Pants vs. Dresses/Skirts

[juliamajor]

juliamajor, you wrote: “Was it my fault and my sin that compelled these creatures to occasions of sin thereby making it(again) my fault the -females fault?”

What compels them to sin is fallen nature. They are responsible for their sin, but it is possible to be complicit. You would have to determine if you had sinned against immodesty and also if you had provided scandal in each circumstance (which could be a second sin).

Scandal is providing temptation to sin, even if the scandalized does not sin, and even if that which scandalizes is not a sin in itself. It can be an error of ommission, of not taking care. Christian charity requires that we look out for each other.

The scandalized are responsible for their sin, even though they are scandalized.

so man suffer from fallen nature and women are complicit for the leering they encounter?I might have been a hot momma as teenager but my catholic school uniform of a brown tweed jacket knees socks, blouse ,skirt down to my knees would not be considered by me a sexy outfit.My body was my body.I couldn’t exactlybind my breasts in order that i may not
be complicit in enticing those poor fellows.!jeez that’s ridiculous!
What about obeying the lord’s command of plucking out your right eye it it offends? I have strong feeling if men took this literally there would be aheck of a lot of one-eyed men around. why is the onus for enticement laid at the feet of women.? why can’t a guy take responsiblity or his own failings?if i don’t want to look at something I turn away.I have no right to be offended if I stare.
what constitutes scandal? if I stare into a mirror to see if all my parts are tucked neatly away and go about my business I still could scandalize someone because some are easily scandalized. does that mean they are correct?Or is my personal view of myself correct? beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is ugly.some people see ugliness and scandal everywhere they look.that way they can blame their weaknesses on other folks and have no need for introspection.no introspection no growth.checking everyone else’s faults and not making your own sin your primary concern and focus leads to pharisical behavior ,a swelled head and ungenerosity of spirit.
.judging people by their clothes is like judging a book by it’s cover. no depth.flat surface incorrect information

 

[SHW]

Since the Church hierarchy (Magisterium) does not condemn women wearing “modest” pants to church or wearing “modest” pants in daily life, why do some people keep insisting that everyone adopt their own personal opinions that women’s pants are “displeasing” to God or “sinful?” Modest clothing is what matters. Skirts and dresses are not necessarily more modest than pants are. The Church also does not require that women wear hats in church. Some people cannot handle rulings or opinions contrary to their own personal opinions.

IF the Tridentine Mass had not been frozen in nostalgic time in the 60s due to its suppression, the clothing styles worn to this Mass would have evolved (women wearing pants, no hats required) along with the rest of society.

The fashions that are displeasing to God are immodest clothing. Immodest clothing is clothing that is too tight or too revealing. It really has nothing to do with hats or pants.

 

[Shin]

If you think modesty only has to do with lust and sexuality, you do not understand what modesty is.

I suggest a refresher.

Modesty has everything to do with honesty and the proper mode you are meant by God to appear in. That which is discordant to it has to be taken care of as can be done.

I should ask you know, rather than knee-jerk reactions that are -exactly the same- as what secular, worldly non-Christian people would react to this modest proposal… that you think twice… and try to see things the other way around, put yourself in the shoes of someone…

Who saw this matter from the exact opposite perspective and pursued an understanding of it in that way. A very modest way. This is a wonderful way to arrive at the truth.

Everyone should still understand that men wearing hats in church is immodest, I should add.

 

[rudy792]

so man suffer from fallen nature and women are complicit for the leering they encounter?I might have been a hot momma as teenager but my catholic school uniform of a brown tweed jacket knees socks, blouse ,skirt down to my knees would not be considered by me a sexy outfit.My body was my body.I couldn’t exactlybind my breasts in order that i may not
be complicit in enticing those poor fellows.!jeez that’s ridiculous!
What about obeying the lord’s command of plucking out your right eye it it offends? I have strong feeling if men took this literally there would be aheck of a lot of one-eyed men around. why is the onus for enticement laid at the feet of women.? why can’t a guy take responsiblity or his own failings?if i don’t want to look at something I turn away.I have no right to be offended if I stare.
what constitutes scandal? if I stare into a mirror to see if all my parts are tucked neatly away and go about my business I still could scandalize someone because some are easily scandalized. does that mean they are correct?Or is my personal view of myself correct? beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is ugly.some people see ugliness and scandal everywhere they look.that way they can blame their weaknesses on other folks and have no need for introspection.no introspection no growth.checking everyone else’s faults and not making your own sin your primary concern and focus leads to pharisical behavior ,a swelled head and ungenerosity of spirit.
.judging people by their clothes is like judging a book by it’s cover. no depth.flat surface incorrect information

-One eyed men! You are funny-but it is terrifyingly true what you say. But I must say, what Vico says in the quote you give is definitely true. I am no fence sitter - but there is a lot of truth being opposed by complimentary truth here on this thread. Still, that’s funny. I must admit, as a young man I would have had to remove my entire head! I’m good now though, thank The Lord !

 

[rudy792]

a hot momma as teenager but my catholic school uniform !

a Catholic school girl uniform - - - CLASSIC !

Come on Brother’s and Sister’s - Modest is modest. Do the best in complete sincerity according to what you know and you are doing right by God. All the rest of this is rubbish. There is no rulebook-none! But ladies, men have a God given drive for the hunt. A man must turn away, as quick as Joseph ran away from the king’s wife if he sees a lovely lass half dressed. He WILL be tittilated-by nature, but if he entertains the tittilation, then he sins. HE must turn his head. It’s a matter of discipline. Thanking the Lord I have mastered it. It takes a bit of practice and short prayer -“Jesus turn my head, Lord” etc. Still, if you are a Catholic women dressing to tittilate, you are drawing the man to the sin and you are culpable. It is a two way street. We all know this. Why is this thread 800 pages long. The only real thing being accomplished is acrimony among professing Catholics. I guarantee you if an anti-Catholic Atheist stepped on this thread we all would unify quicker than the Catholic boys against the orange parade.
Let’s do it in Love or not at all. - Sean

 

[Vico]

juliamajor, you ask many questions:

“So man suffer from fallen nature and women are complicit for the leering they encounter?”

It is possible to be complicit, this is not a judgment of you or your particular situation.

“What about obeying the lord’s command of plucking out your right eye it it offends?”

Mutilation is also a sin, by you or another.

“Why is the onus for enticement laid at the feet of women?”

Scandal can be intentional, then it is enticement. When unintentional, it is not enticement, but could be non charitible.

“why can’t a guy take responsiblity or his own failings?”

Many people deny their errors to defend their ego, and it prevents their obtaining grace. Some are ignorant of the commandments.

What constitutes scandal?

Active scandal is “something said or done less rightly,” which is an occassion of sin for another, even if they do not sin as a result of it, and can occur intentionally or even unintentionally.

“…I still could scandalize someone because some are easily scandalized, does that mean they are correct?”

No.

Or is my personal view of myself correct?

We cannot know anothers mind, but can learn in a general way what kind of effect we have on others. We do not always know other’s weaknesses. Also if the goods outweigh the scandal, it may not be required to avoid it. Scandal is a rather complex subject and requires some study.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Modesty has everything to do with honesty and the proper mode you are meant by God to appear in. That which is discordant to it has to be taken care of as can be done.

Let’s see. If God created me, it’s only logical to say that the way He has meant for me to appear is none other than… as myself.

Thus, when I look in the mirror and imagine myself in a Barong Tagalog or some stuffy suit, I only see two things.

1.) I see someone who looks like he’s attending a wedding.
2.) I see a geek out to impress his grandma.

I do not see myself as I am in my daily life.

So with that said, I’m pretty sure a lot of girls would say the same. If modesty is some form of honesty with ourselves, then dressing up as who we are is not going to be limited to long skirts and habits.

Everyone should still understand that men wearing hats in church is immodest, I should add.

Hats are hats. Pants are pants.

 

[Bluegoat]

Men wearing hats in church is not immodest. There are other virtues (and sins) that relate to clothing and dress that do not fall under the category of modesty. Vanity is an example - one can be vain in dress without being immodest at all.

 

[Vico]

Actually there are two meanings given for modesty in Merriam-Webster:

1 : freedom from conceit or vanity
2 : propriety in dress, speech, or conduct

 

[Bluegoat]

Actually there are two meanings given for modesty in Merriam-Webster:

1 : freedom from conceit or vanity
2 : propriety in dress, speech, or conduct

OK, this is a big pet peeve of mine, so I may sound a bit over the top.

You cannot use a dictionary this way. It is not meant for that kind of use. Especially when we are speaking about technical language. Modesty as understood theologically, specifically by the Catholic Church in this instance, often does not have much to do with everyday use.

And if you are going to try to use a dictionary this way, you cannot use a collegiate, abridged, pocket, desktop, or other shortened form. They never never give all the ways a word can be used - that is how they make them short. They also leave out most of the historical discussion which is important in understanding the use. THey do not discuss context.

If you must use a dictionary definition, use the Oxford English. You can find it at the library or maybe pay online for access. It will actually tell you all the ways the word can be used, and in what context.

But for our purposes here, I think the Catholic Church’s understanding of modesty is what is important.

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

 

[Vico]

Bluegoat, you said that you mean “Modesty as understood theologically” and have sent examples from the Catechism. And I agree that for this thread about pants vs dresses/skirts, those items you quoted are most appropriate. However seeking to call attention to oneself with hair, jewelry, and expensive items, also pertains to the ninth commandment (covetousness of wife).

The rule of modesty and sobriety are given by Paul (Rhiems) 1 Timothy 2:9-10:

9 In like manner, women also in decent apparel: adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety, not with plaited hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly attire: 10 But, as it becometh women professing godliness, with good works.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

**“1838 **Temperance moderates the attraction of the pleasures of the senses and provides balance in the use of created goods.”

**“2407 **In economic matters, respect for human dignity requires the practice of the virtue of temperance, so as to moderate attachment to this world’s goods; …”

 

[Bluegoat]

Bluegoat, you said that you mean “Modesty as understood theologically” and have sent examples from the Catechism. And I agree that for this thread about pants vs dresses/skirts, those items you quoted are most appropriate. However seeking to call attention to oneself with hair, jewelry, and expensive items, also pertains to the ninth commandment (covetousness of wife).

The rule of modesty and sobriety are given by Paul (Rhiems) 1 Timothy 2:9-10:

9 In like manner, women also in decent apparel: adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety, not with plaited hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly attire: 10 But, as it becometh women professing godliness, with good works.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

**“1838 **Temperance moderates the attraction of the pleasures of the senses and provides balance in the use of created goods.”

**“2407 **In economic matters, respect for human dignity requires the practice of the virtue of temperance, so as to moderate attachment to this world’s goods; …”

Your biblical quote is speaking about womens dress in general, and specific ways it can go wrong. It is not talking about the same thing.

I think you are misunderstanding the use of the word temperance in the other quotes. Modesty is being described as a type of temperance. Appropriate adornment also is a type of temperance. But that doesn’t make them identical.

 

[Vico]

Bluegoat, for clarity, you are saying that modesty is not a synonym for appropriate adornment. However being modest does involve wearing appropriate adornment.

 

[rudy792]

Thank You my friend - and all Brother’s and Sister’s here, since this thread has become futile on both sides - it should be done away with. Jesus is onto us for sure. Praise His Holy Name, how He has saved us worms from the utter destruction we could face. I don’t believe in a group hug or any false show, but forgiveness. I don’t even think we should all tolererate each other’s opinions, just our right to them. The day is very, very soon coming when we will all answer for each of these words.And this issue will be cleared up plainly for all ears by the One Just Judge.

Love in Jesus and Mary, Sean

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

. I don’t even think we should all tolererate each other’s opinions, just our right to them. The day is very, very soon coming when we will all answer for each of these words.And this issue will be cleared up plainly for all ears by the One Just Judge.

Very well said…and it took over 400 posts for it to be said. Thank you…

 

[rudy792]

Thank You my dear Sister - and as you stated above that you are my elder (me being 45) I would not myself to have presumed to have been so rude to you as others have on this post- another thing taught to us customarily in the Church which seems to have been lost in the passage of time - respect, humility, etc. You sound like a lady that I would be happy to learn from and know.
-Thank You and this day I pray is a great experience in the Lord for You. Have a good Mass. Love, Sean

 

[Poetess_Kera]

I apologize if this is considered reviving a dead thread, but I have a question for all of you who believe that women wearing pants and/or having short hair is immodest, too manly, or wrong in some other way.

I’m recovering from an eating disorder. My hair has fallen out so many times that the only way it looks clean and orderly is for it to be short. I also live in Canada, and I’m sorry, but you will be hard-pressed to find a woman wearing a dress or skirt even in the summer because it’s so cold here. Am I in the wrong for this? I’m truly curious as to how you would evaluate my particular situation, seeing as how you’re against one or both of these fashions.

Also, what about Saint Joan of Arc, who wore men’s clothing for the very purpose of remaining pure, chaste, and modest? She kept her hair short as a way of staying faithful to God, rather than a man. Saint Catherine of Siena also cut her hair short for this reason.

Also, please remember:

1 Samuel 16:7 (King James Version)

But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Pax Christi.

 

[rudy792]

Hello friend - You surely make some good points, and I would believe that your situation is, of course, exceptional in any case. The Lord looks on the heart, not on the outward apppearance. Still I think we both agree that taken to it’s furthest ends then dressing radically (say, like a prostitute, etc.) would be acceptable. We know that this verse shows that the outward appearance of things is not that which pleases the Lord, but it certainly could displease Him. “Doesn’t nature itself tell You, that if a man have long hair it is a shame to him, but if a woman have long hair it is a glory to her, for her hair is given to her for a covering”. I am agreeing with you, definitely. Your points are really excellent. I just want to believe and obey the entirety of scripture. I do despise those - “it was for that culture” or “it was only during that time frame that this verse applies” arguments. It just seems to me to be arguing against God. A verse of Holy Writ is only restricted to a time period if strong evidence of Scripture itself tells us that it is restricted. These “time frame” arguments are what many utilize to decry the Trinity and the necessity of Baptism or the Lord’s Prayer, etc. We should just humbly pray and read and watch and ask the Lord - what is it that You are really saying to me in this passage, and obey it to the last drop of our blood if necessary. Let God tell us what is right and not each other. Although it is good to get each other’s opinions on things. I like what you have to say. You make a complex argument into some simple truths.
-God Bless, Sean

 

[Bluegoat]

I apologize if this is considered reviving a dead thread, but I have a question for all of you who believe that women wearing pants and/or having short hair is immodest, too manly, or wrong in some other way.

I’m recovering from an eating disorder. My hair has fallen out so many times that the only way it looks clean and orderly is for it to be short. I also live in Canada, and I’m sorry, but you will be hard-pressed to find a woman wearing a dress or skirt even in the summer because it’s so cold here. Am I in the wrong for this? I’m truly curious as to how you would evaluate my particular situation, seeing as how you’re against one or both of these fashions.

Also, what about Saint Joan of Arc, who wore men’s clothing for the very purpose of remaining pure, chaste, and modest? She kept her hair short as a way of staying faithful to God, rather than a man. Saint Catherine of Siena also cut her hair short for this reason.

Also, please remember:

1 Samuel 16:7 (King James Version)

But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Pax Christi.

I think that the Catholic Church is pretty clear in what it says about women wearing pants and having short hair. That is, it’s ok. But if all the men who claim otherwise grow beards, I will reconsider.

 

[rudy792]

I was today thinking of a beard. I have not had one since 1984. I do not think I can bear it well.
-S