Pants vs. Dresses/Skirts

[adstrinity]

]Adstrinity,

Ya know… if I didn’t know better I’d think we attended entirely different churches… well, I do attend a NO church, maybe you attend a church with a Traditional Latin Mass? Anyhow, the reason I say this is that I thought of you after I went to confession today. One of the things I brought up was my sin of pride/anger/frustration about any number of topics… but one of them was that I become upset when I see people at Mass, especially serving up at the altar, in what I believe (I must insert that as my opinion considering the topic of this thread, so please no one blast me for that statement) is inappropriate dress. I was confessing my attitude issue… And no, I don’t mean pants on women, I mean backless dresses, spaghetti straps, cleavage showing, dresses up to “here”, men in jeans shorts, etc. Also, that I was having trouble telling my daughter that as Christians we need to have modest dress (again, not saying no pants, just no boobs hanging out, etc.) when we see such in church. I was told in no uncertain terms - twice - that the church is NOT here to be the fashion police, and it is up to every person to wear what they want and believe to be appropriate I even said (at which point I think I annoyed him, although that was truly not my intention) that the church used to have definite dress standards so I didn’t understand, and he then repeated that the church is not here to serve as fashion police and made it clear that the discussion was finished. Ok then, that was fine, after all - it was confession, not as appointment to discuss church policy.

It was an exhausting afternoon. Suffice to say I spent time thinking and in prayer on this matter, but that is a topic for another post.

Yes, I do attend a FSSP Parish. When I lived above the Mason-Dixon line, I began to go to the Latin Mass at St. John Cantius starting about a year ago.

When I went to the OF Masses (not at St. John), I wore, typically, jeans, or jean shorts, and a t-shirt…or sweat shirt. Nobody really dressed up, much. I felt overdressed and silly, when I wore a dress on Easter.

I knew that at the Latin Masses, they were less tolerable (though, down here, I have seen men in overalls and jeans at a different parish, Latin Mass) so I had to dress nicer. I’ve been doing that, and, I’ve been more conscious about my shirts too. I have to figure in I’m going to be kneeling and though a paten will be under my chin, and I doubt that a priest would want to look…

Anyway, it’s funny you bring this up because I was thinking of going to the Mass not 5 minutes away from me today. I would save on gas…and time…the Mass to which I go is 1h 45m away and I have been able to afford it, but, money IS running out and I hope to have money in my account after I pay bills (and a job would be nice, too). I mention all this because, when it comes down to it, I realised, I would miss the homily of the Parish I go to. I can deal with the hand shaking and all that, I guess, but, the reason that I gave this parish nearest me a try is because I didn’t know at the time where the Latin Masses in the State were and my mom (now Protestant…if that) was with me, and I was tired after driving two days to get here. The homily was the priest talking about how a guy he knew became Protestant because nobody from his Catholic Church visited him when he was ill. People from his wife’s Protestant Church visited him. I know Father was saying all this to say we Catholics need to be more out there, but, it could be interpreted as he was extolling (is that the word? Placing them highly?) Protestants. He didn’t mention that the guy should never have left because we have the fullness of the truth or because we have JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF (+) in every tabernacle, no. He was saying that we Catholics need to be better, like the Protestants. …I know, in some cases we do, so, maybe the priest was right in his homily, but, after that, I thought I need the TLM again.

I think I’m going to wear a dress today. I shaved my legs and everything. AGAIN, THE OFFER STANDS: WHOEVER WOULD LIKE TO BUY ME A DRESS, I CAN LINK YOU UP TO THE DRESS I WANT. I WOULD WEAR IT AT MASS!!! I’m doing it just as an experiment. I’ll probably go back to pants next week because I have more appropriate pants than dresses.

…If I may, if you have the option to go to a Latin Mass, please, go to a Latin Mass…non schismatic, only. I used to not like the attitudes of the people here who attend the TLM because they thought they were better than everybody else, and, maybe that is true, but, it was because of I didn’t know what was appropriate that the priest was doing and what wasn’t that I started attending the TLM. I didn’t like it at first, but, I made a promise to God to go for at least one year.

I do not think that the priest thinks he said anything wrong. Coming here, though, I know this is not the case and that, again, a Pope, a Pope 1200 years ago said women wearing pants was not a cause for scandal, and nobody, not even a Pope has contradicted him since. It is because of this forum that I learned that it is not wrong. It is because of this forum that I can continue to be Catholic and not be ignorant (like, say if a priest said something like this in the 1950s, where I wouldn’t have any recourse). However, because this is the priest’s opinion and not the teaching authority of the Church, he can say what he wants and I am fine with that (for now).

People DO dress up (though, women sometimes wear short skirts and men wear no jackets, no ties, and short sleves) for the Latin Mass. The priests who celebrate in Latin are more orthodox.

And, incidentally, WHAT IS WRONG WITH BACKLESS DRESSES NOW?!!!

 

[Love_the_Lorax]

Yes, I do attend a FSSP Parish. When I lived above the Mason-Dixon line, I began to go to the Latin Mass at St. John Cantius starting about a year ago.

When I went to the OF Masses (not at St. John), I wore, typically, jeans, or jean shorts, and a t-shirt…or sweat shirt. Nobody really dressed up, much. I felt overdressed and silly, when I wore a dress on Easter.

And, incidentally, WHAT IS WRONG WITH BACKLESS DRESSES NOW?!!!

Ah… that would make sense - that you attend a FSSP Parish. The one I’m attending (honestly, I’d change but hubby doesn’t really want us to right now…) sounds much like the OF Masses you described.

As far as the backless dress - I honestly didn’t mean to offend, I was careful to insert that it was my opinion . Still, I honestly don’t believe that Mass is the place for backless dresses (we are discussing dress at Mass, right?) Do you see women wear them at a FSSP Parish??? If you do then maybe I’m really out of touch, since I thought that a FSSP parish wouldn’t allow that style of dress.

It is quite late here, way past my bedtime, so I’ll crash before I type somethat that surprises me in the morning - and I have done that before!

 

[adstrinity]

Ah… that would make sense - that you attend a FSSP Parish. The one I’m attending (honestly, I’d change but hubby doesn’t really want us to right now…) sounds much like the OF Masses you described.

As far as the backless dress - I honestly didn’t mean to offend, I was careful to insert that it was my opinion . Still, I honestly don’t believe that Mass is the place for backless dresses (we are discussing dress at Mass, right?) Do you see women wear them at a FSSP Parish??? If you do then maybe I’m really out of touch, since I thought that a FSSP parish wouldn’t allow that style of dress.

It is quite late here, way past my bedtime, so I’ll crash before I type somethat that surprises me in the morning - and I have done that before!

Yes. Sorry. Yes. Yes you did state that was your opinion. And, yes, I suppose we are talking about dresses at Mass. I was wondering in general, though. I mean, they’re backless dresses, not frontless. I wouldn’t think exposing the back would offend, but, I’m talking as a formal cocktail dress. Not an everyday or Sunday dress. I was just wondering. i am so surprised when I find that somebody is offended by something innocuous.

 

[Love_the_Lorax]

Adstrinity, I love this thread! It makes me really think about my beliefs, rather than a knee-jerk reaction. So, even if we don’t always agree, I’m getting a lot out of it.

I was a bit surprised that you said a backless dress is so completely innocuous, and that fact alone was enough to make me at least think about the topic. KWIM?

There are a couple of ways to tell someone they look nice. I can tell my son that he looks nice wearing a cobalt blue top. Totally modest, but the blue shirt brings out the blue in his eyes, looks good with his skin tone, all that. It is a totally, 100% non-sexual comment in every way possible. He simply looks good in that shirt, and orange is lousy on him.

With a backless dress, the wearer is trying to look nice, but if that person is completely and 100% honest about it, aren’t they trying to look nice in a way that has another undertone to it. I’m not saying they are necessarily trying to be a sleaze, but a backless dress simply is designed to get people to take another look. I remember reading a description of a backless dress in a magazine (like Good Housekeeping or something) and it went to the effect of: The front is a modest and form-fitting (their words**), but then surprise - look at the display of her back! Definitely a dress to turn eyes with!! So, just being totally realistic, when that dress turns eyes, almost assuredly it is referring to turning the eyes of men and getting them to take a second look. I find it hard to believe that a guy’s “second look” would not have at least some brief thoughts that are entirely pure. If a woman wears something like that - that purposely exposes that much and draws the eye down her back to her bottom - can she really not be an occasion of sin? Can that honestly be a modest dress for a Christian woman?

So, that’s my take on it. Why can’t a woman wear an evening gown that keeps her back covered and doesn’t invite the eyes to move down her body? I say that not as throwing out an accusing statement, but an honest question.

Really looking forward to your thoughts.

Yes. Sorry. Yes. Yes you did state that was your opinion. And, yes, I suppose we are talking about dresses at Mass. I was wondering in general, though. I mean, they’re backless dresses, not frontless. I wouldn’t think exposing the back would offend, but, I’m talking as a formal cocktail dress. Not an everyday or Sunday dress. I was just wondering. i am so surprised when I find that somebody is offended by something innocuous.

their

 

[JOL]

]Adstrinity,

Ya know… if I didn’t know better I’d think we attended entirely different churches… well, I do attend a NO church, maybe you attend a church with a Traditional Latin Mass? Anyhow, the reason I say this is that I thought of you after I went to confession today. One of the things I brought up was my sin of pride/anger/frustration about any number of topics… but one of them was that I become upset when I see people at Mass, especially serving up at the altar, in what I believe (I must insert that as my opinion considering the topic of this thread, so please no one blast me for that statement) is inappropriate dress. I was confessing my attitude issue… And no, I don’t mean pants on women, I mean backless dresses, spaghetti straps, cleavage showing, dresses up to “here”, men in jeans shorts, etc. Also, that I was having trouble telling my daughter that as Christians we need to have modest dress (again, not saying no pants, just no boobs hanging out, etc.) when we see such in church. I was told in no uncertain terms - twice - that the church is NOT here to be the fashion police, and it is up to every person to wear what they want and believe to be appropriate I even said (at which point I think I annoyed him, although that was truly not my intention) that the church used to have definite dress standards so I didn’t understand, and he then repeated that the church is not here to serve as fashion police and made it clear that the discussion was finished. Ok then, that was fine, after all - it was confession, not as appointment to discuss church policy.

It was an exhausting afternoon. Suffice to say I spent time thinking and in prayer on this matter, but that is a topic for another post.

This is quite interesting. My church is a NO church as well. Yesterday I was talking with my Priest about modesty and he did lay out standards for dressing in Church. He said men should wear slacks and a collared shirt at a minimum. He said if the men wanted to be in what is considered “Sunday best” they would put on a tie and possibly even a jacket. For women he said loose slacks or dress/skirt. Arms covered mid-way, no exposure of shoulders, back, chest. He said when we are at church we should dress so that we are not a distraction for our brothers and sisters. He even went on to talk about protestants who get dressed up in their “Sunday best” every Sunday and how they don’t have what we have, yet many dress like bums to attend Mass where we meet our Lord each time.

 

[JOL]

Adstrinity, I love this thread! It makes me really think about my beliefs, rather than a knee-jerk reaction. So, even if we don’t always agree, I’m getting a lot out of it.

I was a bit surprised that you said a backless dress is so completely innocuous, and that fact alone was enough to make me at least think about the topic. KWIM?

There are a couple of ways to tell someone they look nice. I can tell my son that he looks nice wearing a cobalt blue top. Totally modest, but the blue shirt brings out the blue in his eyes, looks good with his skin tone, all that. It is a totally, 100% non-sexual comment in every way possible. He simply looks good in that shirt, and orange is lousy on him.

With a backless dress, the wearer is trying to look nice, but if that person is completely and 100% honest about it, aren’t they trying to look nice in a way that has another undertone to it. I’m not saying they are necessarily trying to be a sleaze, but a backless dress simply is designed to get people to take another look. I remember reading a description of a backless dress in a magazine (like Good Housekeeping or something) and it went to the effect of: The front is a modest and form-fitting (their words**), but then surprise - look at the display of her back! Definitely a dress to turn eyes with!! So, just being totally realistic, when that dress turns eyes, almost assuredly it is referring to turning the eyes of men and getting them to take a second look. I find it hard to believe that a guy’s “second look” would not have at least some brief thoughts that are entirely pure. If a woman wears something like that - that purposely exposes that much and draws the eye down her back to her bottom - can she really not be an occasion of sin? Can that honestly be a modest dress for a Christian woman?

So, that’s my take on it. Why can’t a woman wear an evening gown that keeps her back covered and doesn’t invite the eyes to move down her body? I say that not as throwing out an accusing statement, but an honest question.

Really looking forward to your thoughts.

their

I agree with this. I too have enjoyed this discussion thoroughly, even though at times it sounded like it was giong to get out of control.

I think what we have to consider is Church/Biblical/Christianity standards versus secular standards. To a secular society, a backless dress is absolutely fine. Most secular women wouldn’t even consider what the actual thoughts of a man might be other than to think that he may think she is ‘hot’. She wouldn’t necessarily think he was thinking unpure thoughts, or sexual thoughts. That isn’t her thought process and so she cannot relate. She is oblivious to the thoughts that the man will go through. For the Christian, we must be concerned with those thoughts. It may not be our intent for a man to have these thoughts, but we don’t want to be a ‘near occasion of sin’ for him.

I hope I have said what I am thinking clearly!..LOL.

 

[Tamsulosin]

Now I wonder if seeing the back leads someone to sin,what do you wear at the beach?There aren’t many pieces of swimwear that cover the back.
Impure minds can make any body part exposed sinful: you say the back leads the eyes to the rear,.Then the neck to the breasts, the legs to the pubic are,etc, etc.

I have started to think that some of you may have converted from an islamic religion,in which only the eyes can be exposed.And that only because otherwise you cannot function.It definitely has started to look that is the case.

I do not have any way of knowing what our Lord thinks,but I wonder if it is ok to be so ashamed of the body he has created for us.
There are animals in the creation that are monogamous and they do not see the need to hide their bodies so much.If they can do it,I assume humans can control themselves also.
And then may be not for what I hear.

 

[slyboots]

Now I wonder if seeing the back leads someone to sin,what do you wear at the beach?There aren’t many pieces of swimwear that cover the back.
Impure minds can make any body part exposed sinful: you say the back leads the eyes to the rear,.Then the neck to the breasts, the legs to the pubic are,etc, etc.

I have started to think that some of you may have converted from an islamic religion,in which only the eyes can be exposed.And that only because otherwise you cannot function.It definitely has started to look that is the case.

I do not have any way of knowing what our Lord thinks,but I wonder if it is ok to be so ashamed of the body he has created for us.
There are animals in the creation that are monogamous and they do not see the need to hide their bodies so much.If they can do it,I assume humans can control themselves also.
And then may be not for what I hear.

Beach and swimming wear for me is shockingly not a one piece. It incudes a skirted bottom for a two piece (Wal-mart purchase), a bra type top, BUT it also includes an sleeved overshirt that ends just below the bottom of the skirted bottom. We have our own pool so I swim a lot.
Before anyone starts freaking out about it, think about this. I am fair haired and pale skinned. I have to wear a lot of sunscreen. So weaing this apparel helps me from tanning and burning and getting skin cancer. And it is modest. And comfortable.

 

[Love_the_Lorax]

Sounds familiar… my daughter and I have tankinis because we are long waisted and one-pieces ride up. They are also skirted, and the tops are made to cover chest, back and belly. I also tend to throw on a T-shirt to provide additional coverage because I think they would be much better with more fabric. In fact, I just ordered swimshirts from Lands End for my daughter that include short sleeves, full front and back coverage, and also bottoms that have a little skirt. Not as long as I would prefer, but a start. We are blessed enough to have a pool (sometimes a monster headache!) which is nice in the desert heat, and even swimming just with family or friends I prefer to have us remain decently covered.

FWIW, bikinis are never going to happen in our house. Yep, I know that there are many that would say that is silly, they wear them and love them, and that’s fine. I’m not wanting to start WW3, I’m simply stating that I am really trying to practice the amount of coverage that I believe is good rather then saying one thing and doing another. And no… I was never Muslim. I’m also not ashamed of the human body, I just believe that God intended bodies to be for our spouse’s viewing pleasure, and as a mom I want to protect my daughter’s modesty as much as possible, What she chooses as an adult will be entirely up to her.

Sometimes it is interesting how one’s perspective changes. My hubby is Catholic, although he rarely attends Mass, and he is most definitely not one to espouse extreme modesty views. He thinks I dress too modestly oftentimes! With that in mind… when my daughter was younger (say 4 - 6 years old) he would tell me to not dress her in “granny dresses”, to get those cute, short skirts, etc. In fact, he laughed at me - I have witnesses - when she was about 6 and I bought her a swimsuit with a skirt attached he thought I was being silly. Fast forward a couple of years as she gets taller and leaner with not such a little girl body, and I bought her a regular tankini - no skirt. After all, I’m trying to follow hubby’s leadership right? Not a bikini mind you, or one with a very small bottom, but no skirt on it. She walked out in that outfit and his eyes about bugged out of his head. Once she left the room he informed that he was appalled, it wasn’t anything more than underwear, he didn’t want his daughter that exposed, etc. etc. What a change of mind!!! All because, he fully admits, he doesn’t want guys looking at HIS daughter the way that he knows guys like to look at girls in skimpy attire.

Beach and swimming wear for me is shockingly not a one piece. It incudes a skirted bottom for a two piece (Wal-mart purchase), a bra type top, BUT it also includes an sleeved overshirt that ends just below the bottom of the skirted bottom. We have our own pool so I swim a lot.
Before anyone starts freaking out about it, think about this. I am fair haired and pale skinned. I have to wear a lot of sunscreen. So weaing this apparel helps me from tanning and burning and getting skin cancer. And it is modest. And comfortable.

 

[JOL]

This is simply my opinion, a bikini is just as modest or appropriate as walking around your front yard in underwear and a bra. A one piece, though it covers more, it is still not modest as it is as form fitting as something can get.

We can’t look at modesty through societies eyes but the Churches or the Lord eyes.

Swimwear is near nude. It is a small piece of spandex away from nudity.

 

[Tamsulosin]

I like swimwear with a skirt also.In that we agree.I do not mind the back exposed as long as is not low cut.
But in general I think that the the sinful thoughts depend a lot on the people.
Some of them may be used to entretain impure thoughts all the time, and anything triggers the desire.It’s like an addiction I guess.Even if they see a female scarecrow.
Other men, perhaps find all the satisfaction they need in their spouses. It is like if you are fed at home, you are not hungering in the street and stop at McDonalds,for example.
In general men go around their day working, and will not stop to look at a middle age woman because she wears a pair of black slacks.It just does not happen.Only on certain minds.
My 2 cents.I am out of this thread having expresed my thoughts.

 

[adstrinity]

Ugh. I think backless dresses are an issue only for people who want to make them an issue…just like pants. I now look at women wearing pants and shorts and think, “Huh. I wonder if they know they’re sinning.” I didn’t use to think that. This didn’t use to be an issue, but, now that I’ve had my mind poisoned by all this, that’s what comes to my mind. I don’t look at the women anymore, I look at her pants…and her butt…or her crotch. I will pray for all of you who led me down this path, that God has mercy on you that you made me lose my innocence with this. And, of course, I know they are NOT sinning, but, only that some people THINK they are sinning.

So, as today. I went to church in a dress. I was told I look nice by a female senior citizen of the parish. You know what I noticed? Two women in pants. You know what I noticed about them? Both fat. I think there must be a secret dispensation. Yes, that’s what it is. You all didn’t receive it, but, we did. If a female is beyond 250 lbs. and/or waddles, she is allowed to wear pants.

The dress, btw, was a failure. It might have come down 8" past my knees, but, it shows a teeny bit of cleavage…or a decent amount if I’m kneeling. I bought a new shirt just now, not that I have the money for it, because I really don’t. It buttons up to my chin. I now want a dress and a skirt. I notice, NOBODY is willing to take me up on the buying a dress offer. As a matter of fact, it got REALLY quiet here when I asked for help with this. Oh, sure, you all can tell me what to do, but, you wont help me do it. Huh. Then, I guess, it’s either really NOT a sin, OR, you don’t care.

Anyway, I do like this dress, it’s brown and white, and, well, it used to fit better, but, I like it. It’s not a bad dress, but, I’m not going to wear it every week.

I was rear ended coming home (I’m fine, no worries). I got out of my car, and, the other young woman (between 17 and 25, I’m guessing), was wearing jeans and a t-shirt. She offered to pop my rear bumper back on, both sides. NO, I did not exchange information (and, please, I really don’t want to hear about this). I was glad I had my seatbelt on because I DID feel the impact in my back (no, it didn’t hurt and it doesn’t now). I wondered if she offered to put the bumper back into place (it was jared) because I was wearing a dress.

I just came back from WalMart in my dress. Wasn’t treated any differently there.

To all who are enjoying this thread, I am glad.

I don’t mind bikinis, either, I don’t think. …Okay, yes, maybe I do. String bikinis that aren’t meant to get wet bug me. I don’t mind thong bikinis. I don’t mind…I suppose one has to draw the line somewhere. I do get offended with boobs hanging out. I didn’t use to, but, now, it is…boring. Maybe that’s what upsets me about it, it’s gotten to the point where, “I can show more of my boobs without revealing nipple than you!” and, maybe that’s what I don’t like, that it’s a tease show. Either show it all or not at all; there’s really no need for the tease. I don’t mind women covering up, either.

And, concerning bikinis being like panties and bras, one year, as a practice for my University’s Mock Trial class, our hotel had a pool. The fit girls, when we stopped at a WalMart or something, went to the swimwear…which was mix and match, and much too expensive, a scam, if you will. The one girl commented that she could just swim in her panties and bra…and that’s exactly what she did. She was covered.

Again, should anybody WANT to buy me a skirt and/or a dress…I will gladly let you.

I suppose that one could say a backless dress leads eyes to the butt, but…I think I’ll have to think about this.

 

[Love_the_Lorax]

You know, after lots of reading of various sites, and prayer time, and (in my opinon) the Lord talking to me… I’m actually more comfortable with the pants idea, assuming they are not skin-tight. I still think there is something to the idea, but that’s me. I can’t say I agree with some of your other opinions, but hey - that’s why we called them opinions, since we can agree to disagree.

I must admit though, I’m having trouble following some of your post. At some points you seem angry with various posters, then you seem to want a dress. FWIW, I do understand what you are saying about finding yourself really noticing women in pants - especially at Mass. I went through the same thing, but I just figured it was an issue I needed to work out. If you truly are not convinced that pants are even an issue at all, then why bother asking about getting a dress? Honestly asking here, most likely I’m just being slow because it is way late and I should be in bed instead of at the computer.

By the way, I’m VERY glad that you weren’t hurt in the accident!

Ugh. I think backless dresses are an issue only for people who want to make them an issue…just like pants. I now look at women wearing pants and shorts and think, “Huh. I wonder if they know they’re sinning.” I didn’t use to think that. This didn’t use to be an issue, but, now that I’ve had my mind poisoned by all this, that’s what comes to my mind. I don’t look at the women anymore, I look at her pants…and her butt…or her crotch. I will pray for all of you who led me down this path, that God has mercy on you that you made me lose my innocence with this. And, of course, I know they are NOT sinning, but, only that some people THINK they are sinning.

So, as today. I went to church in a dress. I was told I look nice by a female senior citizen of the parish. You know what I noticed? Two women in pants. You know what I noticed about them? Both fat. I think there must be a secret dispensation. Yes, that’s what it is. You all didn’t receive it, but, we did. If a female is beyond 250 lbs. and/or waddles, she is allowed to wear pants.

The dress, btw, was a failure. It might have come down 8" past my knees, but, it shows a teeny bit of cleavage…or a decent amount if I’m kneeling. I bought a new shirt just now, not that I have the money for it, because I really don’t. It buttons up to my chin. I now want a dress and a skirt. I notice, NOBODY is willing to take me up on the buying a dress offer. As a matter of fact, it got REALLY quiet here when I asked for help with this. Oh, sure, you all can tell me what to do, but, you wont help me do it. Huh. Then, I guess, it’s either really NOT a sin, OR, you don’t care.

Anyway, I do like this dress, it’s brown and white, and, well, it used to fit better, but, I like it. It’s not a bad dress, but, I’m not going to wear it every week.

I was rear ended coming home (I’m fine, no worries). I got out of my car, and, the other young woman (between 17 and 25, I’m guessing), was wearing jeans and a t-shirt. She offered to pop my rear bumper back on, both sides. NO, I did not exchange information (and, please, I really don’t want to hear about this). I was glad I had my seatbelt on because I DID feel the impact in my back (no, it didn’t hurt and it doesn’t now). I wondered if she offered to put the bumper back into place (it was jared) because I was wearing a dress.

I just came back from WalMart in my dress. Wasn’t treated any differently there.

To all who are enjoying this thread, I am glad.

I don’t mind bikinis, either, I don’t think. …Okay, yes, maybe I do. String bikinis that aren’t meant to get wet bug me. I don’t mind thong bikinis. I don’t mind…I suppose one has to draw the line somewhere. I do get offended with boobs hanging out. I didn’t use to, but, now, it is…boring. Maybe that’s what upsets me about it, it’s gotten to the point where, “I can show more of my boobs without revealing nipple than you!” and, maybe that’s what I don’t like, that it’s a tease show. Either show it all or not at all; there’s really no need for the tease. I don’t mind women covering up, either.

And, concerning bikinis being like panties and bras, one year, as a practice for my University’s Mock Trial class, our hotel had a pool. The fit girls, when we stopped at a WalMart or something, went to the swimwear…which was mix and match, and much too expensive, a scam, if you will. The one girl commented that she could just swim in her panties and bra…and that’s exactly what she did. She was covered.

Again, should anybody WANT to buy me a skirt and/or a dress…I will gladly let you.

I suppose that one could say a backless dress leads eyes to the butt, but…I think I’ll have to think about this.

 

[adstrinity]

I am upset because it shouldn’t be an issue and some people are trying to make it one.

I want the dress, though, because, quite honestly, as somebody pointed out to me and I posted in this thread, at formal occasions in the west, a woman wears a dress; it is the most dressy / dress up thing she can wear. Since it is God, I figure a dress…

See how easy it is? That’s a good bit of logic right there. Doesn’t condemn anybody or anything. I can’t really argue with that, either. I’m not looking to wear a dress everyday, but, for the people who say it’s wrong for women to wear pants and who say it is immodest, especially in Mass, I am letting them defend their positions by letting them buy me a dress. That’s really all.

I don’t know if you noticed, but, I’m not being altogether rational at some points in this post…it really upsets me when people are trying to push the dress thing as ONLY.

Everything else, I’ve become too de-sensitized. I’m not easily scandalized.

And, thank you for the well-wishes! I’m glad I’m alright, too!

thought this post was done but, decides to go off on a rant here

I mean, alright, so, women in the west wore dresses in the past. That was everyday wear, but, now, it’s not. Everyday wear is pants or shorts. That’s just how it is. And, you know what else? Back in Colonial America and I believe through the Civil War, but, I could be wrong, women wore dresses with fake bottoms BECAUSE they would walk the streets and the bottoms would get dirty and it’s so much easier to take of a few inches to wash than an entire dress (i.e., they cheated with the dress thing). It’s just not practical nor comfortable nor necessary for women to wear pants now. There’s no big thing wrong with it. …That being said, I really feel like I have been brainwashed that pants are inferiour. I know it’s not God saying that, but, I feel like the judgemental people on this thread (not all of you, but, I hope you all who are know who you are), will look down on me now for not wearing a dress and they have made me think that others will look down on me for not wearing a dress. That bugs me.

 

[JOL]

I like swimwear with a skirt also.In that we agree.I do not mind the back exposed as long as is not low cut.
But in general I think that the the sinful thoughts depend a lot on the people.
Some of them may be used to entretain impure thoughts all the time, and anything triggers the desire.It’s like an addiction I guess.Even if they see a female scarecrow.
Other men, perhaps find all the satisfaction they need in their spouses. It is like if you are fed at home, you are not hungering in the street and stop at McDonalds,for example.
In general men go around their day working, and will not stop to look at a middle age woman because she wears a pair of black slacks.It just does not happen.Only on certain minds.
My 2 cents.I am out of this thread having expresed my thoughts.

The male lookers don’t have to be married only. They could be single, immature, 20-somethings whose minds will go straight into the gutter.

 

[JOL]

Reply part 1:

Ugh. I think backless dresses are an issue only for people who want to make them an issue…just like pants. I now look at women wearing pants and shorts and think, “Huh. I wonder if they know they’re sinning.” I didn’t use to think that. This didn’t use to be an issue, but, now that I’ve had my mind poisoned by all this, that’s what comes to my mind. I don’t look at the women anymore, I look at her pants…and her butt…or her crotch. I will pray for all of you who led me down this path, that God has mercy on you that you made me lose my innocence with this. And, of course, I know they are NOT sinning, but, only that some people THINK they are sinning.

I don’t think this conversation is really about if you [adstrinity] or me [jol] thinks this is an issue. This conversation isn’t even about if society thinks this is an issue, hey, last I check society wasn’t trying to live and honor our Lord. No, this issue is about what is right in the Lord’s eyes. We can find out what is right in the Lord’s eyes by reading sacred Scripture and listening to the Saints, Pope’s, and others who live far holier lives than we do have said. Also, it may not be that we “poisoned” you by all of this, but opened your eyes to a truth you didn’t know before. And the wearers of the pants may not realize there is anything wrong with wearing pants because they probably wore pants all their lives and haven’t had any of this explained to them before. Like, if you didn’t know something was sinful and you did it all the time, but once you found out it was sinful, if you continue to do it, it is sin.

So, as today. I went to church in a dress. I was told I look nice by a female senior citizen of the parish. You know what I noticed? Two women in pants. You know what I noticed about them? Both fat. I think there must be a secret dispensation. Yes, that’s what it is. You all didn’t receive it, but, we did. If a female is beyond 250 lbs. and/or waddles, she is allowed to wear pants.

I am not thin. I am not even slightly overweight. My mind doesn’t see myself the same way the mirror reflects me, but I am still overweight. And guess what, I am trying to make this transition to dresses only. I am beginning to get self-conscious in wearing pants/shorts and not really liking it. Yesterday I sat behind two women at Mass who had on pants. The one woman was overweight. When she knelt down the waist of her pants on the back was pulled down a little lower and her shirt wasn’t covering the gap. Her skin wasn’t exposed but her underwear was, which is equally distracting and gross. This is off topic, but I am sharing it anyway. Remember that booklet “Attention Catholics” I had posted the link for. In it I read about a Priest who had his alter servers walk outside with candles beside some woman who had left church immediately after receiving communion. This woman had done that and I had thought about this booklet and wondered what she would have thought if our Priest had done the same.

The dress, btw, was a failure. It might have come down 8" past my knees, but, it shows a teeny bit of cleavage…or a decent amount if I’m kneeling. I bought a new shirt just now, not that I have the money for it, because I really don’t. It buttons up to my chin. I now want a dress and a skirt. I notice, NOBODY is willing to take me up on the buying a dress offer. As a matter of fact, it got REALLY quiet here when I asked for help with this. Oh, sure, you all can tell me what to do, but, you wont help me do it. Huh. Then, I guess, it’s either really NOT a sin, OR, you don’t care.

When I wear shirts that show cleavage, I wear another shirt under them to ensure I don’t expose any. Also, when I wear white shirts that tend to have a transparency, I wear a shirt under them to ensure you can’t see through the first shirt. Oh, I wanted to tell you something. I said a couple paragraphs above that I am overweight. Being overweight doesn’t stop men from staring at you. My husband is always noticing other men stare at me, he doesn’t like it, but it happens…and I am overweight.

I also responded about your request for purchasing a dress for you and had said money is tight here to. Especially with me trying to make this transformation in my own wardrobe…LOL. When I began to start to make this transition someone had mentioned to me that I should check out the thrift stores. Let me tell you, that was real humbling to me as I had never even stepped into a thrift store before. I did find a jean skirt that I liked there in my [larger] size. It was only $4.99. I also bought myself a couple skirts this weekend from womenwithin.com (it is an on-line plus size clothing store). They always have specials where you can get good discounts. Not everything on that site is modest, but you can find some nice modest clothing.

 

[JOL]

Reply part 2:

Anyway, I do like this dress, it’s brown and white, and, well, it used to fit better, but, I like it. It’s not a bad dress, but, I’m not going to wear it every week.

I was rear ended coming home (I’m fine, no worries). I got out of my car, and, the other young woman (between 17 and 25, I’m guessing), was wearing jeans and a t-shirt. She offered to pop my rear bumper back on, both sides. NO, I did not exchange information (and, please, I really don’t want to hear about this). I was glad I had my seatbelt on because I DID feel the impact in my back (no, it didn’t hurt and it doesn’t now). I wondered if she offered to put the bumper back into place (it was jared) because I was wearing a dress.

I am glad you weren’t injured. You know, I can’t imagine how a car accident feels when people are driving at high speeds, even 40 mph’s. Once I was in bumper to bumper traffic, it was pouring rain, and this woman hit the back of my car. We mustn’t have been going over 15. It was a very loud crash and my body jerked forward. I did have my seatbelt on, but was thankful we were driving so slow. If we have been driving faster, as hard as it felt her car hit me, it would have been much worse. Anyway, like I said, I am glad you weren’t injured.

I just came back from WalMart in my dress. Wasn’t treated any differently there.

I don’t know how differently you would be treated everywhere you go. My husband has started opening the car door more often for me now that I am wearing skirts. He did open them for me before (occastionally) when I was wearing pants before, but it seems he is doing it more for me now.

To all who are enjoying this thread, I am glad.

I don’t mind bikinis, either, I don’t think. …Okay, yes, maybe I do. String bikinis that aren’t meant to get wet bug me. I don’t mind thong bikinis. I don’t mind…I suppose one has to draw the line somewhere. I do get offended with boobs hanging out. I didn’t use to, but, now, it is…boring. Maybe that’s what upsets me about it, it’s gotten to the point where, “I can show more of my boobs without revealing nipple than you!” and, maybe that’s what I don’t like, that it’s a tease show. Either show it all or not at all; there’s really no need for the tease. I don’t mind women covering up, either.

And, concerning bikinis being like panties and bras, one year, as a practice for my University’s Mock Trial class, our hotel had a pool. The fit girls, when we stopped at a WalMart or something, went to the swimwear…which was mix and match, and much too expensive, a scam, if you will. The one girl commented that she could just swim in her panties and bra…and that’s exactly what she did. She was covered.

As I said above, this isn’t about what you or “Bill” or “Bob” or “Jessica” or “Jamie” thinks is okay and appropriate. This is about what our Lord’s standards are.

Again, should anybody WANT to buy me a skirt and/or a dress…I will gladly let you.

I suppose that one could say a backless dress leads eyes to the butt, but…I think I’ll have to think about this.

I don’t think it matters where a backless dress “leads the eyes to” but the fact that to wear one is to not be covered up and therefore, not modest. We don’t have to walk around looking like grandma’s, but we should be covered and sensible. And not for the sole motivation of keeping our brothers from stubling, but to honor our Lord who did so much for us.

I will say, you sound very gitty in this post, are you sure you are okay? I have enjoyed this conversation a lot and am glad you stuck around to keep it going.

 

[JOL]

I am upset because it shouldn’t be an issue and some people are trying to make it one.

I want the dress, though, because, quite honestly, as somebody pointed out to me and I posted in this thread, at formal occasions in the west, a woman wears a dress; it is the most dressy / dress up thing she can wear. Since it is God, I figure a dress…

See how easy it is? That’s a good bit of logic right there. Doesn’t condemn anybody or anything. I can’t really argue with that, either. I’m not looking to wear a dress everyday, but, for the people who say it’s wrong for women to wear pants and who say it is immodest, especially in Mass, I am letting them defend their positions by letting them buy me a dress. That’s really all.

I don’t know if you noticed, but, I’m not being altogether rational at some points in this post…it really upsets me when people are trying to push the dress thing as ONLY.

Everything else, I’ve become too de-sensitized. I’m not easily scandalized.

And, thank you for the well-wishes! I’m glad I’m alright, too!

thought this post was done but, decides to go off on a rant here

I mean, alright, so, women in the west wore dresses in the past. That was everyday wear, but, now, it’s not. Everyday wear is pants or shorts. That’s just how it is. And, you know what else? Back in Colonial America and I believe through the Civil War, but, I could be wrong, women wore dresses with fake bottoms BECAUSE they would walk the streets and the bottoms would get dirty and it’s so much easier to take of a few inches to wash than an entire dress (i.e., they cheated with the dress thing). It’s just not practical nor comfortable nor necessary for women to wear pants now. There’s no big thing wrong with it. …That being said, I really feel like I have been brainwashed that pants are inferiour. I know it’s not God saying that, but, I feel like the judgemental people on this thread (not all of you, but, I hope you all who are know who you are), will look down on me now for not wearing a dress and they have made me think that others will look down on me for not wearing a dress. That bugs me.

I would just say don’t shirk it off as people on these boards making you feel bad about wearing pants. The reason I say that is because this whole idea of wearing dresses and skirts only came to me about 3 years ago. Back then I didn’t even entertain it, and now it is more like I am being convicted of it. I am learning things which I believe are true.

I have shared with you alot of what I have been reading. You disagree with most of it, which is fine, it is your opinion [today]. Those same opinions were my opinions 3 years ago. But the Lord keeps bringing this dresses/skirts thing around to me by different avenues. And so, I have to start paying attention to what He is telling me.

I don’t look down on you for wearing pants, that is your choice. But at the same time, when I read things from what Pope Pius XII has said, and look into the Marylike Crusade that was going on in the 50’s, I have to look at it seriously in relation to our society today and see the logic in it.

I guess a good thing to study would be the prevalence of pediofilia 60 years ago when parents dressed their children modestly versus today when they don’t.

 

[Lainey63]

You have got to be kidding me…the previlance of pedophilia…you mean the time when it was virtually “unspoken”. Honestly, it is easier for a child molester to get up a child’s skirt than it is to try manuever through pants. 60 years ago the child was NOT believed and the blame was placed on the child. To say simply that it is a matter of modest dress…is an oversimplfied, irresponsible statement to such an heinous act against a child.

 

[JOL]

You have got to be kidding me…the previlance of pedophilia…you mean the time when it was virtually “unspoken”. Honestly, it is easier for a child molester to get up a child’s skirt than it is to try manuever through pants. 60 years ago the child was NOT believed and the blame was placed on the child. To say simply that it is a matter of modest dress…is an oversimplfied, irresponsible statement to such an heinous act against a child.

Obviously pedophila is more complex than this. But that doesn’t mean many things don’t stack up to create a bigger issue. Our entire society has become less modest, from men and women to children. And it is not a child’s fault for lack of modesty but the parents fault for not fostering this within a child. Did you know several years ago there was a clothing designer that was creating thong-type underwear for children??? What the heck for?

Why do parents allow children to wear bikini’s? Why when you walk through a clothing store is the children’s clothing mini-teen/adult clothing? Why do you have kids tv shows having 14 year olds making out with older boys?..or cartoons with girls flirting with boys?

Alcoholism is a disease, would you invite an alcoholic over to your house and offer them a beer? Pediophilia is a disease, would you invite a pedophile into your home and have your children walk around in their undewear?

There are things that create temptations in others, period.