Rabbi Yeshu repeatedly demonstrated that He had the power to forgive sins Himself.
Therefore His death by torture for the forgiveness of sins would be superfluous.

I see our Lord’s submission to a death by torture as setting an example to His followers as to just much they should be prepared to endure in following YHWH’s commandments.
And that is why I try to follow Rabbi Yeshu’s admonitions to the letter without resorting to any “hyperbole.”**

 

[TARRAT]

**I’ve seen this allegation before, and I must respectfully disagree. Our Lord had at His fingertips the power to instantly kill or disable his assailants, but He refused to do so.
He submitted to a brutal beating and death by torture instead.
If that’s not “turning the other cheek,” then I really don’t know what it would be called.

It’s common in the Episcopal Church for the Priest to say, “Jesus, our passover, is sacrificed for us.”
But I have never liked the idea that our Lord’s death by torture was some kind of macabre sacrifice to an angry god to persuade that god to forgive mankind’s sins.
In the first place Jewish animal sacrifice to YHWH never involved the torture of the animal, and secondly, Rabbi Yeshu repeatedly demonstrated that He had the power to forgive sins Himself.
Therefore His death by torture for the forgiveness of sins would be superfluous.

I see our Lord’s submission to a death by torture as setting an example to His followers as to just much they should be prepared to endure in following YHWH’s commandments.
And that is why I try to follow Rabbi Yeshu’s admonitions to the letter without resorting to any “hyperbole.”**

You miss the whole point. Did Jesus turn and offer the other cheek?

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

You miss the whole point. Did Jesus turn and offer the other cheek?

**He then sent a captain of fifty soldiers with his contingent to Elijah, whom they found sitting on top of a hill; the captain went up to him and said, “Man of God, the king says, ‘Come down…’”
Elijah answered the captain, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from Heaven and destroy both you and your fifty men.” And fire came down from Heaven and destroyed him and his fifty men. **

**Take a good look at the color pictures of the Shroud of Turin and you will notice the abuse and injuries that our Holy Teacher suffered without ever once calling down fire from Heaven on those who were mistreating Him.
I am sorry if you disagree, but, to me at least, that forbearance is the ultimate example of how to turn the other cheek. **

 

[TARRAT]

**He then sent a captain of fifty soldiers with his contingent to Elijah, whom they found sitting on top of a hill; the captain went up to him and said, “Man of God, the king says, ‘Come down…’”
Elijah answered the captain, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from Heaven and destroy both you and your fifty men.” And fire came down from Heaven and destroyed him and his fifty men. **

**Take a good look at the color pictures of the Shroud of Turin and you will notice the abuse and injuries that our Holy Teacher suffered without ever once calling down fire from Heaven on those who were mistreating Him.
I am sorry if you disagree, but, to me at least, that forbearance is the ultimate example of how to turn the other cheek. **

Again you miss the point. You say that the sacred scriptures should be taken literally. Since Jesus didn’t take it literally He didn’t offer the other cheek. He did not lash out in anger at his assailant. That is what Jesus did. This is, what can safely be assumed, what He meant about turning the other cheek. Otherwise he would have offered the other cheek.

Your argument is a red herring.

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

Again you miss the point. You say that the sacred scriptures should be taken literally. Since Jesus didn’t take it literally He didn’t offer the other cheek. He did not lash out in anger at his assailant. That is what Jesus did. This is, what can safely be assumed, what He meant about turning the other cheek. Otherwise he would have offered the other cheek.
Your argument is a red herring.

**Neither of us was actually there. Just because Jesus questioned His assailant’s motives doesn’t mean that He did not literally turn His other cheek to that man.
At any rate the Man was imprisoned, so “the other cheek” was available to His assailants. He could have instantly changed that situation, but did not.

If you do not to take Scripture literally, that’s your choice. Mine is to try to believe every word that our Teacher spoke.**

 

[Bonnie]

If you do not to take Scripture literally, that’s your choice. Mine is to try to believe every word that our Teacher spoke.

Husband found a little book this morning called The Words in Red: The Teachings of Christ Compiled by Michael Q. Pink & published by Hidden Manna, Inc.

There is no context, just the words of Jesus, strung together in sub-headings such as “Who Jesus Is,” “The Kingdom of God,” and “Concerning God’s Will.” I can’t think of a better way than this to put one’s own spin on Jesus’ words.

Taking the Bible literally reminds me of the joke about the man who opened the Bible at random to find spiritual guidance. The first verse he saw was: “And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he (Judas) departed; and he went and hanged himself.”

He didn’t think much of that “advice” so opened the Bible at random again. This time the verse was, “Go and do likewise.”

 

[Micosil]

Husband found a little book this morning called The Words in Red: The Teachings of Christ Compiled by Michael Q. Pink & published by Hidden Manna, Inc.

There is no context, just the words of Jesus, strung together in sub-headings such as “Who Jesus Is,” “The Kingdom of God,” and “Concerning God’s Will.” I can’t think of a better way than this to put one’s own spin on Jesus’ words.

Taking the Bible literally reminds me of the joke about the man who opened the Bible at random to find spiritual guidance. The first verse he saw was: “And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he (Judas) departed; and he went and hanged himself.”

He didn’t think much of that “advice” so opened the Bible at random again. This time the verse was, “Go and do likewise.”

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

Husband found a little book this morning called The Words in Red: The Teachings of Christ Compiled by Michael Q. Pink & published by Hidden Manna, Inc.

There is no context, just the words of Jesus, strung together in sub-headings such as “Who Jesus Is,” “The Kingdom of God,” and “Concerning God’s Will.” I can’t think of a better way than this to put one’s own spin on Jesus’ words.

Taking the Bible literally reminds me of the joke about the man who opened the Bible at random to find spiritual guidance. The first verse he saw was: “And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he (Judas) departed; and he went and hanged himself.”

He didn’t think much of that “advice” so opened the Bible at random again. This time the verse was, “Go and do likewise.”

That’s a good one, Bonnie. I like it. Our Lord finds His ways to speak to us in unexpected ways.
We are taught to put money behind us, even to give it up entirely (throwing down the silver) and to “lose our lives” (hanging ourselves) in the following of our Lord’s Teachings.

For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it.

 

[Bonnie]

That’s a good one, Bonnie. I like it. Our Lord finds His ways to speak to us in unexpected ways.
We are taught to put money behind us, even to give it up entirely (throwing down the silver) and to “lose our lives” (hanging ourselves) in the following of our Lord’s Teachings.

For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it.

I think you misunderstood the point of the joke. And I notice you are suddenly not taking it quite so literally. And I hope you don’t!