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SwizzleStick
Guest
Oops, my link above doesn’t work, probably because I added the colon at the end and forgot the space. I’ll try again, the link below should now work.
catholicplanet.com/bio.htm
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catholicplanet.com/bio.htm
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RosaryCrusader
Guest
You’re having knee jerk reaction based upon pure emotionalism to what I said. Go back and read what I wrote. I made a distinction to types of men - believers and nonbelievers. You may be so naive to think that your fellow coworkers, schoolmates what have you are all nice upstanding men - and they may be - but being a Christian male I see the other side and am often put in the position of having to ignore or downplay nonstop sexual comments by fellow male coworkers, friends, & acquaintances concerning female associates, women walking casually by the road, etc. etc. I kid you not, whether in the field, in the office whatever - my fellow males have nothing but sex on their mind day in and day out. And I will be the first to admit that in my Godless days I was the same.
They say the average male thinks of sex every few minutes - I can attest that it’s true - without grace. Why is that? For one, our culture. Every commercial, every billboard, every magazine at the checkout, the television, the radio, the fashions - they all use sex to sell. With the grace of God this is overcome: custody of the eyes is practiced, prayer is practiced. You learn to pray for those who are so open to jog down the road with next to nothing on causing an occassion of sin for every man who does that doubletake.
When I say that nonbelieving men are beasts there’s really no other way to describe it. A beast has no control over it’s passions - nor does the nonbelieving male over his imagination - he’ll look and stare, make vulgar sexual comments when a woman passes by, he’ll look at pornography etc. etc. I never said they had no control over their actions - of course they do - but they lack the Grace and therefore the will to see things for what they are; temptations to be rejected and not consented to. At the end of the day many males will race off to go clubbing and ‘hook up’ - they’ll go to bars, they’ll go home to their cohabitating girlfriends and have absolutely no problem leaving them over a trifle to find new meat.
It’s tough being a Christian male in today’s society where we feel the brunt of the sexual inundation in our culture and unfortunately our fellow Christian females aren’t in any hurry to help ease the warfare that a male must wage everyday in our era of decadent fashions sexual inundation.
What are you going to do to help out?
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RosaryCrusader
Guest
Read my response above - evern in my original post I never stated a man does not have control over his passions.
I can generalize because first of all I’m male - second of all I’m behind enemy lines and get to hear all the “good” stuff behind females backs - see all the stares, hear all the stories and comments etc… Everyday!
It’s sad that women think men are the same as women but with bigger muscles and shorter hair. We’re hard wired differently - we have different physiology and psychological processes. We react to stimuli differently.
Men do not think like women.
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RosaryCrusader
Guest
You ought to just come out and be truthful about it. It doesn’t matter if this gentleman is clergy,hierarchy or not - if he was you would just ignore him on the grounds that he’s not speaking infallibly.
Keep things truthful…
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adstrinity
Guest
ROFLOLOLOL!!! Treat them as the animals they are now knowing that I don’t have to view them as humans.
And, again, we, the crotch staring women of this forum (and, we know there are more out there, those who AREN’T Catholic and therefore, give into their lusts even more), ask you, what measures are YOU taking so that we do not stare and wonder? You gotta help us out a little. Do we women need to start dressing all you men? According to Colleen Hammond, we have an inordinant interest in clothes. Maybe we should lay out skirts and flowy tunics for all men to wear so as not to give us scandal. I mean, it IS our salvation we’re talking about.
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RosaryCrusader
Guest
I’m glad you take your responsibility so seriously. You are full of bad will and there is no further need to continue waste time here.
But one last question:
How many women here are, or ever have been, sexually stimulated by seeing a man jog by in speedos?
Then ask a man the same question seeing a women in speedos and compare the difference.
T
Tamsulosin
Guest
There is a lot of nonsense here in this thread.
God did not say(as far as I know,) use skirts women or I will get offended .Or men must use pants.
Not even Jesus used pants.
I think that stating falsehoods about God is a sin,as well as assuming what his feelings are .This is very serious disrespect.Who are we to talk in his name.
Humans invented skirts and pants and attached sexual connotations to each.Not God. God made us nude.
I think women and men must dress with modesty.
With the knowledge that modesty is not to attract attention to your body,each of us make
our decision.A red skirt may draw the eye far more than a brown ,loose pair of slacks.
I use and like both dresses and slacks.
God did not say(as far as I know,) use skirts women or I will get offended .Or men must use pants.
Not even Jesus used pants.
I think that stating falsehoods about God is a sin,as well as assuming what his feelings are .This is very serious disrespect.Who are we to talk in his name.
Humans invented skirts and pants and attached sexual connotations to each.Not God. God made us nude.
I think women and men must dress with modesty.
With the knowledge that modesty is not to attract attention to your body,each of us make
our decision.A red skirt may draw the eye far more than a brown ,loose pair of slacks.
I use and like both dresses and slacks.
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SwizzleStick
Guest
There is no reason for you to be antagonistic. I have been truthful. After all, I am still considering YOUR opinion as a man, as I indicated in my post below. But, I know that Mr. Conte has been wrong before (Hillary was not elected President in 2008), so I do consider that he might be wrong here as well, even if others choose to view him as an authority. My guide is Holy Mother Church and I’m still trying to figure out exactly what Her stand is on the matter.
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Elfgirl
Guest
You did though. You said a man is an animal, and that he has no “bridle” on his passions, and that he is a beast. Animals have no control over their passions. Therefore, if men are animals, they have no control. The only differentiation you made between Christian and non-Christians is that you said the Christian man is a beast wearing a muzzle so he can be controlled by God.
Some of my wording may be a bit emotional, but all I did was follow your arguement to it’s logical conclusion. Yeah, it makes me a bit upset to hear someone say that any human, male or female, is just an animal.
I went to high school at a place where the administration kind of thought like that. The dress code imposed on the women was crazy, and got more so every year. It went so far that by the time I was a senior, the women were not allowed to carry their backbacks with both straps on their shoulders. The men had a MUCH freer dress code, and were not forced to strain their backs.
You want to know what happens when those in charge actually do consider men to be animals? Look at the Muslim countries. All they do is opperate under the premise that you have espoused in your original post, and take it to it’s logical conclusion.
What am I doing to help? I dress modestly, and treat the men around me as humans, not animals.
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adstrinity
Guest
RosaryCrusader, I am not full of bad will, I am, however, rather proud and defensive when I am told that if I really loved God, I wouldn’t wear pants.
I am full of logic when I am told women must wear skirts because men cannot help it but, men wont return the common curtousy when they have knowledge of women checking them out.
I am full of suspicion when people reference what they think Saints, the Church, and Apparitions, must mean, when there is no concrete proof.
However, I will say this, and I mean it very much. My bills are such that I don’t know if I’ll even have any money left in the bank when I’m done paying them (I am unemployed). If anybody wants to buy me a dress, at least for Mass, I will give them the dress I want and my information so that I will wear it to Mass. I’m not joking. If you are willing to pay for a dress for me, I will wear it so that men can participate in the Mass. The dress I want is roughly $30.
I am full of logic when I am told women must wear skirts because men cannot help it but, men wont return the common curtousy when they have knowledge of women checking them out.
I am full of suspicion when people reference what they think Saints, the Church, and Apparitions, must mean, when there is no concrete proof.
However, I will say this, and I mean it very much. My bills are such that I don’t know if I’ll even have any money left in the bank when I’m done paying them (I am unemployed). If anybody wants to buy me a dress, at least for Mass, I will give them the dress I want and my information so that I will wear it to Mass. I’m not joking. If you are willing to pay for a dress for me, I will wear it so that men can participate in the Mass. The dress I want is roughly $30.
J
JOL
Guest
I sure hope no one takes offense in what I am about to say, if you do, I apologize in advance.
I think part of the problem as to why we can’t have a honest conversation about this is because people who don’t want to give up pants already have their minds made up and could care less what documentation can be brought to them. It wouldn’t matter. People who are debating the issue already know what it is like to wear pants, and so, are seeking out information from others who have made the change to wearing dresses/skirts only.
We know that pants were not worn in America by women until the early 1900’s. Why did women start wearing pants? How has morality declined since women started wearing pants?
Another issue is the inability for people to recognize that there are definite differences between men and women, our hormones and thought processes. You have to be honest enough to admit that the porn industry would be bankrupt if it wasn’t for men. Honestly. Yes, I am sure there are women out there that watch porn to, but I seriously doubt the number of women comes even close to the number of men who watch and support that industry.
Makes me think back to when my dad started talking to me about sex and telling me that boys say “if you loved me you would have sex with me.” Women need to feel love (i.e., emotional creature) whereas, men are visual and physical. From the earliest times boys know what the girl needs else he wouldn’t say these things to try to get the girl to have sex. So, what RosaryCrusader says about men, I have no choice but to believe it.
Sure, a woman may look at the crotch of a man in jeans. But I seriously doubt a play by play of what ‘could’ happen goes through her mind. I can easily see a play by play going through the mind of men. Men objectify women. How many women objectify men? Not saying it doesn’t happen, but I doubt it happens to the extent that men do it.
And saying these things isn’t a put down to the other sex. It is an honest observation that men and women ARE in fact, different.
There is a woman who runs a website, she is not catholic, but speaks alot of modesty. If you care to check her out, google “mom of 9’s place”.
I think part of the problem as to why we can’t have a honest conversation about this is because people who don’t want to give up pants already have their minds made up and could care less what documentation can be brought to them. It wouldn’t matter. People who are debating the issue already know what it is like to wear pants, and so, are seeking out information from others who have made the change to wearing dresses/skirts only.
We know that pants were not worn in America by women until the early 1900’s. Why did women start wearing pants? How has morality declined since women started wearing pants?
Another issue is the inability for people to recognize that there are definite differences between men and women, our hormones and thought processes. You have to be honest enough to admit that the porn industry would be bankrupt if it wasn’t for men. Honestly. Yes, I am sure there are women out there that watch porn to, but I seriously doubt the number of women comes even close to the number of men who watch and support that industry.
Makes me think back to when my dad started talking to me about sex and telling me that boys say “if you loved me you would have sex with me.” Women need to feel love (i.e., emotional creature) whereas, men are visual and physical. From the earliest times boys know what the girl needs else he wouldn’t say these things to try to get the girl to have sex. So, what RosaryCrusader says about men, I have no choice but to believe it.
Sure, a woman may look at the crotch of a man in jeans. But I seriously doubt a play by play of what ‘could’ happen goes through her mind. I can easily see a play by play going through the mind of men. Men objectify women. How many women objectify men? Not saying it doesn’t happen, but I doubt it happens to the extent that men do it.
And saying these things isn’t a put down to the other sex. It is an honest observation that men and women ARE in fact, different.
There is a woman who runs a website, she is not catholic, but speaks alot of modesty. If you care to check her out, google “mom of 9’s place”.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
In other words: “*I *will not change my mind because I am right. You will not change your mind because you are stubbornly wed to your mistake and so have already made your mind up.” Accept my apologies, but this is malarkey.
Have you considered that maybe it wasn’t the pants? Maybe it was because they gave us the vote. That probably caused both the immorality and the thing with the pants.
Two World Wars and how many other dehumanizing atrocities since 1900, and yet the thing we point to as the cause of moral decline is pants on women?
Could we then thank pants on women for the abolition of Jim Crow laws, then? Putting us on the moon? How about the drop in infant and maternal mortality? I mean, there is just as much correlation.
There are rules for establishing cause and effect. Correlation does not prove causation. I also know a thing or two about what are the biological differences between men and women. I know this because I got an education in the hard sciences, something that I could never have done in 1900, since I am quite sure I did not have the one father in 10,000 who would have allowed it. So forgive me if I’m not all that nostalgic for the good old days when femininity gained us the dignified treatment among men that we deserve as co-heirs and daughters of the Lord.
And then I go to this website and read that God is more offended at women who wear pants than women who wear revealing skirts. This is patent nonsense, just made up, with no basis whatsoever in Church teaching. IMO, it does not belong on a Catholic web site.
I don’t want to dress like a man or draw men into sin, but anybody who tells me that the Catholic faith teaches that this means I must not wear pants in public is, whether they know it or not, lying to me. That I refuse to believe this lie does not make me either close-minded or a bad Catholic, and I am not going to sit still and let somebody imply otherwise, apologetically or not.
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JOL
Guest
Here is an article from a non-catholic source which I think states the differences between men and women that RosaryCrusader was stating.
insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6346&Itemid=100
Also, another site, www.catholicmodesty.com will point you in the direction of what the Saints, Church and Scripture has said on the topic.
insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6346&Itemid=100
Also, another site, www.catholicmodesty.com will point you in the direction of what the Saints, Church and Scripture has said on the topic.
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RosaryCrusader
Guest
I’m sorry Swizzle… it’s pretty common on here for people to disregard those whom they disagree with on the grounds that they are not clergy - then when clergy are brought up they disregard them because they are not saints, then you quote saints and they say they are not infallible, then you quote the Pope but then it’s disregarded because it’s antiquated or someone claims it’s not infallible.
I’m sure you’ve seen it on here before…Again I’m sorry.
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adstrinity
Guest
The reason, I think, we cannot have an honest conversation about this is because there has been no documentation saying pants wearing women will burn in Hell, no matter how much some would like to spin it that way. We, the pants wearing women, have defended our position time and again, and it is falling on deaf and proud ears.
Also, this isn’t always about America. As provided prior, pants are not new to women. We, as a matter of fact, have pointed out St. Joan of Arc and women of other cultures.
And, IF another man came out saying RosaryCrusader was wrong, and that he does not agree? Would that man be a liar? …Of course this IS hypothetical.
Just because a woman does it less, doesn’t mean it’s any more right. I have looked and thought. I have thought a LOT about it in various degrees. Ultimately, though, though I think about it, it falls apart when I realize that the man I’m thinking about isn’t my husband, and, probably isn’t even Catholic.
Great, men and women are different. So what? We can give birth AND wear pants. We are just that rockin’!
Again, my offer still stands. I will give one the address to mail me the dress if one really is offended by me wearing pants to Mass. Really. I have it all picked out and everything. It’s from holyclothing.com. Does anybody want to buy me a dress?
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adstrinity
Guest
Alright, this is what I have received from various private messages. Two of these were from skirt wearing women.
adstrinity: But Pope St. Nicholas, in writing to the King of Bulgaria in 800-and-something AD, had this to say (bolding mine):
Quote:
We consider what you asked about pants (femoralia) to be irrelevant; for we do not wish the exterior style of your clothing to be changed, but rather the behavior of the inner man within you, nor do we desire to know what you are wearing except Christ — for however many of you have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ [Gal. 3:27] — but rather how you are progressing in faith and good works. But since you ask concerning these matters in your simplicity, namely because you were afraid lest it be held against you as a sin, if you diverge in the slightest way from the custom of other Christians, and lest we seem to take anything away from your desire, we declare that in our books, pants (femoralia) are ordered to be made, not in order that women may use them, but that men may. But act now so that, just as you passed from the old to the new man, [cf. Eph. 4:22-24; Col. 3:9-10] you pass from your prior custom to ours in all things; but really do what you please. For whether you or your women wear or do not wear pants (femoralia) neither impedes your salvation nor leads to any increase of your virtue.
In the opening sentence, where he says the issue is irrelevant, the original Latin word is supervacuum, which basically means unnecessary… not worth worrying about."
That being said, p.m. me if you want to buy me a dress. I am not kidding.
- "So, when you wear pants, does it qualify you for Hell?
adstrinity: But Pope St. Nicholas, in writing to the King of Bulgaria in 800-and-something AD, had this to say (bolding mine):
Quote:
We consider what you asked about pants (femoralia) to be irrelevant; for we do not wish the exterior style of your clothing to be changed, but rather the behavior of the inner man within you, nor do we desire to know what you are wearing except Christ — for however many of you have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ [Gal. 3:27] — but rather how you are progressing in faith and good works. But since you ask concerning these matters in your simplicity, namely because you were afraid lest it be held against you as a sin, if you diverge in the slightest way from the custom of other Christians, and lest we seem to take anything away from your desire, we declare that in our books, pants (femoralia) are ordered to be made, not in order that women may use them, but that men may. But act now so that, just as you passed from the old to the new man, [cf. Eph. 4:22-24; Col. 3:9-10] you pass from your prior custom to ours in all things; but really do what you please. For whether you or your women wear or do not wear pants (femoralia) neither impedes your salvation nor leads to any increase of your virtue.
In the opening sentence, where he says the issue is irrelevant, the original Latin word is supervacuum, which basically means unnecessary… not worth worrying about."
- "Papal Masses are very large and cover the gamut of range of clothing worn in all parts of the world. Also, not everyone is Catholic, some are there simply as tourists and are wearing whatever they were site seeing in. However, visiting the Vatican does require a minimum dress code of covered legs to the knees, covered shoulders, covered mid-riffs. That being said, I think Europeans wear skirts everyday more than Americans.
- " The Church has nothing against women wearing pants. If you visit the Vatican there are signs everywhere that tell you what you may and may not wear in St. Peter’s Basilica. Long pants are allowed, even for mass when the pope celebrates. In many cultures, especially Eastern cultures, women have worn pants for centuries. They did not stop wearing them when they became Christians. Go back, if you can, and review some of the pope’s open air masses where there are people from different cultures bringing up the gifts or young people. Many are wearing very nice pants with a nice top."
That being said, p.m. me if you want to buy me a dress. I am not kidding.
M
Musicadmirer
Guest
I am a good chaste woman, and I exclusively wear pants. Why? Because at my current size, I would not feel comfortable in skirts and dresses. And for those women who would look good wearing anything, and choose to wear pants most of the time, it’s their business. It doesn’t mean you are denying your sex or that you are rebelling against God when you do.
There are times in life when it would never be practical to wear a skirt, and for anyone to say or to indirectly suggest that women wearing pants equals sin has another thing coming.
You can be unchastely dressed in anything, but from the perspective of a young adult from California, I’ve seen MANY girls and women dressed (or dressed with lack of cloth, rather) in things that are supposed to be dresses and skirts.
Men and women need to be working towards fostering self esteem in one another, instead of cutting each other down.
There are times in life when it would never be practical to wear a skirt, and for anyone to say or to indirectly suggest that women wearing pants equals sin has another thing coming.
You can be unchastely dressed in anything, but from the perspective of a young adult from California, I’ve seen MANY girls and women dressed (or dressed with lack of cloth, rather) in things that are supposed to be dresses and skirts.
Men and women need to be working towards fostering self esteem in one another, instead of cutting each other down.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
A lot about modesty, not a lot about pants.
I did run across this one, by Padre Pio: "“The Church is the house of God. It is forbidden for men to enter with bare arms or in shorts. It is forbidden for women to enter in trousers, without a veil on their head, in short clothing, low necklines, sleeveless or immodest dresses.”
He was talking about attire in church, not in the world at large, and at a time when women were also required to wear a headcovering, which is no longer required. It does not make sense to interpret the quote to mean that he was talking about a universal standard, rather than one for churches and chapels. As pointed out in other posts, the Holy See has recognized a difference in usage in different places and times. Otherwise, we’d all better start dressing like the statues in church.
I don’t think anyone here is trying to defend mini-skirts or showing off one’s cleavage. The thread is about pants, with some side discussion about how much a woman can be expected to do in the face of men who can look into thin air and be reminded of sex. Modesty keeps the honest ones honest, and that is no small thing! Of course modesty is important! As for the rest, the ones whose lust will always find some excuse, we do what we can and leave the rest to grace. “What we can”, though, does not mean cloistering ourselves entirely, our lovely and unmistakably female voices included, because that is what it would take. It means we make a reasonable effort which, with a reasonable effort made in return, will be sufficient. It is a big job. It takes two.
Ah, well, it is time to recognize that, as the old saying goes: You can’t teach a pig to sing. You just frustrate yourself, and annoy the pig. That isn’t to imply that there are swine on the thread, just that there is a time to recognize that an effort is inherently futile. There is not much more to say that has not been said.
J
jjwq2
Guest
Having not read all of the responses to this thread, I have to say that I think people aren’t looking at this with the correct eye, if you will. I think for some woman it is a growth process. I used to wear pants. Then I started wearing skirts more. Now I wear skirts all the time. It took me many years to get to that point. I think it is more feminine and makes me think about covering myself more completely. In other words, more chaste. However, I have to say that if a man is going to look at me in an unchaste way, then he will. It doesn’t matter that I am trying to cover myself up or not. Some men are just sick in the head like that.
Our Blessed Mother dressed extremely modestly. A friend of mine, who has had a great deal of influence on me, for the better, said that she wears skirts in imitation of Our Blessed Mother. I think it is a higher end reason than looking at it from the perspective of men who may do something wrong. Also, I understand that not everyone is at the same point on this topic, but God has led me to this and I don’t want to resist His graces.
Our Blessed Mother dressed extremely modestly. A friend of mine, who has had a great deal of influence on me, for the better, said that she wears skirts in imitation of Our Blessed Mother. I think it is a higher end reason than looking at it from the perspective of men who may do something wrong. Also, I understand that not everyone is at the same point on this topic, but God has led me to this and I don’t want to resist His graces.
S
SwizzleStick
Guest
Apology accepted. All is well.I’m sorry Swizzle… it’s pretty common on here for people to disregard those whom they disagree with on the grounds that they are not clergy - then when clergy are brought up they disregard them because they are not saints, then you quote saints and they say they are not infallible, then you quote the Pope but then it’s disregarded because it’s antiquated or someone claims it’s not infallible.
Again I’m sorry.
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