Pan's Labyrinth

[Mirdath]

1. Why did she have to kill the frog? Why is she not fazed by killing it?

It’s a fairy tale. Things happen in fairy tales – and I’m not talking about the bowdlerized Disney versions. ‘Snow White’ ends with the evil stepmother dancing to death in red-hot iron shoes. ‘Cinderella’ has the two stepsisters cutting off parts of their feet to try to fit into the glass slipper, only to be exposed by ravens. ‘Rapunzel’ has Prince Charming raping the title character before putting his eyes out like Oedipus. ‘Little Red Riding Hood’ involves the rape of a child and cannibalism, quite explicitly.

A giant frog dying is nothing compared to what one finds in the Grimms’ stories. Fairy tales are not for children – or they weren’t until Andrew Lang and Walt Disney got to them.

1. Why does she pay no consequences for having touched the apple?

Do you mean the grapes she ate from the Pale Man’s feast? Again, this is straight out of classic fairytaledom.

1. Why is she wearing a dalmatic at the end? [Related question: why did advocates of women priests adore this film?]

The costume director decided ‘let’s do it like this’, I suppose

1. Why is the third chair of the trinity empty? And why is a woman at the right hand of the father?

It’s not the Father, but her father – or, perhaps, the doctor. It’s not a trinitarian reference. Ofelia is being reunited with her family.

There’s a lot of not-so-subtle heresy in this film. And yes, it’s intentional. Look at this section from the director’s interview:

Whether or not it’s intentional, and whether or not it’s heretical – and it would seem that you’re reading altogether too much of both into two hours of visual entertainment – how exactly does this fictional tale detract from the glory of God and undermine the teachings of the Church?

 

[mlchance]

In real life Franco and his nationalist soldiers were saviors of Spain.

In real life, Franco’s fascist government was just another socialist dictatorship that terrorized, tortured, and murdered dissidents and sought to subjugate any and all perceived threats to the government’s presumed supremacy. This included targeting the Church when deemed necessary in the early years of his regime.

That Franco’s Nationalists killed fewer priests than the Communists hardly makes the Nationalists the “saviors of Spain.”

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[RomanCrusader]

In real life, Franco’s fascist government was just another socialist dictatorship that terrorized, tortured, and murdered dissidents and sought to subjugate any and all perceived threats to the government’s presumed supremacy. This included targeting the Church when deemed necessary in the early years of his regime.

That Franco’s Nationalists killed fewer priests than the Communists hardly makes the Nationalists the “saviors of Spain.”

– Mark L. Chance.

Franco was hardly a socialist. He was a Spanish traditionalist.

Contrary to many rumors, there were no “mass killings” in Spain, save one. That one killing immediately followed the Spanish civil war, where Franco decided to end the communist threat for good. While it is very regretable that there had to be so many executions, Franco wanted to make sure the communists could not return to take over Spain again. I’m not justifying the act itself, I’m just explaining why Franco felt it was for the greater good. One must remember how many innocent people the commies murdered, and no doubt those memories convinced Franco that the communist threat had to be totally annihilated.

I have not heard of a single incident of Franco harming the Church. On the contrary, he made Catholicism the official state religion!

And the nationalist soldiers were indeed “saviors of Spain” because they liberated Spain from a cabal of communists were were abusing the Spanish people in unspeakable ways. Had I lived in Spain at the time I would have been proud to wear the nationalist uniform and drive the communist government from the land.

 

[RomanCrusader]

Are you saying that the numerous accounts of them committing atrocities are simply lies, or that these atrocities were somehow justified for the “greater good.”

I realize Franco and the nationalists did commit some atrocities, and there is no excuse for that. However, every army has committed crimes at some point. Do we blame the whole group? No. I dare to say the MAJORITY of nationalists did not commit atroities. And the communists without a doubt made up several certain atrocities and pinned them on Franco.

Franco and the nationalists were trying to liberate Spain from a savage communist government, and for that I commend them.

 

[mlchance]

Franco was hardly a socialist. He was a Spanish traditionalist.

Franco was a fascist. Fascism is a form of socialism that was unequivocally condemned by the Church. Franco’s regime murdered and tortured thousands of people. Franco was no hero even if he was less monstrous than the other socialists who defeated to gain control of Spain.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Mirdath]

I realize Franco and the nationalists did commit some atrocities, and there is no excuse for that. However, every army has committed crimes at some point. Do we blame the whole group?

Yeah, pretty much. We especially blame the leaders.

No. I dare to say the MAJORITY of nationalists did not commit atroities.

Sure, most of them were perfectly ordinary people in the service of a monstrous engine of hatred and destruction – much like all the good Germans in the 1930s, another shining example of nationalism.

Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead, and for that I am most grateful.

 

[Contarini]

I realize Franco and the nationalists did commit some atrocities, and there is no excuse for that. However, every army has committed crimes at some point. Do we blame the whole group? No.

If the leaders appear to encourage or at least not to care that atrocities are being committed, then absolutely. And then there is the repressive regime Franco instituted once he won.

How was he morally superior to the Communists? You keep using loaded language like “he saved Spain from the savage Communists.” How were they any more savage than the Nationalists? What was the qualitative difference, other than the fact that they were against the Church and Franco was (in some sense) for it?

In other words, when Republican soldiers massacred priests, was the attitude of the Republican leadership any more encouraging of these atrocities than the attitude of Franco to the atrocities committed by his soldiers? How can you demonstrate this?

And the communists without a doubt made up several certain atrocities and pinned them on Franco.

If you know this without a doubt, then you should be able to provide some evidence for this. Or does “without a doubt” really mean “I know this by faith”?

Edwin

 

[Monica4316]

I was going to watch this movie and it seems like it’s really well made, but I decided against it. I really don’t like how the Blind Man is supposed to symbolize the Church, in the director’s mind… I know that this might not be obvious in the movie at all, but if that was the intention, that sort of bothers me. Also, the priest… I know that there are good and bad priests out there, but - if a movie only shows the bad ones, doesn’t that influence the way people in general see the Church? and then if people see the Church as something bad, they would not see the good priests accurately anymore… I wish the portrayal was more balanced. And regarding Franco, I don’t know much about Spanish history, it could be that the nationalists committed such atrocities as suggested by the movie, but it seems that the movie doesn’t show both sides; so the other side is shown as being very good… it’s not shown how they killed priests, etc. So all this kind of bothers me about the movie, and when I found out about it all, I just lost the desire to see it.

 

[CesarAugustus]

The communists in the Spanish Civil War killed more than 4000 Priests, Nuns, Monks and Bishops.

In today’s Spain, the socialists try to hide that, and to put focus on the Nationalists.

 

[tra072011]

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[tra072011]

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[deuterium2h]

I realize I am resuscitating a very old thread, but I just watched Pan’s Labyrinth for (I believe) the 3rd time. I love the story-telling, the direction, the cinematography, the atmosphere, and the amazing performances. However, there is no question that Del Toro has an anti-Catholic agenda, and his prejudices make their way into the film, both overtly as well as covertly (and even subversively)…and I enjoy the film despite these issues.

I encourage everyone to read Rodney Stark’s “Bearing False Witness”, publishd by Templeton Press (2016). Stark has part of a chapter dedicated to the Spanish Civil War. Bottom line, the liberal and socialist elite, intellectuals and media have re-written history to portray the relationship between the Catholic Church and General Francisco Franco’s nationalist government in a twisted and misleading light.

The Spanish Republican socialists (sponsored by the Soviet Union) were fanatically anti-Catholic / anti-cleric, and sought to destroy the Church and harass, terrorize, threaten, torture and murder as many clergy as possible. This was a bona fide pogrom, and the Catholic Church had no choice but to support Franco, as his government was the only authority which offered protection and security for the clergy and faithful.

Nevertheless, the socialist Republicans were able to accomplish kilo-death atrocities against the Church, including the murder of:

13 bishops
4,172 diocesan priests and seminarians
2,364 monks and friars
283 nuns

Many of these deaths involved torture and abhorrently cruel and depraved methods of execution.

 

[Luvz2travel]

Tried to watch it. Too weird and creep for me.