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mkingdomlvr
Guest
and those women were just as wrong for judging your clothing choice as those who sit in judgment on those women who do not choose dresses and skirts for full time wear.
Why are women so hard on each other?
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Why are women so hard on each other?
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RedSoxWife
Guest
I don’t judge women who wear dresses! I hold myself to the standards that I set for myself, and I fall short frequently! I wear pants quite a bit, although I’m trying to make a transition over. I don’t even judge girls in skimpy skirt or tight jeans because I dressed just like that less than a decade ago and the truth is that they probably truly don’t know any better. Thank you for assuming that you know what I think though.and those women were just as wrong for judging your clothing choice as those who sit in judgment on those women who do not choose dresses and skirts for full time wear.
Why are women so hard on each other?
However, I am going to jump in and defend dressing modestly, particularly since the status quo is going in the opposite direction. By your standards you are judging me, aren’t you? I’m not saying that these woman are doing something wrong, only that they should consider the other point of view. And it does upset me when the women on these threads jump all over each and every man who tries to voice an opinion. I don’t see why we aren’t all entitled to our own opinions.
I just think that women who wear pants should consider these things rather than just disregarding the thought offhand as sexist, which I think is what frequently happens. And there is the fact that the Spiritual Works of Mercy include Admonishing the Sinner, not that I am suggesting that anyone hear is dressing in a sinful manner.
I guess I just wanted to point out that dressing a certain way does create Near Occasions of Sin for other people. Although it seems like many people don’t want to take responsibility for their own sins, much less try to keep others from sinning, as I usually see in the responses when I bring up this part of the argument.
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mkingdomlvr
Guest
I never said YOU were the one judging, but that you were the one BEING judged by the women who gave you odd looks at the park. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear.
FTR-I think you have a very healthy attitude about how you have chosen to dress. You’ve explained your journey and I’ve never seen you fling accusations at others. However, I’m sure you can admit that not everyone in the “modesty movement” shares your charitable attitude towards others. There is admonishing the sinner, and there is being judgmental and you clearly know the difference.
I think it’s a personal choice and as a previous poster said, we should always assume the best of others. When it comes to dressing modestly, there is no one single right way to do it. Reasonable faithful Catholic women can and do come to different conclusions.
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EvelynEVF
Guest
I wear skirts and dresses almost exclusively, because they permit freer movement. They are also much more forgiving of my cycle-related shape changes.
I agree with those who say that pants vs skirts isn’t really the issue, because either one can be modest or immodest.
One thing I definitely notice, though–when I wear a dress in public, I get better service! Salespeople are more helpful; while walking I’m more likely to be waved through an intersection by a driver. Foul-mouthed kids at the park clean it up real quick
People treat me much differently when I’m dressed up a bit.
But I will not paste some kind of moral component on it, or tell anybody that they ought to dress like me! It was a bad experience that I wouldn’t wish on anyone that caused me to start covering up. Now I do it by free choice.
I agree with those who say that pants vs skirts isn’t really the issue, because either one can be modest or immodest.
One thing I definitely notice, though–when I wear a dress in public, I get better service! Salespeople are more helpful; while walking I’m more likely to be waved through an intersection by a driver. Foul-mouthed kids at the park clean it up real quick
People treat me much differently when I’m dressed up a bit.
But I will not paste some kind of moral component on it, or tell anybody that they ought to dress like me! It was a bad experience that I wouldn’t wish on anyone that caused me to start covering up. Now I do it by free choice.
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adstrinity
Guest
But, it’s true: she’s simply not a well researched writter. Just from that sample it was too unscholarly. She is not using logic, she is using emotions. I have read nothing that says a female should wear a skirt. She starts off by saying that God was not happy with the fig leave coverings they made for themselves and that God found they needed more coverage…and they weren’t the Tarzan and Jane models. HOW WOULD SHE KNOW!!! I always assumed that they asked God to make the animal skins. God, I think, but, I cannot be certain, would be upset that they asked to be hidden from Him more. …That is IF we take this myth as literal. Whether this happened exactly like it did in the narrative is not the point of the Second Creation Story.
AND, again, it does matter that she chooses to be selective about who she chooses to use for demonstrative purposes when trying to get her point across. The point is, if one thinks about it, women of other cultures have and do wear pants. It was logical. Are these women any less feminine?
And, Finally (for now), she said that men look at the crotch of a woman when she wears pants. Am I the only woman here who constantly looks at the crotch of a man? It’s just…there…and either bulging or dangling in their pants. There’s ample reason to look, yet, they can still wear pants. …Seriously, am I the only woman who looks? Should this be another thread?
If ANYTHING would get me to get to wear skirts/dresses, it is still that Holy Clothing site.
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BlyssfulDreamer
Guest
Based upon what you noted in your message…yes, I believe you have reason for concern. I would turn and run…not walk away from any priest who speaks such as this one did. He equates pants to “sodomy”?!
That is a little much. That is the furthest thing I see when I see a woman awearing pants. I have to wonder where his head is at making such extreme comments.Do you really think you will go to hell for wearing pants? Sorry, I disagree. Stop and think. Do you think our Lord would banish you to an eternity in hell for wearing pants if otherwise you were a good, charitable person who kept the Commandents and the laws of the Church?
I am a Traditionalist I guess you would say. I attend daily Mass…every day…rain or shine…I contribute to my church and the first time I would hear those despicable things come out of the mouth of one of the priests at my church I would be gone in a New York minute. Now, I can agree with short shorts…mini skirts, low revealing blouses…but pants that are well fitting, not tight…should not be looked down on. I feel anyone who is at Mass and feels upset and disgusted because I am wearing nice dress pants are not in Chuurch for the right reasons. Maybe they should learn some charity…and concentrate on what THEY are there for and that is for the worship of our Lord.
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DARRYLW
Guest
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BlyssfulDreamer
Guest
As a woman who is in her 60s I feel very close to God when I go to Mass dressed in pants. If one believes that how they are dressed would determine their closeness to God then they might want to stop and thinkl about why they are at church. Now, if there are women who feel superior to me because they are wearing dresses compared to my pants, I again have to wonder about their charity…or lack thereof.
BTW…I could not in any way be construed as a man and I am also pleased to say I have been given the dignity that a woman who conducts herself respectably deserves.
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DARRYLW
Guest
Hey, if Fulton Sheen is your home boy, he would kick your butt for having that type of attitude. 
He would have agreed about woman wearing dresses not slacks.
So if you don’t beleave that then you better get a new home boy.
DARRYLW
He would have agreed about woman wearing dresses not slacks.So if you don’t beleave that then you better get a new home boy.
DARRYLW
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BlyssfulDreamer
Guest
*** “Home boy”? “Kick your butt?” *** Hmmmm…maybe a person’s style of dress should not be your first concern.Hey, if Fulton Sheen is your home boy, he would kick your butt for having that type of attitude.
So if you don’t beleave that then you better get a new home boy.
DARRYLW
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peregrinator_it
Guest
I agree. I feel like the proverbial broken record because my contribution to these discussions is usually the same.
Really, I think we make too big a deal of clothes. I decided a long time ago what I felt was appropriate to wear without advertising my body, and having conformed to those guidelines, I pick what to wear based on what is practical, appropriate and safe for any given situation. (And, yes, that includes (modest) pants a lot of the time. They are simply more practical for my state in life.) To do anything else, seems to me to be placing undo importance on something that is merely external.
Modesty is a virtue, a part of the virtue of temperance. Although we express this virtue through what we wear, modesty in its essence is not a dress code. It is an interior disposition like all the virtues; an intent to refuse “to unveil what should remain hidden.” (CCC 2521)
Because the essence of the virtue of modesty is interior, the ways in which modesty is outwardly expressed legitimately vary. (CCC 2524) Thus, it is irrational to suggest that any article of clothing is “objectively” immodest.
This is what the Church teaches. The priest in the OP is demanding (demanding, it seems, not recommending) more than the Church teaches. I would, personally, find that a scandal, and I would find another parish.
Now, the Church lays down guidelines for practice that are the essentials. It is good to go beyond the essentials in the practice of faith, if it helps you to holiness. But, as finite human beings we cannot practice all the virtues to perfection, and even the saints got to heaven not by doing everything perfectly, but by following God’s will for them perfectly. The saints’ paths to heaven do not all emphasize the same virtues.
Thus, I think it is counter-productive for those who have chosen to go above and beyond the Church’s teaching in a certain area, to insist that everyone else do the same or that those who do not do the same are “presenting Near Occasions of Sin” to others.
(Aside: I would really love to know what Mrs. Hammond thinks of Joan of Arc, or of the Roman slave women who became saints. I mean, really, can you imagine St. Francis suggesting that others were sinning because they did not treat “Brother A**” with the same level of disregard as he did…?!)
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mkingdomlvr
Guest
You may tire of saying it-but you make a reasoned point and it appears that it still does need to be repeated.
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Katrina5
Guest
I don’t get this whole argument. It all comes down to the basic belief that women are evil and seduce men into losing control over their (sexual) behavior.
From pants, are we going to move on to hair and make-up, and don’t forget- shoes! The temptations of the flesh are just too much.
As for blurring of the sexes-- you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say “She must be a female because she has long hair, lipstick, and wears a skirt, and he must be a male because he has short hair, no lipstick, and wears pants. Therefore, she is tempting the poor hapless male into sin.”
If we all wore burkas, including men, this wouldn’t be discussed.
When we worked on a dress code at my job, it was ALL ABOUT THE WOMEN! And the same arguments. It all boils down to men blaming women for seducing them. Adam blamed Eve and nothing has changed.
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Katrina5
Guest
Very well stated. There is more to modesty than how we dress. It is an attitude and a state of mind. I think pants are more modest than a short skirt.
What did Jesus wear? What did the apostles wear? Robes, tunics, whatever.
This has to be one of the dumbest discussions I have ever read on CA, and I’m disappointed because I usually get so much from this site!
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Katrina5
Guest
I wear both and can’t say dresses make me feel closer to God. Pants don’t make me feel closer to God, either. Perhaps I should wear a skirt over the pants, just to make sure God can tell I’m close to Him. Oh, wait. He’s God. He already knows that.As a woman who is in her 60s I feel very close to God when I go to Mass dressed in pants. If one believes that how they are dressed would determine their closeness to God then they might want to stop and thinkl about why they are at church. Now, if there are women who feel superior to me because they are wearing dresses compared to my pants, I again have to wonder about their charity…or lack thereof.
BTW…I could not in any way be construed as a man and I am also pleased to say I have been given the dignity that a woman who conducts herself respectably deserves.
God isn’t the one with the problem, here, folks. I’m not a feminist, or mannish, either. But I refuse to dress like the members of that inbred cult that made the news last year. If you can’t tell who is a woman and who is a man, focus on what is happening at the altar instead of looking around and letting your imagination take wing.
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Katrina5
Guest
I was a supervisor in a social service agency and supervised a man who had fetish problems.
It was a constant source of trouble because everything any woman wore would set him off. We had to constantly be on guard, and everything centered around his problem. If a clerk walked past in a skirt, it was a problem, if someone wore pants, it was a problem, and the boots issue just went on and on to the point where we finally said “Enough!” he needs to be fired.
When his wife came in, guess what. She looked just like him. Same hair, same glasses, matching clothes. (No boots, though.)
So that’s why I get sick of this kind of discussion. Because that guy never got any work done because his focus was not on work, it was on himself and the distractions caused by everyone else.
So you could say it’s a touchy subject for me.
It was a constant source of trouble because everything any woman wore would set him off. We had to constantly be on guard, and everything centered around his problem. If a clerk walked past in a skirt, it was a problem, if someone wore pants, it was a problem, and the boots issue just went on and on to the point where we finally said “Enough!” he needs to be fired.
When his wife came in, guess what. She looked just like him. Same hair, same glasses, matching clothes. (No boots, though.)
So that’s why I get sick of this kind of discussion. Because that guy never got any work done because his focus was not on work, it was on himself and the distractions caused by everyone else.
So you could say it’s a touchy subject for me.
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Ohiomom
Guest
This has been an interesting thread and I have decided to throw in my two cents. At the TLM mass I attend and the one where we sometimes visit the majority of women do wear dresses or skirts. I have seen the occasional woman in a pair of pants, but it is not a fashion show, we are at mass. Most importantly, we don’t know what is in someone’s heart or what their situation is so we should not judge, but witness. Obviously what is considered women’s clothing and men’s clothing has changed over time and depending on the culture.
I have definitely worn clothes at times that were not modest. I did read Dressing With Dignity about 4 years ago, and she does make some good points though I understand some have issues with her scholarship. I did try wearing only dresses and skirts for some time but went back to wearing pants. Now that our daughter is getting older I have been looking at what I wear and what I want to model for her and I am moving back towards wearing modest dresses & skirts.
As I said, imho, one of the most important traits we can demonstrate in these days, is modesty. If you don’t believe me go looking in the toddler girl’s department of a store. It was a challenge for me to find a one piece swimsuit for my 2 year old because so many of them were 2 piece bikini styles. Mini-skirt style are all over the place. I am certain most of us who have seen a teen girl or young adult at mass in an outfit that is astoundingly revealing. We have lost the sense of what is appropriate and sacred. What I am hoping to model for my daughter is that dresses and skirts are nice and feminine and do not hinder our daily work in any way.
I have definitely worn clothes at times that were not modest. I did read Dressing With Dignity about 4 years ago, and she does make some good points though I understand some have issues with her scholarship. I did try wearing only dresses and skirts for some time but went back to wearing pants. Now that our daughter is getting older I have been looking at what I wear and what I want to model for her and I am moving back towards wearing modest dresses & skirts.
As I said, imho, one of the most important traits we can demonstrate in these days, is modesty. If you don’t believe me go looking in the toddler girl’s department of a store. It was a challenge for me to find a one piece swimsuit for my 2 year old because so many of them were 2 piece bikini styles. Mini-skirt style are all over the place. I am certain most of us who have seen a teen girl or young adult at mass in an outfit that is astoundingly revealing. We have lost the sense of what is appropriate and sacred. What I am hoping to model for my daughter is that dresses and skirts are nice and feminine and do not hinder our daily work in any way.
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RedSoxWife
Guest
I did misunderstand then! Sorry and thank you very much for clearing it up!
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AutumnSakura
Guest
I have been interested in the modesty debate for some time, and I can see both sides of the argument. One of the main flaws I’ve noticed in these types of discussions is a glorification of the past. So often people claim that people of the past, be it the 1950’s or the 150’s, were somehow more dignified and less morally degenerate than folks now. This is wrong. People were sinful then, people are sinful now. The only difference, at least that I can see, is that different societies openly struggle with different sins. Currently, our society openly struggles with sins of sexuality. In other times and societies, the struggle may have been with a different sin. I don’t feel it’s necessary or helpful to look to the past for indications of how to behave in the now. Christians should dress modestly, yes, but should also be culturally appropriate. We do not have to take big strides to be “counter-counter-cultural” through our dress or facades. If we are truly living the life of the Church, we will be plenty noticeable. Christ has the power to redeem all parts of a culture, and human cultures are constantly changing and evolving. Saying that pants are “sin-producing” or inherently immodest in this day and age is illogical, given that our culture has changed, and it is now acceptable for women to wear pants. How does Christ redeem this cultural shift? By allowing women the freedom to choose their clothing based upon their conscience, and to allow them to choose clothing that meets the standards of both modesty and culture.
If you, a woman, feel horribly exposed in pants, then don’t wear them. But please don’t impose the dictates of your conscience upon other people and judge them. Instead, pray for them, and perhaps kindly offer suggestions for outfits that are modest but at least reasonably fashionable.
If you, a woman, find skirts impractical, or feel your freedom as a Christian is imposed upon by the “fashion police”, then wear pants. Please use your God-given discernment to choose your clothing wisely.
When I think of the example of the Theotokos, I do not think she would ever tell a woman that she looks like a whore, or is “damned” to hell for wearing pants, or that she is worthy of eternal beatitude for wearing a frumpy dress. I believe that she would love the woman regardless and speak to her “the truth in love”, and strive to live her own life in the Holy Spirit, modelling charity and patience, with the firm conviction that through her prayers and the redemptive work of Christ, the woman would come to the knowledge of the truth.
As for the men out there, please don’t judge the women around you for their fashion choices. You should also be modelling modesty of character and charity. Certainly don’t ogle, and don’t EVER blame the woman for YOUR sin. Strive to look at them as Christ does: as people filled with the soul-sickness of sin, who desperately need the love of God.
Something that helps me in my day to day life is remembering to always strive to see the image of God in people. When I get irritated or impatient, or I begin to judge someone, I try to see God’s image in their soul, and then I find it helps in the battle against sin.
In the end, modesty is like so many things in the Christian life: using discernment to find a middle ground in order to live a peaceful and Christ-centered life.
If you, a woman, feel horribly exposed in pants, then don’t wear them. But please don’t impose the dictates of your conscience upon other people and judge them. Instead, pray for them, and perhaps kindly offer suggestions for outfits that are modest but at least reasonably fashionable.
If you, a woman, find skirts impractical, or feel your freedom as a Christian is imposed upon by the “fashion police”, then wear pants. Please use your God-given discernment to choose your clothing wisely.
When I think of the example of the Theotokos, I do not think she would ever tell a woman that she looks like a whore, or is “damned” to hell for wearing pants, or that she is worthy of eternal beatitude for wearing a frumpy dress. I believe that she would love the woman regardless and speak to her “the truth in love”, and strive to live her own life in the Holy Spirit, modelling charity and patience, with the firm conviction that through her prayers and the redemptive work of Christ, the woman would come to the knowledge of the truth.
As for the men out there, please don’t judge the women around you for their fashion choices. You should also be modelling modesty of character and charity. Certainly don’t ogle, and don’t EVER blame the woman for YOUR sin. Strive to look at them as Christ does: as people filled with the soul-sickness of sin, who desperately need the love of God.
Something that helps me in my day to day life is remembering to always strive to see the image of God in people. When I get irritated or impatient, or I begin to judge someone, I try to see God’s image in their soul, and then I find it helps in the battle against sin.
In the end, modesty is like so many things in the Christian life: using discernment to find a middle ground in order to live a peaceful and Christ-centered life.
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