Pants vs. Dresses/Skirts

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Bluegoat, you wrote: “But it gives no information about how much real difficulty actual people have in the type of situation under discussion.”

The main problem triggers mentioned in this thread that I saw so far were the form revealing clothes, and bending over (male or female), and I mentioned fetishes.

If you are thinking of statistics, psychologists, sociologists, and antropologists have tested people to figure out how people are aroused and how their societies work, and found some general factors, but also found specific cultural differences. I’m not sure that would help you much.

Or maybe you mean how intense the desire is? Certainly testosterone is the desire hormone in both men and women and the amounts vary with the person.
 
Bluegoat, you wrote: “But it gives no information about how much real difficulty actual people have in the type of situation under discussion.”

The main problem triggers mentioned in this thread that I saw so far were the form revealing clothes, and bending over (male or female), and I mentioned fetishes.

If you are thinking of statistics, psychologists, sociologists, and antropologists have tested people to figure out how people are aroused and how their societies work, and found some general factors, but also found specific cultural differences. I’m not sure that would help you much.

Or maybe you mean how intense the desire is? Certainly testosterone is the desire hormone in both men and women and the amounts vary with the person.
No, in a way my point was that it is impossible to judge this in a purely objective way. THose advocating pants on women as being too tempting - honestly, for most men or women, this is not a problem. Yes, one might notice a person of the opposite sex is attractive. But that is not in itself a bad thing. The idea that we could somehow get an objective measurement of the most modest clothes that cause the least desire in others is silly. But that is really what we are doing when we try to compare modest pants to modest skirts.

For those who find women in everyday, modest clothes still pose a personal problem, I would suggest to them that they are, unfortunately, especially susceptible. Maybe more hormones than the average person. But if all women were to begin wearing below the knee skirts, they would likely start focusing on ankles or earlobes or something else. The issue is not external, but mainly internal.

Even by complete separation of the sexes, society has never managed to stop people from thinking about sex, even when the people involved are trying to be chaste. Even religious who are cloistered sometimes struggle with this.

Even if we say a skirt is objectivly slightly more covering (which I don’t think is actually true) modest pants are - modest. We aren’t required to somehow go beyond modesty to - what???
 
The argument against pants is for the most part two-fold, one of gender blurring, and one of temptation. And modesty is more than that which does not tempt, it is a part of avoiding the above and more.

Simply because there are pants that can be less immodest than other pants does not make pants in fact, modest for women truly, ever. Someone uses the term ‘modest pants’, but that is only relative to something even more immodest, they aren’t truly.

Yes you can get objective measurements and standards as to what clothing is tempting, immodest, gender inappropriate, or not, that has always been the case for the Church, and for people in general. It is not all relative.

People react to the immodest… then like frogs in ever growing hot water, they do not because they are immersed in it and have lost a sense of shame. That is the main reason it appears relative to some.

Right now we live in a culture where people are raised with as little sense of shame about clothing as possible. There are not formal standards, and people look very different in how they dress and behave than in other times.

If I look at pictures of how children were dressed a little while ago, they looked like little young men and ladies, they were not immodestly dressed at all.

Now clothing is not made for modesty but for simple ease of wear and for attracting attention, the opposite of modesty.

And so, from childhood to adulthood we are today soaked in immodesty and have not the proper sense of shame for it. If we did, then we could more easily individually perceive the standard that the dress of a certain length, etc. provides.

That we do not, we should not take as moral license to dress badly, simply because of our malformed feelings about the matter. That is what conversion is for. We learn the truth and we change our feelings, we do not apply our feelings to change the truth.

People who are more degenerate than others, cannot be as excited by what would normally excite them if they were modest and restrained. The more a pleasure seeker you are, the more pleasure you need to be aroused generally. Like drugs, the more you have the more you need to get high.

So, the arguments against modesty based on some people being possibly hypersensitive are mostly flawed. Yes there are such people, but in fact what is normal right now is insensitivity towards a good deal of what is in a lesser way immodest – because we live in an immodest culture and are soaked in it from birth onwards.

So, if men sometimes are not attracted to or ignore women who dress like prostitutes did in the past, but is everyday now – does not mean the women are not dressing immodestly (however unconsciously). It means these men are of the group that is very used to immodesty, and have not yet practiced enough modesty in their own selves to realize what is immodest or modest.

If everyone is going around in bikinis and someone wears a full swimsuit, this isn’t really more modest, it’s just slightly less immodest. That men who do not practice chastity are more likely to react to the bikini than other men is simply a sign of their degeneration, not the modesty of a full swimsuit.

But men in general will not be troubled by a modestly dressed woman in loose clothing that has a skirt below the knees. Then truly, if they have troubles it is particular to them as individuals and more exceptional temptation.
 
The church doesn’t say that exterior modesty is objective or that it can be objectivly measured.

from CCC, bolding is mine:
The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.
There is also a question in the apologists section about women wearing pants and it’s gender connotations, specifically with reference to women “trying to appear as men”. The answer the apologist gives is this, again, the bolding is mine:
Since clothing itself is a morally neutral object that cannot, in itself, be an abomination for someone to wear, the author must have something different in mind for the moral command. It is apparent that the author is admonishing women not to pass themselves off as men, such as by wearing clothing specifically made for men. In the same way, men are not to pass themselves off as women. It is indeed true that the moral admonition for a woman not to illegitimately pass herself off to others as a man remains true, and vice versa. Transgenderism, for example, is considered the disordered desire of a person to dress like someone of the opposite sex or to change his or her gender-specific physical attributes in order to be believed by others to be a member of the opposite sex.
In ancient cultures clothing was much more gender-specific than it is today. By the cut of the clothing, the materials with which it was made, and the adornments used, men and women indicated to their society their gender. In modern society, clothing is much more gender-neutral, especially for women. For example, a woman wearing jeans and boots can still be easily understood to be a woman. This means that the command for women to avoid certain clothing, because by its nature it was based on transitory custom, is a legal command done away with by Christ.
In short, yes, you can wear your t-shirt, sweatpants, and boots. If it is obvious that a woman is wearing them, it does not matter where she purchased them.
 
Bluegoat, you wrote: “No, in a way my point was that it is impossible to judge this in a purely objective way. THose advocating pants on women as being too tempting - honestly, for most men or women, this is not a problem.”

It was in the 1920s especialy 1927 that the short skirt (it was at the knee) for women made a debut. Also trousers for home and beach wear only. Shocking 1922 tennis skirt of Suzanne Lenglen and Alice Marble’s white shorts in 1932. And then by mid 1930s women’s pants (in US) were more common. Then in 1946 the first (thong) bikini from France was created (but the designer had to get a nude dancer to show it off). But it was not until the late 1960s that the pants and skirts were interchangeble for women.

The way we dress and deport ourselves is a safeguard against sin (for ourselves and others) and is not an absolute preventitive measure. There is a wide basis, to the instruction for men and women to dress based upon the qualities of their sex, given in Deuteronomy, and in the New Testament.

I posted most of the following comments on the bikini thread, but it pertains to pants vs. dresses/skirts too. The answer to what is modest is not absolute nor independent of culture, but still is universal in application.

Condensing from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (2521-2523), modesty protects the intimate center of the person and the mystery of persons and their love. Modesty achieves the purposes of:
  • dignity and unity of people
  • lowering the risk of unhealthy curiosity
  • resistance to the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies
  • protesting of voyeuristic explorations
  • expressing the spiritual dignity proper to mankind.
So we can say, conversly, that immodesty achieves these goals:
  • lack of dignity and unity of people
  • increasing the risk of unhealthy curioity
  • giving in to allurement of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies
  • celebrating voyeuristic explorations
  • expressing a lack of respect or reverance for the souls of mankind
 
Good evening!

I was first introduced to the idea that to be modest a woman must wear a skirt or dress by the independent fundamental baptist church. When I began to read the scriptures and looked at history, I found that this seems to be the acceptable way. Much to my shock, there is chism (is that what you call it?) within the Catholic Church wear skirts/dresses only. What are your thoughts on this?

I have also found some interesting articles on this topic, one from Fatima and one in regard to Padre Pio.

God bless,
JOL
There is no ‘schism’ in the church with regard to the above. Schism has to do with accepting the Church as the true Church of Christ and that the servants of the Church (priests and bishops) are successors to the apostles. When they or others break away or separate themselves from the true Church for some reason, it is said that they are in schism. Clothing is more of a cultural thing. The Church has always encouraged modesty in dress in manner.
 
A lot of questions here - perhaps some just wanting to clarify “Marylike” dress.

First - I’m furious at hearing about the Press for reporting so inaccurately about women’s headdress - and never taking it back. While I KNEW I’d never heard any such announcement in Church, I’d been absent alot from Mass then anyway, so I wondered if I’d missed something. THIS PRESS INACCURACY - should be publicly retracted in the Press by Catholics everywhere - if we have to pay out of our own pockets !

Second, I’d heard of Padre Pio telling people to come back (to his confessional) when they were ready to make a good confession or perhaps scolding women about their mode of dress. It’s been awhile, so my recollection isn’t exact. But, eight inches below the knee for a skirt? I don’t think I’d heard that about Padre Pio - but I wouldn’t deny it either.

So, consider this - we have a pamphlet - in existence for years (since late 40s or eary 50’s - and having an “Imprimatur” - timed perhaps, before / during Pope Pius XII’s reign which lists the dictates for women for “Marylike” dress. It says women may wear (1) shorts that go below the knee; (2) pants that are not tight (and I’m not sure if that’s just for sporting-type activities); and (3) the length of skirts below/covering the knee - but not giving an eight-inch dictate.

Somebody, help me here ! I believe strongly in Fatima and Our Lady’s promises and warnings. How many women (even in Traditional parishes) don’t follow perhaps even the Marylike Standards pamphlet guidelines - but are not refused the Sacraments? I’m not finger-pointing or criticizing – I’m asking how are we to make the decision? Padre Pio wouldn’t lie. Surely, Our Lady’s words warn us and are truth - could that indicate that many women’s souls (considered to be good/holy) didn’t get saved by wearing less than eight-inch lengths? :confused:
 
ConservativeOne, as you mentioned there are various sources of guidelines, but just one that is very specific from Pope Pius XI, in 1930, reiterated by Pope Pius XII in 1956. True Blessed Padre Pio (1887-1968) was very vocal about modesty. Also the headcovering rule changed in 1983 with the new Canon of the Catholic Church, but I still see the Mantilla. Mainly I think we have to develop our consciences to determine what to do, in conjunction with tradition and specific guidance from a priest, and prayers, and observing peoples reaction to us. (The poor children today, have such bad examples to contend with.)

Pope Pius XII stated in an Address to the Congress of the Latin Union of High Fashion, Nov. 8, 1957 (Source: “Moral Problems in Fashion Design”, The Pope Speaks, Vol 4, No. 3, see pp. 273-285.):

“Yet no matter how broad and changeable the relative morals of styles may be, there is always an absolute norm to be kept after having heard the admonition of conscience warning against approaching danger: style must never be a proximate occasion of sin.”

Also he said: “Every restoration of decency to style must, therefore, begin with the intention of those who design and those who wear. In both there must be an awakening of responsibility as to their responsibility for the tragic consequences that could result from clothing especially if it is worn in public.”
 
Be careful wearing miniskirts and such. They’re fine, but they are not to be used in conveying sexual messages. This can cause harm to you and those around you.
 
Be careful wearing miniskirts and such. They’re fine, but they are not to be used in conveying sexual messages. This can cause harm to you and those around you.
Miniskirts are designed to convey a sexual message and they may not be sending the message the wearer intends.:eek:
 
If I look at pictures of how children were dressed a little while ago, they looked like little young men and ladies, they were not immodestly dressed at all.
I completely agree with this. In fact it’s in old family photos and illustrations in older books where women actually look classy and fashionable. When I go clothes shopping I always keep these ideas in my mind.

It seems that kids today (and I know this sounds like a good-old-days speech, but I’m 17 and many would call me a kid) idolize other kids instead of adults. (such as disney channel stars, high schoolers etc). And adults only reinforce this by trying to look younger (skin serums to get rid of wrinkles, fake tans, following weird pre-teen trends…)

I’ve thought a lot about this over the years!! Wondering if anybody else feels this way
 
I completely agree with this. In fact it’s in old family photos and illustrations in older books where women actually look classy and fashionable. When I go clothes shopping I always keep these ideas in my mind.

It seems that kids today (and I know this sounds like a good-old-days speech, but I’m 17 and many would call me a kid) idolize other kids instead of adults. (such as disney channel stars, high schoolers etc). And adults only reinforce this by trying to look younger (skin serums to get rid of wrinkles, fake tans, following weird pre-teen trends…)

I’ve thought a lot about this over the years!! Wondering if anybody else feels this way
There is an interesting book which suggests our society tends to create peer attached as opposed to parent or family attached kids. There are a variety of reasons he thinks it happens - if I think about it I may remember the name of the book.

As for looking at clothing from the past and it looking classy. Well, I would ask which paer of the past you mean? Pre WWI? The 1950’s? Or there were the flappers, who were considered scandalous. Or you could go back really far - say to the days before Europeans came to NA? Or the Romans?
 
ljubim, you wrote: “It seems that kids today … idolize other kids instead of adults. … Wondering if anybody else feels this way”

Steven Mintz wrote his opinion that the youth culture started in 1950, I think. The book (pub in 2006) is called “Huck’s Raft: A History of American Childhood”.

My personal opinion is that the youth culture, accompanied with immodesty and a change in sexual behavior, began in the 1920s along with the change in dress in 1926-1928 in particular, and shortly followed with the Anglican Church approval of (limited) birth control, in 1930. The next big landmark change to me is the 1970 birth control pill followed shortly with “hot pants” of 1971. This is when divorce started skyrocketing. I lived through that era, and my mother through the “flapper” era, so I have heard her talk of that time a little. The “flappers”, 1926, refers to both the “fledgling” young girl, and the wearing the unbuttoned galoshes, causing a flap when walking. The fashion was:
  1. short sleek hair
  2. shorter than average straight shift dress (knee or slightly above)
  3. a flat chest
  4. make up publically applied
  5. exposed limbs
  6. stockings rolled over a garter belt
  7. expressing the ideal of a reckless Jazz Age rebel, including, drinking, smoking cigarettes (using a long cigarette holder), and casual sex. Dances were charleston, black bottom, shimmy.
 
There is an interesting book which suggests our society tends to create peer attached as opposed to parent or family attached kids. There are a variety of reasons he thinks it happens - if I think about it I may remember the name of the book.

As for looking at clothing from the past and it looking classy. Well, I would ask which paer of the past you mean? Pre WWI? The 1950’s? Or there were the flappers, who were considered scandalous. Or you could go back really far - say to the days before Europeans came to NA? Or the Romans?
Not that far 😉 More like some of the 30s… but for the large part 40s and 50s. Such as more emphasis on jackets, coats and hats, and knee length dresses and skirts or longer. Definitely not the flappers 😃

A bunch of the pictures I wish I could show you guys were actually in an old illustrated book “My Catholic Faith” (by Louis LaRavoire Morrow) that I always read for hours when I go to my grandma’s. All of the women in the pictures above the lessons wore really beautiful dresses with belts or sashes around the middle, and one with a peacoat and a big crucifix necklace on top. The pictures really left an impression on me! Imagine the 2009 version of My Catholic Faith… everybody in flip flops, tight tshirts and torn-up jeans:eek:

Also thanks for the info on the “youth culture” book Vico. I’m glad I’m not the only one who is sick of this.🙂
 
I was raised that I could wear either dresses/skirts or pants to Mass. Also no heading coverings were required too. At least I had a choice on my attire as long as it wasn’t dirty, revealing, or tight. I prefer to wear pants with a nice shirt or sweater to Mass. I only wear a dress or skirt for special occasions, or if the weather is hot outside.

My 2 female cousins on the other hand, their mother (my mom’s sister) was more strict on their mass attire. No pants/slacks at all. They had to wear dresses or nice shirt/blouse or sweater with a skirt. They weren’t required to cover their hair. Out of habit to this day as adults, my 2 cousins still wear dresses or skirts to Mass. So does their mother and grandmother.

I would prefer that churches want people to show some respect for Mass with people with them not wearing track suit stuff, blue jeans, tee shirts, jogging outfits, clothing showing a great deal of cleavage on women, etc.

My mother was raised in the era of pre Vatican II where it was head coverings and dresses/skirts for females for Mass. My mother was a tomboy type who hated dresses and skirts as it was the norm for females for school, work, and church not to wear any pants/slacks. Today, she will NOT wear a dress or a skirt, and she owns only 1 or 2 skirts and 1 dress that collect dust. My mother wears only nice shirts or sweaters with pants to Mass, and no one complains.
 
MissRose73, it is interesting how the generations have changed their ideas on dress. You said “and no one complains” which does not prove it is modest. No complaint could be because 1) embarassment 2) not wanting to detract 3) they don’t know any better 4) they have learned to not look 5) they like it and it scandalizes them or 6) fear of an angry response.

You mentioned “clothing showing a great deal of cleavage on women”. Church guidelines have been neckline above or at 2" below collar bone: that is no cleavage at all. Did you notice that some people at church do not dress as modestly as a work dress standard, that is, to not show shoulders or any cleavage, and skirt to the knees?
 
MissRose73, it is interesting how the generations have changed their ideas on dress. You said “and no one complains” which does not prove it is modest. No complaint could be because 1) embarassment 2) not wanting to detract 3) they don’t know any better 4) they have learned to not look 5) they like it and it scandalizes them or 6) fear of an angry response.

You mentioned “clothing showing a great deal of cleavage on women”. Church guidelines have been neckline above or at 2" below collar bone: that is no cleavage at all. Did you notice that some people at church do not dress as modestly as a work dress standard, that is, to not show shoulders or any cleavage, and skirt to the knees?
I have to say, I have never seen a work dress standard here in NA that precluded shoulders except in food service, where the issues had nothing to do with modesty or professionalism. (I am sure there are some religious institutions that it would happen in, but generally speaking.) Even in a conservative office where women wear suits all the time, they often wear shells under them in hotter months, and it isn’t considered weird when they take off their jackets.
 
Bluegoat, especially in the 90s there has been a move to business casual. Even some business casual codes disallow bare shoulders. The professional look, for executive, accounting, finance, and other conservative areas, and for job interviews, is to wear a jacket and keep the arms covered, both male and female (and skirts for women, not pants-suits). Truly it would not be weird, as you said, to see bare shoulders when the jacket comes off, it could still be breaking the unenforced written, or unwritten, dress code.

I have read US company dress codes (at least three) that disallow bare shoulders. Of course no bare shoulders for men either.
 
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