Pants! ...and my pride

[adstrinity]

The Priest today was homilying on the Virgin Martyr and modesty. He said it was on women to remain modest. He mentioned that some priest said that pants were unnatural and this priest (could have been the one he was quoting) said that mini-skirts were more natural than pants. (A mini skirt is work trying to attract a mate, you see…which is natural). It’s not that mini skirt is good or modest, but, pants are more immodest on a woman and more unnatural. He said, “Mini skirts are to fornication what pants are to sodomy.”

This is severe. I am typically the only female who wears pants at Mass, but, I think he meant, regardless, just in general, it is wrong/sinful for a woman to wear pants. He said that a Minor Prophet mentioned that the end of the world would come when women started dressing like men (and he pointed out that this became common in the 1950s).

The priest is FSSP. I am very upset over this, but, if I’m in the wrong… I don’t want to go to Hell because I love pants/jeans/shorts instead of skirts/dresses, and, if they are immodest, and Our Lady said that more people will go to Hell for immodesty than any other reason…

This concerns me.

Do I have reason to be concerned?

Also, how many of the rest of the female Traditionalists here wear pants ever…or at Mass? OR, are you a male Traditionalist who goes to a TLM and see women who go to the Mass there with you and you are upset and disgusted that they wear pants.

 

[stevusmagnus]

I would read “Dressing With Dignity” by Colleen Hammond.

 

[Shin]

I would read “Dressing With Dignity” by Colleen Hammond.

Ditto. Buy this book swiftly and read it.

You should wear a skirt or dress if you are a woman, and not ever pants to mass, or normally. This is because of the blurring of the genders, and because some clothing is particular to each gender, and embodies certain traits of it.

We live in times where it is clear, positively clear that fashion has been abused to the purpose of making men like women and women like men. It is quite visible the blurring of the genders and the abominations of attractions and behavior and culture that has resulted from the cultural corruption that fostered this. And what was a part of that? Simply how people dress.

People pooh pooh it. They say, the movies, the how people dress, it has no real effect. This is not true, this is pride speaking. It has a gigantic effect on people. When one is immersed in the effect, one thinks it is natural – but actually it is the unnatural become accepted, with all its harmful effects. How many unnatural things are now accepted naturally…

To see it how culture could improve by dressing as one’s gender, simply imagine what life would be like if everyone wore the clothes that are appropriate and modest to the genders and it was not culturally accepted to do otherwise, in media, and in life. People would be quite different. Women would be more like women, men would be more like men.

All a very positive benefit!

 

[dove51]

This concerns me.

Do I have reason to be concerned?

I think it’s a topic worth thinking about. And I would second Colleen Hammond’s book. It’s interesting, particularly the chapters on Freemasonry and the occult and their influence on fashion. Reading about that was more convincing than any other modesty argument I’ve heard, probably because I’m pigheaded and don’t like feeling like others’ are trying to control me or my behavior.

Also, how many of the rest of the female Traditionalists here wear pants ever…or at Mass? OR, are you a male Traditionalist who goes to a TLM and see women who go to the Mass there with you and you are upset and disgusted that they wear pants.

I’m not disgusted by women who wear pants at Mass, but I do wonder at whether they’ve ever considered skirts. I just think skirts are prettier.

If you’re asking about me personally, I’ve shied away from wearing pants in public. I do feel that they are more immodest than skirts. (But I wouldn’t be caught dead in a mini-skirt, because I think those look ridiculous no matter how cute someone’s bod ). I still wear pants in the privacy of my home, to exercise (which I mostly do in my own home) and to walk the dogs, but I make sure I wear a long top or coat that comes down low and covers most of my upper legs. I would never wear pants to Mass.

I’m not saying you have to do this, but this is what I do and the direction I’ve moved in since trying to cultivate the virtue of modesty in myself. I never thought I’d be one of those skirt people two years ago, but here I am.

Oh, I found the link from CH’s website that has the snippet from her book. You can read it and see if it’d interest you, if you like.

 

[Cider]

Also, how many of the rest of the female Traditionalists here wear pants ever…or at Mass? OR, are you a male Traditionalist who goes to a TLM and see women who go to the Mass there with you and you are upset and disgusted that they wear pants.

I don’t wear pants to mass, ever. I rarely wear pants in my day to day life. Only if it’s extremely cold and windy, which isn’t very often where I live. I’d say 95% of the time I’m wearing a long dress.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

I don’t understand why women shouldn’t wear pants.

Blurring of the sexes? Come on. Does anyone really believe that?

It’s not as if women say “I’m going to wear pants so I can pretend to be a man.”

 

[Abenadar]

He said it was on women to remain modest. He mentioned that some priest said that pants were unnatural and this priest (could have been the one he was quoting) said that mini-skirts were more natural than pants. (A mini skirt is work trying to attract a mate, you see…which is natural). It’s not that mini skirt is good or modest, but, pants are more immodest on a woman and more unnatural. He said, “Mini skirts are to fornication what pants are to sodomy.”

Modesty is very important, and unfortunately women who wear pants like their clothing to compliment their bodies, or they are simply capitulating to the dictates of modern “fashion” (lol), which says clothing must be as tight and as revealing as possible. Skirts are naturally more suited to women, in my opinion, because they are more modest than pants and are more feminine. Men are visual creatures…the last thing you should want is for them to lust after you because of what you’re wearing. Pants, even if they’re not “skin tight” are usually very, very fitted for women and leave nothing to the imagination. There’s your behind, there are your thighs, etc. etc.

This is severe. I am typically the only female who wears pants at Mass, but, I think he meant, regardless, just in general, it is wrong/sinful for a woman to wear pants.

Just a suggestion; perhaps you should go along with the dress codes of your church, even if they are unwritten. People (men) go to the TLM for a lot of reasons, not least of all to get away from “the world” and immodest dress and behavior of modern women, which is found absolutely everywhere. In general, it is not necessarily sinful to wear pants (i.e. there are situations where pants are more appropriate for certain activities like hiking, biking, mountain climbing, seeing the chiropracter, cause you never know what position he’s going to have to throw you into…), but these are more exceptions than rules. As a rule, I think a woman would like to be treated with the dignity that she deserves, which is more easily accomplished when she is dressed like a lady and not a trollop or even dressed like a boy, or “one of the guys” or whatever.

He said that a Minor Prophet mentioned that the end of the world would come when women started dressing like men (and he pointed out that this became common in the 1950s).

This may be true. I wouldn’t think it’s only about “women dressing like men”, but rather what the larger social trends are, which include women dressing like men. Today the world seems crazy with the breakdown of the family, men acting like children, women looking like street-walkers, pornography and vice everywhere, abortion so commonplace (the majority of the Catholic vote going to a man who is so pro-abortion…). Society is very sick right now, and impurity is probably the most common sin by far. I wouldn’t want to contribute to that.

The priest is FSSP. I am very upset over this, but, if I’m in the wrong… I don’t want to go to Hell because I love pants/jeans/shorts instead of skirts/dresses, and, if they are immodest, and Our Lady said that more people will go to Hell for immodesty than any other reason…

In general women’s fashion is immodest. Sorry. On the other hand I’m a firm believer in dressing for the occasion. My wife always wears dresses or skirts in our day-to-day activities, but when go hiking or when we vacationed in the mountains she wore jeans with a longer top that went down about mid-thigh. Meanwhile, her sister (who has a choleric temperament, and who decided a long time ago NEVER to wear pants ever again) was out hiking with us in a long skirt, going through brush and over fences, which is just plain silly! That time she took “modesty” to the opposite extreme and threw practicality right out the window.

This concerns me.

Good.

Do I have reason to be concerned?

Yes, but don’t worry…Just be humble about it. You may prefer pants, but skirts are more modest for a woman, and if you’re not going to be doing cartwheels, well…Something to consider, at the very least.

I used to like going to the gym and other places with just a fitted ‘wife-beater’ on, or no shirt when I was living in a beach community because I have a great physique and liked the attention. When I realized how immodest it was I stopped doing it. Now I live in the desert, and although I might want to walk around with very little clothing on I have to consider my actions and the possible sins I cause.

Also, how many of the rest of the female Traditionalists here wear pants ever…or at Mass? OR, are you a male Traditionalist who goes to a TLM and see women who go to the Mass there with you and you are upset and disgusted that they wear pants.

All my nieces wear their slinky skin-tight clothing/jeans monday-saturday, but they put on skirts to go to Mass. I know a lot of trad women who wear pants away from church, but not at church. It sort of seems silly to me though…I mean, if it’s not inappropriate for them to wear their attention-grabbing pants at the mall, in the store, or on the street, why is it inappropriate at church? I personally would like to see more women dressing modestly away from church as well and living a modest life all the time, rather than just dressing a certain way in order to go to Mass…

When I see women in pants at Mass I don’t sweat it much. At my church all the ‘regulars’ wear skirts, so that means any pant-wearing females are new. In that case I believe that they’re intelligent enough to be able to look around and see what the other women are doing, and to learn to dress according to the local custom, i.e. knee-length skirts (or longer), high necklines, sleeves, and veils.

 

[Abenadar]

I don’t understand why women shouldn’t wear pants.

It has something to do with modesty and appropriate dress.

Blurring of the sexes? Come on. Does anyone really believe that?

You’d be surprised. Also, if society can prevent women from looking like, and acting like dignified women, and instead gives them the appearance of whores, why shouldn’t men objectify them? If they don’t respect themselves, will men? If they don’t look and act like dignified ladies, will men treat them that way? We all have a responsibility to help save souls from damnation.

It’s not as if women say “I’m going to wear pants so I can pretend to be a man.”

“Pretending to be a man” encompasses a lot of things, including lewd behavior and staring, saying inappropriate and suggestive things, and slobbering. If you have one segment of the population (lewd men) acting like this, and then you add in an equal female segment of the population doing the same thing…All of a sudden you have a lot of sin and immorality. If women maintain a sense of decorum a lot of these animalistic men will realize their error. If women become slobbering animals like some men…well, then you get a lot of sexual immorality and broken homes, abortions etc etc etc.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

** if society can prevent women from looking like, and acting like dignified women, and instead gives them the appearance of whores, why shouldn’t men objectify them? **

Pants = women being whores?



We’re talking about women wearing pants. Not dressing like prostitutes. Not having 20 abortions before they’re 20. Just. Wearing. Pants.

 

[adstrinity]

I don’t wear pants for fashion. I wear pants because I’m 350 pounds or so and it’s more comfortable and less hastle. Even when I wear a dress or skirt (I have few appropriate), I have to wear shorts or something underneath for comfort. I don’t do it so that men may look at me. I’m bi myself and the cute skirts and lowish or form fitting shirts the women wear reminds me to confess lust in Confession. I typically made sure my sufficient (though not ample) boobs aren’t hanging out when I wear a shirt and I do wear a mantilla. I have grown my hair over a yard, probably. I don’t think anybody could mistake me for a man, at least, I hope not.

I don’t have a job at the moment so, getting new wardrobe is out of the question. Especially, though, because, has anybody ever tried to get a dress in my size? Because there’s fat acceptance and fat admiration, these dresses aren’t that modest; I guess they’re going with the, “we can be just as cute as the skinny girls”, look. I did buy a dress earlier this year that was modest (long, 3/4 sleeves, scoop neck), but, it shows off my fat rolls. Pants are much more modest than that one dress. I suppose I could buy a halfway decent dress and pin fabric across the neckline.

I do have another dress. It’s brown and white. It fits well. I don’t want to shave my legs, though, every Saturday or Sunday. Sometimes, I just don’t care, and, I know nobody wants to look at fat, unshaven legs before or after Mass.

If I can, I will check out that book. I will read the snippet of it through the link (thank you).

Again, it’s not for fashion.

I was not aware that so many people were so into skirts only (glad I asked).

As for the unofficial dress code – I find that cliquish. That is so Stepford, I think. I cannot fit into words why that makes me uncomfortable, but, I will try to check out that book.

can prevent women from looking like, and acting like dignified women, and instead gives them the appearance of whores, why shouldn’t men objectify them? If they don’t respect themselves, will men? If they don’t look and act like dignified ladies, will men treat them that way? We all have a responsibility to help save souls from damnation.

This comes across as sounding Muslim extremist.

 

[adstrinity]

can prevent women from looking like, and acting like dignified women, and instead gives them the appearance of whores, why shouldn’t men objectify them? If they don’t respect themselves, will men? If they don’t look and act like dignified ladies, will men treat them that way? We all have a responsibility to help save souls from damnation.

This comes across as sounding Muslim extremist.

 

[Abenadar]

Pants = women being whores?

Instead of rolling your eyes, perhaps you should use them to improve your reading comprehension…Just sayin’.

I didn’t say “pants = women being whores”, thank you very much. I mentioned “the appearance” of being a whore.

We’re talking about women wearing pants. Not dressing like prostitutes.

The two things **often ** coincide, unfortunately.

 

[Abenadar]

This comes across as sounding Muslim extremist.

Which part? This one?

If they don’t look and act like dignified ladies, will men treat them that way?

Or this one?

We all have a responsibility to help save souls from damnation.

I was simply talking about non-Catholic men when I said

why shouldn’t men objectify them? If they don’t respect themselves, will men?

And I meant this: if a girl presents herself as nothing but a piece of meat, is it any surprise that non-Catholic men will turn into dogs? On the other hand, if a girl acts like a lady, then the guy will have no choice but to treat her like one, or go find some other girl who he can objectify.

 

[LilyM]

Piffle. Firstly - very modest women in very muslim countries wear pants! They are loose and flowing pants but pants nonetheless.

Secondly - I wear jeans and slacks often. Not tight-form-fitting jeans and slacks, but fairly loose. I find them comfortable, practical - but not at all masculine. Anyone who would suggest this must believe that a jacket designed for females is also masculine simply because men wear jackets as well.

Thirdly - have you SEEN skirts these days? They are every bit as immodest, generally, as the slacks and trousers on offer.

Was Marilyn Monroe dressed immodestly? You betcha. Did she ever wear slacks in a movie? Not that I can recall. Does Hilary Clinton wear pants? Yep. Does she ever look masculine? Not in my humble opinion.

I rest my case.

 

[Cider]

I don’t wear pants for fashion. I wear pants because I’m 350 pounds or so and it’s more comfortable and less hastle. Even when I wear a dress or skirt (I have few appropriate), I have to wear shorts or something underneath for comfort. I don’t do it so that men may look at me. I’m bi myself and the cute skirts and lowish or form fitting shirts the women wear reminds me to confess lust in Confession. I typically made sure my sufficient (though not ample) boobs aren’t hanging out when I wear a shirt and I do wear a mantilla. I have grown my hair over a yard, probably. I don’t think anybody could mistake me for a man, at least, I hope not.

I don’t have a job at the moment so, getting new wardrobe is out of the question. Especially, though, because, has anybody ever tried to get a dress in my size? Because there’s fat acceptance and fat admiration, these dresses aren’t that modest; I guess they’re going with the, “we can be just as cute as the skinny girls”, look. I did buy a dress earlier this year that was modest (long, 3/4 sleeves, scoop neck), but, it shows off my fat rolls. Pants are much more modest than that one dress. I suppose I could buy a halfway decent dress and pin fabric across the neckline.

I do have another dress. It’s brown and white. It fits well. I don’t want to shave my legs, though, every Saturday or Sunday. Sometimes, I just don’t care, and, I know nobody wants to look at fat, unshaven legs before or after Mass.

If I can, I will check out that book. I will read the snippet of it through the link (thank you).

Again, it’s not for fashion.

I was not aware that so many people were so into skirts only (glad I asked).

As for the unofficial dress code – I find that cliquish. That is so Stepford, I think. I cannot fit into words why that makes me uncomfortable, but, I will try to check out that book.

I’m plus sized myself. Have you checked out www.holyclothing.com ? They carry stuff up to size 7x and have some modest dresses ( not all of their stuff is) along with skirts and tops.

 

[Cider]

Piffle. Firstly - very modest women in very muslim countries wear pants! They are loose and flowing pants but pants nonetheless.

They wear salwar kameez which are are loose fitting pants with a long tunic top. So you aren’t seeing their panty lines for instance. The top covering the hips is actually more important than the loose pants for this outfit.

 

[tcraig]

The Priest today was homilying on the Virgin Martyr and modesty. He said it was on women to remain modest. He mentioned that some priest said that pants were unnatural and this priest (could have been the one he was quoting) said that mini-skirts were more natural than pants. (A mini skirt is work trying to attract a mate, you see…which is natural). It’s not that mini skirt is good or modest, but, pants are more immodest on a woman and more unnatural. He said, “Mini skirts are to fornication what pants are to sodomy.”

This is severe. I am typically the only female who wears pants at Mass, but, I think he meant, regardless, just in general, it is wrong/sinful for a woman to wear pants. He said that a Minor Prophet mentioned that the end of the world would come when women started dressing like men (and he pointed out that this became common in the 1950s).

The priest is FSSP. I am very upset over this, but, if I’m in the wrong… I don’t want to go to Hell because I love pants/jeans/shorts instead of skirts/dresses, and, if they are immodest, and Our Lady said that more people will go to Hell for immodesty than any other reason…

This concerns me.

Do I have reason to be concerned?

Also, how many of the rest of the female Traditionalists here wear pants ever…or at Mass? OR, are you a male Traditionalist who goes to a TLM and see women who go to the Mass there with you and you are upset and disgusted that they wear pants.

If you are unsure you should ask your priest to clarify exactly what he meant, rather than guessing. It’s entirely possible that you missed his overall point.

However, if he is saying that it is wrong/sinful for a woman to wear pants, then that is his personal opinion and is not Church teaching. The Catechism states that we are to dress modestly, but acknowledges that the form taken can vary between cultures.

Additionally, I have attended FSSP parishes in the United States and Europe, and have seen no restrictions on or preaching against pants.

 

[Brenda_V]

They wear salwar kameez which are are loose fitting pants with a long tunic top. So you aren’t seeing their panty lines for instance. The top covering the hips is actually more important than the loose pants for this outfit.

Yes and I have plenty of pants where you can not see the panty line and my shirts don’t come down that far!

Pants are not strictly male attire, nor are skirts/dresses strictly female attire. Our Priests, good and holy men, wear a “dress” only they don’t call it that.

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Some pants on either gender can be immodest. Personally if your pants don’t show any panty line and they are not skin tight and your shirt is long enough to cover your midriff then what is the problem?

I do not agree that the wearing of pants has de-feminized women! Or made the objects, far more likely it is the short skirts and tops that reveal far more than any man except her husband or doctor should see! Pants making women appear to be whores? What next? I should cover my face when going out of the house? Sorry, you can’t mistake me for a man even when my hair is short (which it is) no matter what I am wearing, be it jeans or a dress!

Please OP do not get the book recommended although it has some good points there are others that are way out there!

Brenda V.
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[John_Higgins]

Ah, next we’ll be talking about the Illuminati and the End Times. Goodness.

To the OP, if that particular priest is a regular, hold new auditions.

Best wishes,

John

 

[Shin]

Actually one of the reasons priests wear garb like that is because of their special dignity. It is recognized as an unusual wear, not fitting for the average man, and tending towards what is more fitting for the female, towards that type of garment.

So, it is not a contradiction, but a part of the entire understanding of what is worn by who.