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Lubomyr
Guest
Look very, very closely at the pictures. Why are there no homeless/jobless people working at the soup kitchen? Wake up, people.
Why do artists struggle? Wake up, people.
What about those who can, but choose not to? Wake up, people.
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tbcrawford
Guest
Excellent post…" Giving is about me and what I choose to do.You are blessed to be able to encounter so many homeless"…Absolutely correct.God bless you
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tbcrawford
Guest
We are commanded by God to love Him and to love our neighbour.
Therein lies the answer.
Therein lies the answer.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
It isn’t what this forum “is for.” This thread is about charity, and you have been distinctly uncharitable. If your opinions differ from another’s, say so. Attacking a person, in any way, not acceptable. You see the difference?
Generally:
I often hear that people do not give money directly because they don’t know how it’s going to be used. But that isn’t what Jesus said. He didn’t say, “If you find a worthy recipient who asks for money, give him some.” He said give to one who asks.
If you give to a charity, unless you investigate well, you really don’t know usually how much of your gift goes to inflated staff salaries and how much to need. (Use Charity Navigator.) Between ourselves and Christ, the issue is only the fact of giving. Anything else is between ourselves and our egos.
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
There ARE homeless and jobless people helping out at the soup kitchen.
Just because they didn’t post a complete set of photographs of every aspect of the soup kitchen service and all of the people doesn’t mean that what you didn’t see, didn’t happen. [Maybe if some posters actually worked there … watching stuff on television doesn’t give you the whole picture.]
One limiting factor is that many homeless people are mentally ill. They’re not capable of doing work. In fact, one little anecdote: a couple of the “patrons” of the soup kitchen STOLE all the meat that was delivered for one of days. They sold it to buy drugs.
In fact, one of the featured articles describes a couple who DID work there in exchange for food and other assistance.
nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/08/soup_kitchen_nj_love_story_ind.html
However, food handlers must be carefully vetted and supervised.
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tbcrawford
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Lubomyr
Guest
Funny how the fat lonely guy living in his mother’s basement, craving intelligent discussion of challenging moral issues out of a desperate desire to feel whole, is an unacceptable human being. But the beggar in the street taking advantage of people’s self-serving guilt and fatuous religiosity suddenly becomes Jesus in disguise.
Yeah, I see the difference. The difference is spiritual poverty isn’t worthy of alms, but only of supercilious deprecation.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
If you are lonely, get out of your mother’s basement and go work at the soup kitchen. You’ll meet many like-minded people who would be happy to discuss challenging moral issues. Both the workers and the ‘guests’ would likely be up for that discussion.
Here on the internet, we can’t always tell when someone is a lonely would-be philosopher or when someone is just being cranky. In either case though, the reaction to uncharitable posts is to call the person on it and ask him (or her) to be more polite in future postings.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
Let me be more clear. I was explaining to you that CAF is not like other forums and there is very little room for rudeness here. When you tell other posters to “wake up” you cast yourself in the role of smartest guy in the thread. Note that this perception is supported by the following sentence:
This single sentence can get you an infraction. In a thread about charity, I am hoping to avoid you being reported and instead, make it easier for you to successfully participate by understanding the way things work.
On topic, you might look at the first post here forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=619448 for a model of charity in a city amongst the poor.
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horselvr
Guest
I have a 45 yr old nephew that I recently took in because he told me he wanted to straighten out his life after “living on the streets” for 5 yrs. I did gladly take him in and was happy to try to help him in his quest to change his life.
Well, three months of him sitting in front of the TV obsessing over Casey Anthony of all people, or sunning himself in the chaise longe was enough to realize that helping the “homeless” is not my calling or should I say his type of homeless, which is by choice.
He gets $200+/month from the government to buy food, he lives in the shelter which he feels is better than having to pay rent or a mortgage (and looks down on those that do as he feels they are materialistic). He has a whole subset of enablers from the churches in the area to sympathetic people that feel sorry for him because he is “homeless”.
He finally told me he does not want a job and actually chuckled at me for being stunned by that admission and realization that I had been had. Needless to say, he doesn’t live here anymore.
There are the real homeless people, those that are homeless through circumstance and no fault of their own and then there are the homeless by choice (my nephew) and they are very slick at mooching, at least he is. Lazy as the day is long.
I plugged in “homeless by choice” and educated myself on this group. I’m done with it.
Well, three months of him sitting in front of the TV obsessing over Casey Anthony of all people, or sunning himself in the chaise longe was enough to realize that helping the “homeless” is not my calling or should I say his type of homeless, which is by choice.
He gets $200+/month from the government to buy food, he lives in the shelter which he feels is better than having to pay rent or a mortgage (and looks down on those that do as he feels they are materialistic). He has a whole subset of enablers from the churches in the area to sympathetic people that feel sorry for him because he is “homeless”.
He finally told me he does not want a job and actually chuckled at me for being stunned by that admission and realization that I had been had. Needless to say, he doesn’t live here anymore.
There are the real homeless people, those that are homeless through circumstance and no fault of their own and then there are the homeless by choice (my nephew) and they are very slick at mooching, at least he is. Lazy as the day is long.
I plugged in “homeless by choice” and educated myself on this group. I’m done with it.
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Lubomyr
Guest
If the correct response to a shiftless loser’s ploy for attention is to recommend he contribute to society rather than make a nuisance of himself, then it is also the correct response to a panhandler’s hustle.
I noticed you didn’t leave room for any possibility that I am mentally ill, physically handicapped, or otherwise forced into internet trolling by circumstances that are morally outside my control. Instead you put the blame squarely on me and treated me as a man who is responsible for himself and his lifestyle choices.
By doing so you have illustrated the irrationality of the purely imaginary justifications that so many people invent for themselves to excuse their perpetuation of others’ beggary. Tell me, did you think of me as Jesus in disguise when you chose to stand up to me and resist being used? Because you obviously didn’t think it was unChristian of you to withhold your valuable time from me and keep your priceless electrons to yourself and turn your nose up at my bait. Because it wasn’t unChristian of you to do so. Refusing to give me the handout I was trying to extract from you was in fact the right thing to do.
On the one hand you showed no pity for my (self-created) plight, while on the other hand you avoided engaging me in a fruitless bickering session ultimately ordered toward giving me my strokes without having to earn them … and that fact alone would make you an uncharitable, judgmental meanie in the eyes of many posters in this thread, if the analogy holds.
In laying reasonable expectations of self-care and self-respect on my shoulders, you have elegantly dismantled the silly belief that playing the patsy is what Jesus calls us to do. You called me on it. By the same token, shouldn’t we call them on it?
On another note, after I get a job and my own place, Sally, how would I go about finding an upstanding wife like you?
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jamesguy
Guest
i often give some loose change to homeless and also befriend them.I recently moved to a big city area for a while and have been in the city on the weekends touring various sites. The cities are DC and Baltimore.
I usually take the metro when I go into downtown DC and I frequently witness the lesser of our society in all kinds of ways.
I can recall my first time using the metro to go to DC, a homeless man in a powered wheelchair came up to me and my friend and started talking about how someone robbed him of his $14 while he was sleeping. I believe he was a veteran and he wondered if my friend and I were military because of our short haircuts (we are not), but it was a good conversation. A bunch of thoughts were racing through my head while he was talking, since I was trying to figure out what to do. I wanted to help. I offered him food and asked if he was hungry, but he said he had some food and didn’t need any and that he didn’t want any money nor did he want to ask us for any. He then went on to say he was just trying to find the good in people and that he couldn’t understand why someone would rob him of all people.
He then said “God Bless” to which I replied the same to him and he was on his way. Please keep this man in your prayers.
Ever since then I’ve been on high alert and almost actively sought out looking for the homeless in the sense that I would not be caught off guard or passive if I encountered someone while in the city.
I can recall another encounter where a woman was going from train car to train car asking for money while holding a sign with a picture of what appeared to be her children and writing that she needed money. She seemed rushed and almost systematic in her way of going through the whole train, getting off at each stop after offering a general “God Bless” to everyone in the train car and then running up to the next car while the train was stopped at the platform. For whatever reason, I couldn’t feel up to giving her money. Maybe it was because I didn’t sense a genuine need? Her way of collecting money?Not being able to stop and talk and listen to her? I don’t know, but remember this woman too please in your prayers. Was I wrong to think this way of her?
Approximately a month later, I saw this same woman doing her thing while on the metro. This time I was prepared and when she came to me I smiled and looked at her eyes and said I would be praying for her, to which she hardly acknowledged and continued to make her rounds.
Another time this man was standing near the base of the escalators down to the platform and seemed to be rambling about how he needed some money for the metro or something. I couldn’t make him out clearly, but now that I think about it, if that was the case, I’m not really sure because he was already in the paid side of the metro and had a single use card in his hand. I didn’t have any singles so I gave him a $5. He seemed happy and said he would spread it around. Maybe he did. Please pray for this man.
In between these encounters I also recall running into a man in downtown Baltimore near the Basilica who asked for some money. I had singles and gave him $1. He asked me if I had $10 so he could buy a bicycle. I only gave him $1 though. Please pray for him.
Now, in other instances, I pass by individuals who sit on the curb or sidewalk areas in the downtown parts of DC and National Mall areas who shake a cup full of change screaming “Spare change…” etc. I can’t move myself to offer any $1’s to these individuals.I don’t carry change, either. It seems like they are everywhere, too! Please pray for them all! But, I have to ask: Should I just stop and talk to them, find out what they really need? Possibly point them somewhere for help?
And lastly, just today, I was walking through DC on my way to a scheduled event and I saw a man digging through one of the city street corner trash cans. This seemed to signify that he was really genuinely in need. He was doing something to try to survive. I wish I had stopped to ask him if he needed some food. Please pray for this man, too!
In summary, if anyone is familiar with these kinds of situations and has experience or feedback to offer for how I could respond or help when I encounter the lesser of our society, please share your thoughts. I would greatly appreciate it.
what i see,what i don t like,is when people think these people are getting some free ride or are lazy. most people don t fake it, when begging esp. if they are dishevled and seen as broken. these people are living in hell, and being crucified. the worst thing is for people to treat them badly. i see you are doing such a great thing. the best thing is to even give a little and be polite.and some want some conversation as very lonely. if very troubled and screaming, then you just keep a bit of a distance…
they want to be respected and want money,and food etc…most cannot work, way to broken…mental illness,drug addction, etc…wears you[in most of these] down[or great abuse in life] to zero. they just want some money and connection, and even if they want to live on the streets its their choice. thier choice as such, they are too ill and freaked out, in many cases, to want to live amongst mainstream society.
i ve given street people bibles, fruit, a dollar,blankets…etc…
a guy where i live,didn t like chicken when i offered, and i respect that.
they need to be respected.
once i gave food to a streetguy, the guy beside me, said, “dont give him food,hes smoking, see he has money for cigarettes.” but i think,thought, that smoking but be one of his only joys. people like him need many joys and great generousity.
and part of my inspiration in helping streetpeople,re;books by mother terressa.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
But this isn’t about you, or anyone’s response to you. On CAF, things are about Jesus Christ. The Church is the body of Christ on earth. Nothing you, or I, or any other poster thinks is actually relevant. The only thing that is, is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
What did Jesus say?
Give to one who asks.
He did not say: Decide who is worthy.
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Lubomyr
Guest
Then bring it on. I’m used to being ignored, silenced, and threatened when I call a spade a spade.
With my own eyes I have seen people volunteer themselves and their families for harm and unspeakable abuse in the name of being Christlike. So I regard such sentiments, with their veneer of piety, with the utmost cynicism. For that is certainly *not *what Jesus meant by his “Least of My Brothers” parable - nor was it what Paul had in mind when he said wives should submit to their husbands. I know it sounds like a stretch, but subjectively, both ethical issues are in the same genus of moral choices, that of self-sacrifice for the good of another.
And if I can wake people up to the mind games they play with themselves in the matter of charitable giving, who knows, maybe I can get some battered girlfriend to think twice about what it means to suffer for the gospel and eventually save an innocent child’s life somewhere down the line. Because at its root, it’s the same mentality: whether it’s a beggar on the street who supposedly “needs” your handout, or a loser boyfriend who claims he “can’t live” without you, many people think the Christian thing to do is to sacrifice yourself. Give until it hurts. And then some. Because the panhandler, or your cokeheaded abuser, is really poor helpless needy little Jesus in rags waiting for you to save him from himself. Or so people tell themselves. Because it’s easier than exercising the moral courage to put an end to the charade by telling the panhandler to act like a man, or the babydaddy to choose between getting his act together and going to jail.
I know it’s a tenuous connection, but I hate to see people being used, for a dollar, for a sandwich, or … worse. It’s the same way of thinking, a penchant for pious yet craven self-victimization … albeit to a (markedly) different degree of seriousness.
Something about family gatherings just brings this out of me. It’s that time of year again, isn’t it?
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Julia_Mae
Guest
Again, not about you. My post was not a threat, it was information offered in charity.
Back to the topic. How do you feel, as a Catholic, according to the Gospels, you should respond to the kinds of things outlined in the OP?
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Lubomyr
Guest
ROFL Horselvr that is hilarious! (I’m laughing with you, not at you. It’s a laugh of recognition.) And they all have a team of enablers whose backs they surf on, don’t they?
Back when I was young and naive (last year) I took pity on a “friend” of mine and floated him over $700 under assorted pretexts ranging from January utility bills to employment-jeopardizing auto repairs. I will never see that money again. Or him. I look at the money as a sort of tuition fee for a hands-on course in wising up. Or so I tell myself!
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horselvr
Guest
“And they all have a team of enablers whose backs they surf on, don’t they?”
Well, I cannot, and will not say that “they all” have enablers whose backs they surf on but I do know that my nephew is a user.
Surely you do agree that there are those out there that are homeless and not doing well through circumstance that really need to catch a break.
I was very upset with my nephew for using the extra bedroom when this room and the one across from it could have been used to house a single mother that really needed the help and her child/children instead of his lazy 45 yr old rear.
It is important that I remind myself of this fact also especially after wanting to help him only to realize I was had. Yes, I had to wisen up (as you put it) where my nephew is concerned but I still need to offer assistance to those truly in need. And they are out there.
Well, I cannot, and will not say that “they all” have enablers whose backs they surf on but I do know that my nephew is a user.
Surely you do agree that there are those out there that are homeless and not doing well through circumstance that really need to catch a break.
I was very upset with my nephew for using the extra bedroom when this room and the one across from it could have been used to house a single mother that really needed the help and her child/children instead of his lazy 45 yr old rear.
It is important that I remind myself of this fact also especially after wanting to help him only to realize I was had. Yes, I had to wisen up (as you put it) where my nephew is concerned but I still need to offer assistance to those truly in need. And they are out there.
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jmcrae
Guest
Yep - been there, done that. I had a “friend” I lent money to for his damage deposit on an apartment. When he got the damage deposit back, I asked him for the money to be returned (without interest) - well, guess what, the poor baby got sick with so many diseases I could hardly keep track (and somehow this meant that he couldn’t pay me back - this is Canada, we get free medical care; I don’t get the connection) - anyhow, he came down with prostate cancer, shingles, some kind of galloping bowel inflammation, and panic anxiety.
I called him on it, and guess what, I’m obviously a terrible Christian for even daring to think he’s a lying son of a gun, not to mention, a rotten thief - classic abusive behaviour. Anyway, yeah - never give money to anybody, no matter how well you think you know them, and no matter how badly they will fall if you don’t.
He might have ended up homeless if I hadn’t given him that money, but that’s not as bad as becoming a liar and a thief, I don’t think. Before, he would have experienced physical discomfort, but now, he may very well end up in Hell, all because I lent him some money.
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Lubomyr
Guest
What Sally said. Stand up to them.
Did you know the Bible says *flee *temptation, but *resist *the devil? Most people get it backwards. The difference is that temptation comes from within, but the devil is from without. Hence the devil is a free moral agent with respect to you, while temptation is contingent upon your own disposition, which in turn is under the control of free will, to the extent that original sin allows (cf. Trent).
So if inappropriate external demands are to be resisted rather than avoided, then the proper response to panhandlers must be to resist them.
Panhandlers are not devils, however apt the comparison may be on whatever level. But the model for resistance is, as usual, Jesus in his numerous scuffles with the denizens of hell:
- During his 40 day pre-ministry retreat, he silenced the devil by granting the devil’s assumptions while demonstrating his fallacies:
- Challenged to turn stones into bread, Jesus reiterated the hierarchy of man’s needs. So to a panhandler who asks for food, as a Catholic I would exhort him to get a job and earn an honest meal, because according to God that is the proper order under the current post-edenic state of affairs (cf. Genesis 3:19). Besides, God made Man in his image and likeness, and entrusted him with a God-like stewardship over the rest of creation; if you’re going to efface that image and act like a helpless, dependent parasite then I will treat you like one (cf. Acts 28:3, 5).
- Challenged to throw himself down, citing God’s solicitude for his holy ones, Jesus repeated the warning against self-destructive habits. So as a Catholic I would tell him to quit expecting everyone else to save him.
- Challenged to give inappropriate respect to a liar in return for a self-serving payoff, Jesus reasserted the primacy of rendering justice to the Sun of Justice. So as a Catholic I would tell a panhandler, “No Deal!” Because even if he is not misrepresenting his circumstances (and practically all panhandlers lie about their plight), he’s still presuming to hijack my natural impulse to help those in need by playing on my pity. James reminds us that widows and orphans are uniquely the objects of charity (James 1:27) because they are objectively and unambiguously in need, and for reasons that are decisively outside their control; in their case justice requires we pick up the slack. Lazy drunks with the gift of the gab need not apply. That’s why the Double Commandment has “Love God” *first *and “Love your neighbor” second.
- During his ministry, he either silenced possessing demons or bested them by authority rather than argument.
- “What have we to do with you, Jesus of Nazareth? Are you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God. And Jesus threatened him, saying: Speak no more, and go out of the man. And the unclean spirit, tearing him and crying out with a loud voice, went out of him.” (Mark 1:24-26) So as a Catholic, if I see panhandlers in my neighborhood, or worse in my family, out they go, no questions asked, no answers given. Because we don’t allow that here. Oh they will complain, and their naive enablers will join the chorus, but out they go.
- Where will they go? “When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.” (Matthew 12:43-45) Yes, I’m condemning the destitute to a life out on the street. But I’m not throwing away “charity” at someone who is going to squander the help only to end up back at square one again. If they want to shelter themselves among swine who are only going to let them stick around temporarily that’s their problem (Luke 8:33). And **realizing you’ve hit rock bottom, **to the point where you’re actually craving hogslop - **now that right there is a great motivational tool for getting back on track **(Luke 15:16). Remember, when the Prodigal Son realized he wanted to dine with pigs, he woke up and started looking for a real job. And he started with his connections. So as a Catholic, I would tell them maybe they need to be destitute until they deal responsibly with the advantages they already have.
Anyway there is more, connected with the Coin in the Fish’s Mouth, Render Unto Caesar, the"Get Thee Behind Me Satan" incident, the “But The Dogs Eat The Crumbs” story, the Widow’s Mite, and Peter’s “Gold And Silver Have I None” from Acts. So don’t think I’m winging it. I’ve been thinking about “charity” for decades, I just needed some lively sparring with the sharp contributors to this forum to crystallize it all in my mind.
…for which act of spiritual mercy on y’all’s parts, I am grateful this Thanksgiving season.
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